Maybe it's a little of that and a little of this....

Parents Forum
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<p>Disagreement</p>

<p>While we're all in the mood to bare our souls and listen carefully, I'd like to share a quick thought on disagreement. </p>

<p>Sometimes I feel like the agreements on this board are more readily welcomed than the disagreements. How many threads start with "So and so is right" or "I agree with so and so" or "Well said so and so!". We can all appreciate the value of support and reinforcement of what we believe is right. </p>

<p>I am one who voices opinion or references conflicting facts when I disagree. I don't do it because I want to argue. When I am firm in my opinion or know somethng to be true, I really don't find the need to argue with someone esle's opinion. BUT, I worry (really worry) about the lurkers. There are way more people who lurk here than post. And, I bet most of the lurkers are new to the process, unsure of what to think of much of what's posted, unsure of themselves as they move through college applications, etc. So, when I read a post that I disagree with, I wonder how many lurkers either disagree or have already taken a different approach. If they've taken a different approach, I worry that they'll feel like they've done something wrong because NOBODY else disagreed with the poster. I can just imagine some mom out there, fumbling her way through this process for the first time, hands shaking as posters all agree with one school of thought, which conflicts with what she has done. Meanwhile, all of us who disagree and have success stories to tell about doing it different, remain silent because we don't want to appear argumentative or hurt someone's feelings by disagreeing. </p>

<p>Most of the posters on this board think differently from me. I'm usually in the minority on my opinions. But, for me, that doesn't translate to silence. Despite my minority view, I've raised a fabulous child who has overcome odds that most would have said were insurmountable. So, I don't view my school of thought as wrong....it's just different. And, I'm vocal because I want to be the voice for those who are silently watching and worrying that they're doing it wrong because they haven't marched to the popular beat. </p>

<p>I think the disagreements are often more important that the agreements. </p>

<p>Some may disagree, which is great:)</p>

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<p>But Momsdream, how do you feel when people belittle your accomplishments, especially the ones about URM hegemony? It would make me mad. Most of the disagreements here are about fundamental issues that people feel very strongly about. Maybe that's the disadvantage of an internet forum.</p>

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<p>Another example would be when people say students at Swarthmore are wierd. I mean, how could anyone see it that way? (I am just arguing my case, I know fullly well people can easily see it that way). I don't have time to argue endlessly with people and I don't have Marite's gifts of logical discourse, so I just give up and say 'You are entitled to your opinion' and gnash my teeth.</p>

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<p>achat, speaking of Swathmore, a school I hold in high regard, BTW,this story demonstrates the challenges with the BB medium. </p>

<p>I made a comment and referred to it as Swaaaaathmore. The student thought I was likening it to Haaaarvard with the connotation of uppityness, he also thought I was funny for that. In reality, as a middle aged person, I need bi-focals to read and no glasses for normal sight....unfortunatly the computer screen falls in between so the aaaaa was just a typo I couldn't see to catch.</p>

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<p>I do agree that disagreements are more important than agreements. It's just that sometimes it is too intense because these are our kids and we are discussing life-issues not things that are peripheral.</p>

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<p>achat-</p>

<p>I know what you mean....and I've taken a few low shots over the past year + on CC. The URM thing doesn't really get to mee too much because (here I go, sorry if I offend) my experience has shown me that most people who think that URMs are inferior have little exposure and are usually first or second generation out of the trailer park. In my mind, they are automatically reduced to "don't know any better and were poorly raised" and I move on. I feel the same way about blacks who devalue whites or make racist comments. When you're bi-racial (as I am), you learn coping skills to disconnect from that madness....because it comes at your form all angles. But, that's another topic.</p>

<p>Ther are other recurring events on here that make me itch. And, it's not like I feel personally attacked, just that the "community" is attacked. Maybe it's the wanna-be Quaker in me.....feeling the need to be more inclusive and less exclusive. For instance, the whole Ivy vs. HYPSM vs. HYP vs. HY vs. Selective College. </p>

<p>Ever noticed how there's an attempt to get this group of schools to become more and more exclusive by some? Ivy? Nah, that's not good enough. Not all of those schools are elite enough! HYPSM? Nah, no good either. Some of them aren't even Ivies! HYP....ok, we're getting closer. HY, even better....close enough! </p>

<p>Ok, HY is it. When we talk about selective schools, let's use HY. I mean, really.....why not just use the name of one of those two schools instead of using HY, like it's the name of some club? </p>

