Math vs. Philosophy.......

<p>"I don't like this response. All majors teach you how to think, so please don't extol Philosophy as if it is the only smart major out there. Philosophy FORCES you to think, whereas some other majors are doable with a limited amount of brain work. But then again, one can always go beyond what is required and think more, which makes all majors equal. So if you're a non-philosophy major and you think those philosophy kids are smarter than you, then you're probably not going full-out in your own major."</p>

<p>I think you're missing something a little key here. Much of philosophical study deals with exactly how we think, and the nature of the mind and reality. So it's not so much "teaching you how to think" but teaching you "what is thinking".</p>

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I think you're missing something a little key here. Much of philosophical study deals with exactly how we think, and the nature of the mind and reality. So it's not so much "teaching you how to think" but teaching you "what is thinking".

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There's a difference. Epistemology, which is a discipline of philosophy, is the study of analyzing knowledge itself--including how we acquire it. This is the same as what is thinking because the thoughts you have are a result of the knowledge you have. Exactly how we think, as in the specific biological processes, is cognitive and neurological science.</p>

<p>Logic is incredibly helpful for giving us a framework and process in which we can learn more efficient and studied methods of how to think, but it's arguable as to whether or not people need it. I'd say logic would be helpful for most people, but most of the more capable people have already developed their own internal logic that they are unaware of, or else they would not be capable people.

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To understand philosophy, is to understand's one's existence.

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This is incorrect. Existence--and identity--are disciplines within philosophy that would generally be filed under metaphysics.</p>

<p>Philosophy, as we know it as an academic program at the undergraduate level, is largely split into two parts: an introduction to logic and epistemology, which essentially form the foundation of your ability to interpret most philosophical texts, and an introduction to the thinkers and the movements. There is nothing beyond this, there should be nothing beyond this, undergraduates should not be presenting theories when they do not fully understand the field. It's all an analysis of what has come before, because the foundation of knowledge and logic has been developed and there is no point in trying to force every 22 year old philosophy major into reinventing the wheel.</p>

<p>Half of this thread has been trolling, a quarter has been stupidity and the last quarter has been written in some kind of moon language that I can't decipher, so I feel like I need to explain what the hell the reality is for the three people who are reading this thread and who are not escaped mental patients.</p>

<p>Historically, mathematics was a branch of philosophy in the same way that existentialism was. Philosophy was responsible for the development of logic (although that could be argued in reverse--that the logic and understanding derived from logic became its own discipline and came to take on the title of philosophy), mathematics is logic, and, with the exception of basic pattern recognition that was responsible for counting, philosophy predates mathematics. Philosophers were mathematicians, and they developed the vast majority of our knowledge on the topic of mathematics. Mathematicians themselves did not exist--they were philosophers, philosophers who happened to focus on the topics we now consider within the field of mathematics (or physics, or, to a certain extent, computer science). Philosophy evolved, like it should, and mathematics became a well-defined field just like philosophy initially did--it essentially became the king of quantitative sciences, which is what it should be, because the rigor of mathematics is something other sciences can only dream to achieve.</p>

<p>The rigor of the arguments in mathematics only first came from Euclid, who existed fairly far along our little historical time-line, and his introduction of mathematical deductive reasoning, which is different from the reasoning in philosophy because the questions philosophy raises often cannot be proved empirically and what we know now as philosophical theorems must be presented differently as a result, was a part of the development of logical reasoning--development that occurred within the field of philosophy, which is what mathematics once was. In the same way criminology would have never existed without sociology, mathematics would have never existed in the way it does today without the developments that occurred within philosophy.</p>

<p>To bring us up to date, philosophy is essentially logic, as learned through reading the works of prior philosophers, that extends into the theories that resulted from the application of logical reasoning. From a pragmatic stand-point it's an incredibly useful major if you intend to enter law, because most of the foundations of law come from ethics, and ethics is a part of philosophy. Other than that, I'm not sure how useful it is. It's useful if you want to try and understand the "greater" things in a context other than one that is mathematical, I suppose in the same way history is useful if you want to learn... about history. It's probably useful because it teaches you to digest an incredible amount of sometimes painfully dull information which can directly correlate to a life in business and finance, but having philosophy as your primary major can make the job search a pain in the ass.</p>

