<p>Over many, many threads, we've discussed the importance of GPA, MCAT scores, and ECs for med school admittance. </p>
<p>Some have said the importance is...</p>
<p>40% MCAT score
40% GPA (including GPA in the hard sciences)
20% ECs (like shadowing and the like)</p>
<p>Don't know if the above is generally true or not. If not, please correct. </p>
<p>**
But, my main question concerns the issue of course choices. ** We all know that there are about 9 or so "pre-med required courses" and that students can major in whatever they want as long as they include those classes. </p>
<p>But, what about a student's other course choices? Do those choices not really count at all except for being a grade in the GPA?</p>
<p>And, if they do count, how much would they count? A little? A lot? A tipping point if these extra courses are hard science? </p>
<p>My gut finds it hard to believe that those courses don't count for much during the admissions process except for their impact on GPA.</p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
<p>...on a related note, since HIPAA issues have become more important and many doctors are reluctant to have pre-med students shadow them because of fears of privacy violations, what other ECs would be appropriate?</p>
<p>I am a physician who went through that whole nightmare process of being an premed. I did not a thing about being a premed when I started undergrad and sort of stumbled my way through picking up scattered pieces of advice as I went along.</p>
<p>During medical school, I participated in the admissions process for our medical school. So I know exactly how it was done at one particular school. Of course that was a few years ago, and the process might have changed, but I doubt it. </p>
<p>Bottom line is that there is a formula that is used to calculate a score for each applicant. To make it to the table, you need minimum mcat and gpa. If you don’t make the cut off, then it does not matter what classes you took. Once the cut off is made, the applicants are then assessed individually on EC’s. </p>
<p>I can say with certainty that the type of classes taken has little merit. In fact, it seemed to me that most admissions officers gave more attention to those who did not take a bunch of premed science classes. That was evident in my medical class where we had tons of writers, engineers, accountants, etc. Less than half took the traditional premed route. This makes for interesting doctors, which admissions people like.</p>
<p>My advice is to have a student study what he or she enjoys studying, rather than take a bunch of science classes unless that is what interests him/her. Better chance of getting good grades in classes not stuffed with nervous premeds. </p>
<p>I sat in med school bored for my first two years because I did not know better and took a bunch of science classes which i then had to repeat in med school, with the same professors no less (ucsd for undergrad and med school).</p>
<p>My husband does med school admissions (though only the MD/PhD program) - he often finds students who majored (even if only temporarily) in something non-science-y more interesting than those with more typical backgrounds. For those who are also doing the PhD program as well though - science background and research are critical.</p>
<p>D1 is currently going thru the med school application process. (And D2 takes her MCAT in this summer.)</p>
<p>Among the people D1 consulted with in prepping for the process (our State U’s premed advising is lousy) was the dad of one her friends. He wrote the computer program that does the initial screening for med school applicants at our state medical school, sits on the admissions committee and he has 2 daughters in medical school/residency so he understands the process well. </p>
<p>There is a formula that is used to screen med school candidates–it looks only at GPA and MCAT. It doesn’t matter how difficult your coursework is, if your MCAT +GPA score doesn’t get past the computer screening program, you won’t go any farther in the process. Different school assign different relative weightings for GPA and MCAT and set different “go forward” thresholds.It’s only after you make thru the screening does an actual human being look at your essays, ECs, etc.</p>
<p>D1 has found that during the interview process, she has not been asked about her course choices at all. (She’s a physics and math double BS with research in high energy physics and a relatively weak 3.46 GPA and 36 MCAT.) Only one interviewer even brought her major/coursework up at all–and that was only in reference to something one of her LOR mentioned. </p>