<p>Who was it that recently said that using the term Ivy was the sign of people who weren't educated (or whatever)? What does that mean? Does it mean that the Ivies aren't selective enough? What is the mark of selectivity? Perhaps we need to define that at the top of this webpage....."Any school with a less than 10% acceptance rate is selective, all others should refrain from using the term "selective".</p>

<p>So, I can say that all of this assumptive segregation is annoying to me. I like th idea of using the term "selective" to describe a group of schools....but I don't really know what "selective" is. And, for some, using that term might not be good enough. I don't get that. I think we should either group them or let them stand on their own. I don't think it's that important to separate them into subsets of ultra-selectivity. It's like the OCD of college selection.....breaking them down, again and again and again. </p>

<p>Some may feel like that's a belittlement of their child's accomplishment. If so, they should ignore me and continue to use HY(P)(SM) & Ivy or whatever.</p>

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<p>doddsmom:
I thought you provided a pertinent and professional bit of advice on the "gifted" thread. You and your husband have been great contributors to CC, but you've probably learned an annoying thing about this forum...which brings me to :</p>

<p>momsdream:

[quote]
Sometimes I feel like the agreements on this board are more readily welcomed than the disagreements.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think most people on here seem (sadly) desperate for validation of all kinds. It's gotten to the point where I can barely stand to read the forum anymore (much less post). I feel strongly about "spoiled" kids and over-indulgent parents - but it is a view that is rarely expressed on here, and most of the time I wouldn't DARE. I just worry about a society where kids are raised with such a huge sense of entitlement, or falsely believe that in the overall scheme of things their accomplishments are HUGE. Clearly, this is never a welcome point of view on here.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, a forum like this can't avoid helping most of us parents get WAY too involved in a process that first and foremost belongs to our kids - including all the unfairness, bumps and bruises, disappointments, embarrassments, and other crapola. This, of course, just feeds the "trophy kids" monster.</p>

<p>I'm as guilty of all that as so many others on here. Time for me to get a grip too.</p>

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<p>


You can always just hang out with me and doddsdad in "Sinner's Alley". We could use the support.</p>

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<p>"Sinner's Alley"--see you there at happy hour this Friday!</p>

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<p>Momsdream--I am glad you post. I agree that it is important to be able to express different points of view.</p>

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<p>I too enjoy the disagreements. It's the attacks on those with whom one disagrees that get difficult. Again, commenting on a general phenomenon, not attributing said phenomenon to anyone in particular. I hope you all continue to express your feelings. And in particular, as momsdream says, tell your stories of the results from the different approaches you have taken. Just because I nursed my kids past the age of walking and talking and am a lifelong Democrat doesn't mean I want them to be spoiled brats. When people who have a different background and approach than I explain their philosophies and then tell stories about the results of their philosophies I have one thing to say:</p>

<p>There is no better way to learn.</p>

<p>And I am here and everywhere I go in my life in order to learn.</p>

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<p>Thanks mstee. Likewise!</p>

<p>Agreed Alum. </p>

<p>If I agreed with what everyone was saying here on a daily basis, THAT would be a reason to go, as it would be the biggest waste of my time (and yours).</p>

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<p>I come from an era (Cenozoic, probably) when one did not go around expressing one's feelings in public, especially around strangers, so I tend to keep my feelings off the board, except when they are good ones about others, and an occasional lame joke. Even when my feelings were hurt by rejections from CC's most selective parties based on my insufficient stats and my being relegated to the Chuck E. Cheese party.</p>

<p>I also come from a milieu in which arguments about most everything were a common way of conducting a conversation. However, I don't have time to post arguments for or against a position or person, so I keep out of those here.</p>

<p>Those who express a concern that the tone of this board has been changing may have forgotten or been unaware of last year's eruptions with Mom101 and her daughter.</p>

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<p>dadofsam - LOL. Chuck E. Cheese - psychologically scarring:).</p>

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<p>Weenie, that was an excellent post, illustrates well my least favorite thing about my favorite site and is said more succinctly than I could say it. Fortunately some threads can be avoided completely and posters who rub the wrong way (Good Rubbing Gone Bad, cur!) can be bypassed. I wish I had listened to my kid, who never once got caught up in the "crapola" and just applied to the schools she wanted to. </p>