<p>I am just a freshmen in undergrad with little math background, so my opinion is already nothing compared to all of you...ha...but my deductive logic class (philosophy 205) is math like you've never seen. Proofs, Copi style proofs, venn diagrams, quantifacational logic, truth-functional logic...it is all math related. If you take predicate logic 305, you construct proofs to prove addition and arithmetic. 2 + 2 = 4 can be proven by a sophisticated logic system. It is sweet stuff. I think alot of the people on this topic are understanding philosophy to just be the result of some old guy's musing over life. While this is partially accurate, many branches of philosophy, particularly logic and metaphysics...but mostly logic form the foundation of math. The guy who established a proof system for addition used 5 axioms that were derived from logical deductions. Logic, my friends is math...or shall I say math is logic. They are so closely related it is ridiculous. At my school...Top 50 undergrad...philosopy majors score the second highest on the GMAT, second highest on GRE, and third highest on LSAT. The only majors that score higher on average are mathematics and (go figure), physics. Philosophy is awesome. I hope to double major with it and poli sci and then ace the freakin LSAT. I think philosophy is invaluable. Look how many high ranking politicians studied philosophy. This doesn't make it the best, but it is useful and can provide you with a certain way of thinking that is useful in all types of careers.</p>

<p>Philosophers live, think, and die. What they leave is the cultural legacy which constitutes the very essence of our civilization, western civilization.
Think philosophers in this way, they are the keepers of the cultural knowledge our ancestors have passed to us. They seek to improve and pass down those knowledge to common people like you and me. In a sense, they are like enzymes along the DNA strains. Philosophy is the building block of the western civilization. You may also view philosophies as the external memory for the humanity. Inside the works of philosophers, you see the cultural memories of the humanity.
I agree with you that philosophers are dead in today's world. As confirmed by various philosophers that PHILOSOPHY IS DEAD (Nietzsche, Heidegger, Derrida, Wittgenstein all agreed on that) but that does not mean philosophy is meaningless.
Thousand of years ago, blind poet like Homer went from home to home to tell a story in order to survive. Due to the lack of literacy, Homer became the only one who posses poetic abilities; therefore, he was respected as the MAN. Likewise, in ancient world, philosophers were privileged by their ability to utilize rhetoric to convince others of the world's goods and bads.
Sadly, like Shaman priest, philosophers in today's world are no longer privileged with the conservation and the education of the cultural memories, instead, they are replaced by cameras, news organizations, and computer data bases. Therefore, philosophers' status in America are deteriorating year after year. More and more people in the future are going to view philosophers of our age as some sort of saints, or prophets, just like how we view Muhammad and Jesus as prophets or saints. Worse, philosophers do not even have the social function of a priest. A priest maintains social order by selling divine lies, while a philosopher has nothing to sell in contemporary societies beside *****ing about the world, what they call:"Critical theory, critique on metaphysics of presence, normative ethnics blah blah blah"
But we do see something missing here... namely, the myth of a philosopher, the beautiful narrative philosophers once created, the utopias philosophers envisioned, and endless dreams philosophers had carved for humanity.
What is philosophy but a fairy tale that is passing away as I convert my idea to computer image and then forever store it in computer data base......</p>

<p>Society no longer needs myth and myth tellers, it only needs technicians. As for those who dare to dream, poverty, McDonalds, and Talibans(which based their ideas off Islamic philosophies) are out there waiting for them..</p>

<p>It is really sad to see that we as a society no longer respects high school teachers, or teachers in general. People no longer concern them as honorable professions, but rather, people consider teaching as an alternative to McDonalds. More and more professors today focus their energies on RESEARCHING, that is, bring some goddamn money to the university~~~instead of educating, like Plato and Aristotle did in the past....
lame~~~ </p>

<p>Lastly, for those people who think political science or all liberal arts in general are "sciences." That's because anglo-saxon badasses are obsessed with logic and useless mathematic formulas to predict an otherwise unpredictable universe... The tyranny of logic and mathematics and other useful stuff have reduced the art of rhetoric, modern art, expression, and history into nothing. </p>

<p>Scientists don't read histories, they don't need histories, they don't need philosophers to tell them about histories, for histories and philosophies are interpretations of "fact"(let's not start a debate on the meaning of fact, i hate start epistemological discussion with regards to subjectivity vs objectivity). What they need is DATA, real DATA, objectified DATA, a cold piece of DATA without a touch of human brilliance.
Scientists instead have created for us a new vision. A forever stabilized utopia without regard to the irony of the laws of the universe. Global warming is just one little warning our planet has for the scientists' ignorance towards our unpredictable universe....
I don't hate scientists.. I hate people impose science on everything and everything that has a science on top of it becomes prudish and "useful."
Like marketing major, business major, social SCIENCES major.....</p>