<p>Undergrad course choices are more important at some schools and for some programs than others—for example MD/PhD and other dual degree programs. But regardless you still have to make it thru that initial computer screening process which doesn’t consider course choice at all.</p>
<p>One of the things that’s discussed in the Pre-Med forum on this site is interviews. Interviews will make or break you as candidate. You need excellent interpersonal skills, maturity, poise and the ability to engage your interviewer. Engaging your interviewer means you need something to talk about that isn’t about science, math, engineering or medical policy/politics. Non-science-y types often are more interesting since they have more areas to converse about.</p>
<p>As long as pre-med requirements are met, nobody cares. However, according to my D. Bio section of MCAT is based primarily on Physiology and Genetics (not required). In addtion, some Med. Schools started adding to their specific requirements. One on D’s list (accepted at this one) has added Anatomy and Biochem (the last is required by few others) after D. has applied. So D. had to drop one of her minors for that. So, basically you have to research specific requirements of each Medical school on the list and their acceptance of AP credits (if any).</p>
<p>…addition about interviews. They seems to be of secondary importance. As long as applicant is not complete anti-social hermit, he/she will do just fine even when they think that they fail. Cannot fail an interview, the Adcom seems to make decision based primarily on numbers and it appears state of residency (California is flooding whole country and somehow they seems to be better off compare to others, second to home state, at least it has been our perception which might be different from state to state)</p>
<p>if your MCAT +GPA score doesn’t get past the computer screening program, you won’t go any farther in the process. Different school assign different relative weightings for GPA and MCAT and set different “go forward” thresholds.It’s only after you make thru the screening does an actual human being look at your essays, ECs, etc.</p>
<p>Interesting about the initial “screening” done by machine and not humans. So, would that mean that there aren’t different GPA thresholds if you come from School Elite or you come from School Flagship? (I’m guessing not, but some seem to think so). Some swear that a 3.5 from an Ivy is better than a 3.9 from a flagship, but if the screening threshold won’t let an ivy 3.5 go further, then their argument fails. </p>
<p>Obviously, her MCAT is strong. But, because her GPA may not make the threshold for the “screening,” does that mean she doesn’t get “bonus points” for her good MCAT and won’t go forward for human review? Or does this mean she needs to be sure to apply to some schools that are more likely to accept a lower GPA? Just wondering.</p>
<p>^Applicant definitely needs to look at good match when applying and include good number of in-state Med. Schools. As of now, D. is accepted to few, all in-state, one of them is private. One OOS rejected her, another OOS put her on WL, yet another seems to be ignoring her (“under review”) while having applicants with exactly the same stats as D’s (including scores in every section of MCAT amazingly exactly the same), but in-state, accepted , and yet another OOS she is going to interview (much later response than in-state). According to D’s experience, in-state is the way to go, including few OOS matching applicant’s stats.</p>
<p>Our state only has 2 med schools (both are public), so our son will have to apply to OOS schools as well. But, his school does have a high success rate for med school acceptance (they probably weed heavily at orgo level…lol).</p>
<p>BTW…which test has the better correlation for MCAT success? ACT or SAT? Or would the correlation be the same?</p>
<p>And…dumb questions…</p>
<p>When do many/most med school acceptances come in? MiamiDAP’s D already has some. </p>
<p>And, when were the apps submitted? </p>
<p>And, were MCATs taken end of junior year, fall of senior year, or both?</p>
<p>If this fellow is to be believed then almost the entire first screening process at most schools is done via a computer algorithm. (He’s talked about attending several annual national conferences for people who develop these algorithms for med schools.) And there are no points for coming from an IVY vs. a public school–at least in the programs he wrote. </p>
<p>As far as D’s relatively low GPA screening her out–she got secondaries (which mean she passed the initial screening) everywhere she applied to so I guess her MCAT compensated for that. And she was just accepted in the first round at our state med school. (Yay! That really takes the pressure off.) She has more interviews coming up after the 1st of the year–including one at a dual degree program. (MD/MS in biomedical [device] engineering.)</p>