<p>Even when you are getting great information and the occasional good laugh, it's hard not to get swept along with the prevailing current. The last couple of weeks have seemed like whitewater rafting!</p>

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<p>I have recently been PM'ing some of the posters that I <em>thought</em> I had crossed swords with, and discovered an interesting result. When these heated discussions getting going, a reply to recent post may be construed as a reply to one's own post several pages back. Turns out I'm pretty forgettable - several posters didn't even remember my posts, LOL. Point is, you get weird sequencing issues when these things are going. </p>

<p>Like momsdream, I agree listening to other viewpoints is one of the important benefits of this forum. For this very reason, it behooves us all to present our facts, opinions and emotions as clearly as possible. This may mean that I, with my limited time resourses, have to make fewer replies so that I can provide sufficient foundation to my opinions. If you disagree with my arguements, that's fine, but I should at least make them in a reasonable fashion in the first place.</p>

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<p>"my experience has shown me that most people who think that URMs are inferior have little exposure and are usually first or second generation out of the trailer park. In my mind, they are automatically reduced to "don't know any better and were poorly raised" and I move on. "</p>

<p>I wish that were true because it would make my life a lot easier.</p>

<p>For the majority of my life, I have gone to school and lived in an overwhlemingly white environment. My experiences have taught me that due to the history of racism in this country , most people (including unfortunately URMs) think that URMs are inferior. </p>

<p>It is very hard to fight the images that one was brought up on. After all, until very recently, the media displayed nothing about URMs except negative things and history books did things such as justify racism. </p>

<p>For instance, I remember that when I was in high school, my history book claimed that slaves were happy on their plantations. This was in the north in the late 1960s!</p>

<p>I remember my school had a white exchange student from South Africa who got to talk to the school's social studies classes. In our classes, he explained that apartheid was justified because the nonwhite people in his country were not advanced enough or intelligent enough to have full privileges!. </p>

<p>My school was 99% white (I was one of only 5 blacks out of 1,500 students), upper middle class, one of the best public schools in NY State. That student's statements were allowed to stand. </p>

<p>One of my closest friends from college, who had attended a Quaker high school in Philadelphia was told by her teachers that she wasn't good enough to get into Harvard. She became the school's first student in recent memory to go to Harvard and afterward went to one of the country's top three music conservatories and then went to med school and became a Yale-educated surgeon. </p>

<p>For some fascinating insights into one's own unconscious prejudices, check out this site: <a href="https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/research/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>NSM, interesting. Since these situations stand out in your mind as being wrong, I assume you already had a foundation that taught you that these messages were ridiculous. Is this true? Or, did you believe any of this, at the time? </p>

<p>BTW, I still think the "trailer park" assumption might be useful. Sometimes the "trailer park" is more of a mentality than a reality. And, even if it isn't true, it gets me past any anger that might distract me, which is really all that matters when it comes right down to it. You can't change everyone's view or mentiality. You CAN change how you react to stupidity. </p>

<p>I'm more in favor of changing how we react, than worrying about educating idiot racists (black or white).</p>

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<p>Yes, I was getting at home the word that those messages were racist. The problem, however, was that I still was surrounded by messages -- TV (when I was young, the only black person on TV was, I think a maid) , radio (Amos and Andy), newspapers, books -- that were constantly giving racist messages, and with such an immersion, it was hard to always even identify what was racist and what was not.</p>

<p>Some of the racism was more subtle than what I previously described. For example, when I was about 8 and in Catholic school, at nap time, tne nun would read a book about a very stupid African "savage" boy who was constantly having to be bailed out of trouble by an angel named (I kid you not) "Wopsie."</p>

<p>I hated that story, although my classmates loved the book. I thought something was wrong with me for wanting to cringe and hide my face while the nun was reading the book. It was much later that I realized how racist the message was and how my reaction was very understandable and healthy.</p>

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<p>I, too, seem to have ruffled feathers when I don't agree or say something that isn't all warm and fuzzy. </p>

<p>I have also been thanked for some of my posts. </p>

<p>I do get overly frustrated sometimes and admit my posts are not the most eloquently written. But I do want to get my views across, even if they are in desagreement with the majority of poster. </p>

<p>From the movie the Big Chill</p>

<ul>
<li>Just wanta keep the conversation lively</li>
</ul>

<p>I will continue to say what I believe. I am much like Momsdream in that respect.</p>