I heard recently of a study, admittedly very small, that asked questions of college men. When they asked, “have you raped anyone in the past time period” the answer was very low, when they asked “have you had forcible sexual intercourse in the past time period” the answer suddenly jumped way up!
I know, the Devil’s in the details, but I thought it was an interesting peek into the rape culture mindset. Here are the same men, committing rape, but unable to admit that to themselves unless different words are used. They clearly don’t know what the definition of rape is and therefore they are comfortable in not thinking they are rapists.
@cardinalfang, I would be interested to hear your take on the difference in the numbers of “incapacitated rape” and “forcible rape” in girls before they entered college and then after freshmen year. As I think we have established in prior posts, I am no mathematician, but it appears that if this survey is at all accurate, more girls are raped before college than during freshman year.
As far as the methodology, the lawyer in me is compelled to point out that phrases like “the tactic of incapacitation” seems awful squishy. I am also always leery of definitions of rape or sexual assault that includes attempted oral penetration, unless the qualifier “with a sex organ” is included, which I do not think it is here. Otherwise, an unwelcome attempt at a French kiss fits the definition. I also am not a fan of asking how many times something has happened rather than did it happen.
I am blown away by the body shaming. And wondering how it relates to a discussion of rape. Rape is a violation of a woman’s autonomy of her body. What about fat insults? Does this all tie together somehow?
Like I said yesterday “Big Fat Liar” and “Pretty Little Liar” were a “teen” movie and a “teen” TV show that fits loosely - culturally and were simply expressions used by the poster artist. I think the posters had nothing to do with Lena being “fat” or Emma being “pretty”…and everything to do with the pop culture titles of that TV show and the movie.
One, I refuse to accept the premise that the only valid discussion is the one Emma wants to have. This situation is not about rape, but about an individual’s consistent and flagrant attempt to destroy another’s life. The accuser has been caught out in statements and behavior inconsistent with the contemporaneous record, and the organs of our society charged with adjudicating these questions have found no merit in her accusations. And still she is celebrated in her efforts to destroy this guy by a sitting USSenator and one of the world’s leading universities. Second, calling someone a big fat liar is a colloquialism that has been used for decades to describe less than truthful individuals of both sexes. It is only “body shaming” in the context of our current hyper offended culture. And rape is bad. So is falsely accusing someone of rape. Calling someone fat is juvenile. The fact that this is a distinction that even needs to be explained makes me shudder for the future of our culture.
"It is only “body shaming” in the context of our current hyper offended culture. And rape is bad. So is falsely accusing someone of rape. Calling someone fat is juvenile. The fact that this is a distinction that even needs to be explained makes me shudder for the future of our culture. "
“But I believe that freedom goes both ways and the guy should be allowed to walk around with a sign saying Mattress Girl is a big fat ugly slut.”
???
Not big fat liar, a possible colloquialism or a pop culture reference (though lots of those references are examples of rape culture) but a “big fat ugly slut”
Well, in that regard, she may have helped in an ironic way. She lost twice in proving sexual misconduct. Thus, if anything, she illustrated quite nicely what rape is not. Therefore, agreed, that might be a good thing, i.e., fewer fake claims. There are females seeing her texts, actions, etc. and thinking twice about what they charge.
And no one wants to shut up her advocacy, as she can advocate for whatever she wants; what people object to is her insincerity. In her own words, she stated she would carry the mattress until Paul got expelled (after losing twice). It was a personal smear with groupthink adults attaching themselves to her. These adults used her well. I give them that.
I agree with post #343 by @northwesty insofar as he says lack of proof is frequently a problem. Like everyone else, I don’t know what transpired. But if at any point she said no and he continued, then it was rape even if it can never be proven. I think one can be sorry for whatever trauma she suffered, without passing judgment on anyone’s veracity. And I think she should be able to carry around whatever she wants–for any reason, or for no reason–so long as it doesn’t have his name on it. And if he feels he is bearing the weight of Columbia’s mistakes, he can carry around a barbell or whatever he wants.
Edit as to post #367. If a prosecutor declines to bring charges, the victim hasn’t “lost.” It is the state that brings a criminal case. The victim merely testifies. In this case she never had the opportunity to testify in court.
I am not sure what is behind it @ahl but my best guess is that people resort to that sort of thing when they have run out of arguments and are being beaten intellectually. So they direct the conversation to something subjective (a woman’s looks) rather than responding substantively to her point. Or maybe these people actually believe that the only value women place on themselves is in their physical beauty. So they hit where they think it will have the most impact. I do think that was the intent with the Dunham posters. And I found it rather cowardly that they hide behind the very posters of the women they so disdain rather than “owning” their protest.
I do wonder though how these types of guys measure up themselves? Are they Patrick Warburtons or just the “average joe” taking pot shots at women?
^Is it another way of dehumanizing women? Just another example? I just have this glimmer of a sense there must be a connection when that is the response.
I am sorry for beating up on you Ohiodad. This is not unique to you. It’s pervasive.
@awcntdb, of course we were talking about the posters, not my example, but whatever. You want to make the argument that calling someone a rapist is ok but calling them a fat, ugly slur is not? Fine. I am comfortable on my side of that argument. Are you?
@harvestmoon1, generally, people who are winning the intellectual argument don’t resort to ripping down posters and refusing to answer questions. But we agree that people losing the intellectual argument try and channel the discussion into subjective areas, like whether someone believes they were raped, or whether a colloquialism is body shaming.
@alh, I am fine. Deconstruct away. I’ll stick to the premise that there is an utter refusal to appreciate the difference between a systematic effort to destroy someone’s life and calling somebody fat.
Too funny. Who cares who they are? They aren’t promoting themselves…they are promoting something they have an issue with – that women sometimes lie about rape and when women lie about rape it hurts someone else. I would hope that you aren’t saying they have no “right” to push “their” agenda? But I guarantee you they probably aren’t doing any degree of the naval gazing and speculating like some are doing on this topic and there was no deep dark discussion about an underlying meaning nor would I guess they feel “beaten down”. Have you never worked with men before? - they are direct, they come to the point and unless their job requires deep analyzing as a core competency, they tend not to get themselves into analysis paralysis.
well this will really be off-topic… but just can’t help myself…
MOTB: I hang out with men who do literary theory, though I think that may be an old-fashioned name for the type literary analysis people do these days. So my stereotypical male is different than yours. Again, living in the bubble here.
Really? Well when I “promote” something I am willing to put my name behind it. That’s what one does when you believe in something. They have every right to promote whatever agenda they so desire but don’t expect it to be taken seriously when you aren’t willing to put your name to it and resort to calling people “fat.”
And yes actually I have worked with men. My whole career - the only female member of a 14 member in-house legal staff for 12 of those years. And being direct, coming to a point and not over analyzing is not particular to men. Sad if that is what you are thinking.
“Wow, that’s really twisting her performance art. The piece was called “Carry That Weight,” not “Get Him Off Campus.” It wasn’t about him. It was about her, and her belief that she was assaulted, and was carrying the weight of her assault.”
Fang – See Emma’s words below “until her rapist is expelled or leaves”:
“Sulkowicz’ senior thesis, titled “Mattress Performance” or “Carry That Weight,” is a literal expression of that emotional weight. In what she calls an endurance art piece, she will drag her mattress everywhere she goes on campus until her rapist is expelled or leaves. The project, she says, could extend for one day or for the entire remainder of her time at Columbia.”