<p>I’m a philosophy major (and an economics major too)!</p>

<p>Nice necro.</p>

<p>i’m not entirely sure how i stumbled across this almost6 year old thread, but here’s “my 2 cents”</p>

<p>not to sound pretentious or arrogant, but i’m a little bit unsettled that some people consider calculus to be the penultimate math course in terms of both difficulty and applicability. i’m fairly confident that the math topics tackled by math major–and especially those earning a PhD in the field-- are vastly more difficult than calc… And just because engineers don’t use these branches of math doesn’t make them useless. Most engineering majors I know do not take the highest levels of English courses, but that doesn’t make them useless either. The people who take the highest level math courses are math majors, and they apply them outside the field of engineering.</p>

<p>Regarding the initial question: I agree that high-level math is very similar to philosophy, and I think that studying them together would be very beneficial. In fact, I can’t think of any combination that would result in a stronger foundation in logic and reasoning.</p>

<p>Would you care to elaborate on that combination, Infinite? I’m considering a double major in econ and phil myself.</p>

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<p>I am living well, thanks!</p>

<p>First, towards the argument that mathematics is a branch of philosophy: I have to disagree. Rather, I would make the argument that first-order logic is the fundamental study which acts as the foundation of both mathematics and philosophy, that is, separate from both, but a common base nonetheless. Logic is clearly critical to mathematics; hell, the entire body of mathematics can be derived from nothing more than first-order logic and axiomatic set theory (second-order logic).</p>

<p>Next point, the idea that Calculus is the “penultimate” mathematical study. Sooo…The infinitesimal calculus, as it is properly called, is actually a specific body of techniques which are at the basis of a much broader and more rigorous field known as Real Analysis. Oh, and that Algebra that you learned in high school? Yes, that too gets abstracted beyond your wildest dreams in the field of Linear Algebra (when properly taught), and abstracted further still in the field of Abstract Algebra, which itself has a multitude of subfields (no pun intended) including Group Theory and Ring Theory; of course, the mathematician with an insatiable need to abstract still higher can study that which is known as Category Theory. On the other hand, there is also Measure Theory and Topology, both heavily a part of formalized Calculus, but also fields in their own rights that cross over into other fields, such as Algebraic Topology. Note that we haven’t even touched on Geometry, which goes FAR beyond that which is taught in high school, often crossing with Linear Algebra (especially in areas such as Computer Graphics, although that’s more properly Computer Science), and sometimes with multivariate Calculus in Differential Geometry. Then there are the discrete maths: Number Theory, Combinatorics, Graph Theory, Order Theory. Oh, and let’s not forget about Probability, which dives into both the discrete maths AND the continuous ones such as Calculus. Advanced probability theory can lend itself to heavily applications of Real Analysis and deals in terms of random variables and stochastic processes. This all doesn’t even INCLUDE some of the more esoteric fields of mathematics: Knot Theory, Fractal Geometry, etc, etc, etc. These are all advanced mathematical topics which lie beyond the domain of simple calculus.</p>

<p>My position: Mathematics may have begun in philosophy, but it has since moved far beyond it and has surpassed it. Philosophy may seek the truth in the universe, but Mathematics finds it and proves it beyond doubt. Also…sorry to say this…but Mathematics serves the world far better than philosophy does. Even the most purely theoretical areas of mathematics find applications: Cryptography makes great use of number theory, quantum Physics makes use of Linear Algebra and Tensors, Biology makes use of ribbon theory, Computer Science makes use of almost all of it. My advice to so-called philosophers: Everybody thinks about life. At some point, you need to stop thinking about it and start living it.</p>