<p>Neither ACT or SAT seems to correlate particularly well for D1. Her standardized scores were above average, but not CC stellar. Her MCAT scores are much higher than either her SAT or ACT score might have predicted. Her general and physics GRE scores were OK, but not exceptional–although apparently good enough to get her accepted into a Top 20 Biophysics grad program 2 years ago. I will have a second data point when D2 takes her MCAT in Sept 2011.</p>
<p>D1 is a non-trad. She didn’t decide she wanted to go to medical school until sometime second semester of her senior year. (Which is why she turned down grad school.) She took her MCAT this May–2 years post graduation, after completing her pre-reqs going to school part time while working 2 jobs to support herself.</p>
<p>D2 will take a more traditional route. She’ll take her MCAT at the beginning of her senior year, apply the summer after she graduates then will use her “glide” year and a one year deferral to do 2 years of TFA.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, students are advised to take their MCAT during the spring semester of junior year if they plan to attend medical school immediately after finishing their undergrad. If they take their MCAT in the fall of their senior year, they get their MCAT scores back rather late in the application cycle and it can limit their ability to successfully apply to a variety of appropriate schools. (Many med schools work on a rolling admissions cycle which opens in July.)</p>
<p>The medical school application process takes nearly a full year to complete,</p>
<p>One fact to consider-- the average age for a matriculating US medical student is now around 24-25.</p>
<p>And, no you’re not crazy. There is no such thing as shoo-in for medical school for most people. There are some schools where you stand a better chance than others, but the competition for a seat is fierce.</p>
<p>*As far as D’s relatively low GPA screening her out–she got secondaries (which mean she passed the initial screening) everywhere she applied to so I guess her MCAT compensated for that. *</p>
<p>that makes sense to me! Very good MCAT!</p>
<p>*And there are no points for coming from an IVY vs. a public school–at least in the programs he wrote.
*</p>
<p>I know this seems to upset and confound some people who think they will have an edge coming from an ivy/elite - even if it means having a lower GPA. </p>
<p>Just last week a student was trying to figure out if he’d be better off at Mich St where he could get a better GPA or Vandy where he believed that his GPA would not be as good. </p>
<p>*One fact to consider-- the average age for a matriculating US medical student is now around 24-25.
*</p>
<p>hmmm…my son will be almost 22 when he graduates. He doesn’t want to do a “glide year.” He wants to be a surgeon and I think he doesn’t want to delay what he perceives is going to be a long process anyway. </p>
<p>1) applies widely to a variety of schools (i.e. not just Top 10 ranked schools, but his state med schools and some schools where his numbers are above the mean accepted student)</p>
<p>2) has good ECs (leadership, shadowing, volunteering, etc)</p>
<p>3) has interviewing skills (is capable of holding a intelligent conversation with a stranger and is prepared to answer some tough questions about why he wants to do medicine)</p>
<p>I’d say he has a good to excellent chance of getting accepted somewhere. Note that somewhere may not be his dream school. </p>
<p>Though, that said, every year on SDN you will hear of a 4.0 GPA and 40 MCAT candidate who didn’t get accepted anywhere.</p>
<p>Your percentiles for the MCAT look about right. D1 told me her MCAT put her in the top 4% in the country…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>To refine that a bit, you must have at least a 9 in each section, particularly in the verbal section. Medical schools get unhappy when they see extremely unbalances scores. (i.e. 7-12-12) They will not accept candidates who are not fluent readers of English as indicated by a verbal score of less than 9. (Medical school requires tons of reading and admission committees rightful or wrongfully assume that anyone with a low verbal score is not going to be able to cope with the amounts of reading required.)</p>
<p>Some schools have binding Early Decision (just like undergrad!), those schools notify as early as October. Each school has its own time table for releasing admit decisions, but some schools start releasing some of their admit decision as early as November. However, all decisions (accept/waitlist/reject) must be release by May 1.</p>
<p>Rejections can come at any stage in the process. (D1 got an auto-reject from a school within 4 hours of submitting her secondary. Same for her BF who is 3.9 GPA/40MCAT. No way they actually read her pages of essays, reviewed her LORs and made an informed decision in 4 hours…)</p>
<p>Now here’s a complication–many schools waitlist alot of students. Waitlisting is a very common practice since candidates can hold multiples acceptances until May 15th (when you have to make a final commitment). At some schools, as much as 40-50% of an incoming M1 class may come from the waitlist. There can be alot of movement between May 15th and July 15th (when students start reporting to school).</p>
<p>Back to the question of course selection. If the type of courses/major aren’t important and the “prestige” of the undergrad school isn’t important, either, what’s to stop an applicant from completing his pre-med requirements ( my understanding is that entails 1 year chem, 1 year org. chem, 1 year physics, 1 year bio, 1 year calculus and 1 year English) at a cc, then transfer to a 4 year, pursue an “easy” major, focus on ecs and MCAT prep and be a competitive candidate with an impressive GPA?</p>
<p>Nobody I know is considering pre-med, I am just curious about the process.</p>
<p>When an actual human being sits down to review your application, they do look at your transcript(s). This usually occurs once the primary application has been submitted, but before a secondary application is sent out. Any pre-reqs taken at a CC will get flagged, usually causing your application to be to moved to the auto-reject pile. </p>
<p>It’s also rumored that many schools will also discount/look askance at any pre-reqs taken in summer sessions or at any institution other than the school that issued your diploma. Typically you will be asked for a written explanation of why you did that.</p>
<p>And seriously there are so many applicants for medical school, they don’t really need much of a reason to reject someone. The schools are very aware of how people may try to game the system.</p>
<p>Rejections can come at any stage in the process. (D1 got an auto-reject from a school within 4 hours of submitting her secondary. Same for her BF who is 3.9 GPA/40 MCAT. No way they actually read her pages of essays, reviewed her LORs and made an informed decision in 4 hours…)</p>
<p>Wow…can I ask which school did this? </p>
<p>What do you think may have led to this? Late app? being out of state? What?</p>
lol. It can be even worse than that. I don’t know the particular school being discussed but…</p>
<p>The U of Chicago sent my D a request for secondary (and maybe the rec’s?). IIRC, she paid the not-insignificant fee, sent the secondary (and maybe the rec’s?) , and was rejected all in the same 12 hour period. It wasn’t easy to laugh about it at the time, but it’s kinda funny now. </p>
<p>As to the OP’s question…if it is re-phrased to ask whether you get extra points for taking the hardest curriculum available (like the GC checking that box for UG), then I’d say “NO”. But, if the OP is asking “do they consider the depth and breadth of your course-load after the initial screen?” then my answer would be “most certainly”. </p>
<p>My science nerd D (great depth) had more comments during the interview season about her Religious Studies minor and her “random” course selections on everything from Peruvan authors to African American History (great breadth) than her Bio and Chem focus. </p>
<p>What do you think may have led to this? Late app? being out of state? What?</p>
<p>As to why they requested her $ and secondary only to straight reject her in hours? Well, I don’t really think (or want to think) it was the $100 (or whatever it was) although the timing was really …uhhhh…interesting. But, OTOH, they had her app already. They knew a lot about her including GPA and MCAT and Transcript. There was nothing else statistical to “screen” that they were learning from the requested materials. </p>
<p>My guess as to why she didn’t even make it to the “interview decision delayed” pile ? I think their sophisticated yield-aware admissions program may say “Texas kids have great cheap choices in-state. Our data shows that unless we offer this kid a merit scholarship that makes us about the same cost as Baylor or UTSW, we are just wasting our time. Statistically speaking. And we don’t want her enough to give her a scholarship. She just ain’t that special. Reject.”</p>
<p>Another possibility is that she sent them her “Why the Yale System is perfect for me” essay by mistake. lol.</p>
</p>