<p>I will read all these ten pages eventually. But I have just a few things to say first of all. I was a philosophy major last year in college and I took a few classes, joined some philosophy forums, talked in a few discussion circles. It was helpful at first, it opened my mind and allowed me to think about things deeper. But afterawhile it became more of a nuisance than actually helping, and that came at the point that I was trying to actually live my life rather than think about it. Leo Tolstoy noted this in his book Anna Karenina when he described Karenin. Karenin is an astounding intellectual in the book who is well versed in philosophy, politics, and theology and could argue a point to the tee with grace. But he couldn’t even keep his wife Anna and was totally inept at dealing with her adultery. Tolstoy noted how Karenin was great at reflecting on life but horrible at actually living it. And that’s what I found, I found out that no matter how smart and intellectual I was in the discussion circle I still had bad grades in my science classes, suffered from loneliness, and had a miserable time at school. So I ditched philosophy and studied something more productive, like biochemistry and math which I’m happy to say is helping me much more. No longer do I have to waste time in philosophy classes talking about what makes a thing a thing and whether reliabilism is preferable to externalism or whatever. I’m actually learning stuff at a fast pace and can accomplish things that are readily recognized by all. The philosophy profs at my school are great I admit but a lot of philosophy majors I have met simply chose that major because they thought it was cool and easy and talk about random stuff. They philosophize without a purpose with no intention to accomplish something in the real world and that’s what I hate now about philosophy majors that it makes me sick sometimes to look at them. I’ve studied some philosophy so I know what I’m talking about when I say that any philosopher who philosophizes without a purpose is simply absolutely stupid. But the same can go for sciences and math as well.</p>

<p>I mostly agree with dkatz. I don’t want to be too harsh on philosophy though, it has it’s benefits in certain times and places. Also biology uses ribbon theory? I would like to check that out.</p>

<p>I am a high school senior, and I stumbled upon this thread. Although I have not read every page, I would like to comment and share my thoughts on Philosophy versus Mathematics. I believe they both have practical and abstract implications; I believe their focuses are not the same and that their roots are very different, so the schools of thought should not be competing. One is not “better” than the other. Not all knowledge is as strong as its counterpart, either. It is objective. I think the nature of this debate entangles something that philosophy addresses: that there are different ways to know things. Emotion, reason, perception, and language are taught under IB Theory of Knowledge, but this does vary. Our opinions on which is more applicable/valuable/hardest/most essential are influenced by the factors mentioned above. Do we have an emotional connection with one of the subjects; does studying a subject or being successful in that stud sway our response; are there language barriers that influence our understanding of each subject; how do practical and abstract theories relate; etc?</p>

<p>The nature of mathematics is based on intangible concepts and rules we cannot prove. It is imperfect by design. We assume things in mathematics to be true only because they have practical value in society. For example, we do not definitively know that 0 exists. Or that numbers exist. We think they are real or at least there because we use what they represent. But what would nothing be to the store keeper without 0? Therefore, it is useful so we except that 0 exists even thought we can have perfect knowledge of 0. As we know, there is no proof for an axiom, and every area of knowing (like math, english, the arts) have axioms, or assumptions, used to practice and understand that school of thought. The core of mathematics- or any subject- is based in axioms, not logic. This is different from philosophy (not necessarily better or worse, just different by design).</p>

<p>Philosophy is how do we know what we know, and how do we know that our knowledge is valid. Mathematics examines only one spectrum of that question: empirical knowledge. Because mathematics is a branch under philosophy, we can answer that question IN TERMS OF mathematics, but that is only one perspective of what we know as reality. </p>

<p>Philosophy is practical because it questions the world and what we know about it. It looks at the big picture, and all the shades in between. Just my two cents.</p>

<p>For study comparison sake, my wife is a Philosophy major and hates math. She did the minimum req in college, but took her first phil class (also a req for the school) and she couldn’t stop.</p>

<p>Philosophy and mathematics are so intertwined.</p>

<p>It depends on what variety of philosophy. My wife was also a philosophy major, studying logic and philosophy of mathematics (particularly the nature of proofs in mathematics and axioms of mathematics). After her degree in Philosophy, she obtained an M.S. in Mathematics. I will admit that it is possible to be a mathematician without studying formal philosophy (I did that…), but I have to admit that the philosophy courses gave a lot of writing practice which I probably could have used…</p>

<p>Zerox, Zerx2, SSJ2 and SSJ4 are the same person. And the MIT thing isn’t true if you look back at Zerox’s college history. Admin clean this guy up please, if he’s still on CC?</p>

<p>Yeah, its an old thread, but its worth it. Life is too short to not pursue a dream when you have the chance. If you are worried about ‘getting a job’, build up skills in the areas you might like to work. Read, take electives, pursue a minor or certificate. Plenty of peeps here have said it - there are no guarantees.</p>

<p><a href=“http://philosophy.cornell.edu/upload/Best-Majors-for-GRE-Scores-in-2013-2.pdf”>http://philosophy.cornell.edu/upload/Best-Majors-for-GRE-Scores-in-2013-2.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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