IME parental expectations have changed. Back in my own HS days (early '70’s) I knew more parents who expected sons to go to college and daughters - not so much. Not true in my family though, my parents expected all of us( boys, girls) to finish at least a bachelors degree (we all did at least that).
Now I hear a lot of folks making statements about their sons and how they are immature, not ready for school, etc. Note hat I am NOT referring to young men who have learning disabilities or other issues. Simply having lower expectations for sons as compared to daughters. I have several friends who do this.
droppedit, you have a very primitive idea of the college education. In a good classroom, students are thinking in ways that exceed what I assume or know. That is, they bring insights into the material that moves knowledge along. They aren’t necessarily correct, but their hypotheses are worth examination.
I know it is hard for some people to imagine education as exceeding regurgitation. They never have had the experience of really thinking, I guess.
“By comparison with girls, more boys think that they are likely to enter military service or to attend a vocational school. Because the career plans of boys include more predominantly male occupations (craftsmen, protective service and military service occupations, engineers, and architects) that do not require advanced degrees, their lower share of high grades is consistent with a threshold model where students economize effort to reach an educational goal.
In an era where much emphasis for improving students’ achievement is placed on schools and teachers, this paper offers a longer term view that highlights the role of students’ motivation and gender differences therein. Among eighth graders, our second dominant factor accounting for the lower grades of boys is a measure of the frequency of having been sent to the office or to detention over the previous year. This suggests that motivation and misbehavior may go hand-in-hand.”
from the article in post 116
So the primary issue is motivation as FallGirl suspects, though I was surprised to see that the different motivation centered on graduate school. Even so, anecdotally I see boys drop out whose fathers had graduate education and expected it for their children.
^ I see similar, mamalion. The young men I see dropping out are all sons of well educated parents. Their fathers are professionals with degrees/ advanced degrees.
@HarvestMoon1, you raise a good point about commuters. I hadn’t thought much about that, but it is a big piece. I thought the 75% looked a bit discordant, and I haven’t been able to find it online. I did find references to an older study (1980s - still seems new to me) that said 80% of all students in all post secondary institutions are defined as commuters. The only thing more recent I could find was a news article that said 19% of freshmen lived off campus as of 2013. http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/freshman-year/commuting-campus-can-save-money-price-n443561 Since we are talking about people who drop out, I would assume data from people who are early in the college experience is more relevant than an aggregate of adult learners, part timers, grad students, etc. But still, one in five is not insignificant. And again, I abhor all or nothing arguments. I never said the climate on campus was the reason more men are dropping out or not going to college. But I think there is plenty of data from which we can infer it is a factor, and I am not sure that the commuter data moves the needle that much.
@mamalion, I doubt there is any point in engaging with you, but no doubt there is a vast difference in how millenial college age men view the world from previous generations. Women too. I don’t see this as shocking. Society evolves, always. I am also not sure how it supports the point that guys are perfectly fine with some percentage of them being randomly thrown off campus or being hounded for years by a lunatic walking around with a mattress. Since we are exchanging anecdata, I can say absolutely that as far as my son and his friends (both college and high school) are concerned, they are not thrilled with attending diversity seminars or being told to check their privilege constantly. I will state that at least as far as his college frineds go, sexual assault policies are an ever present concern, so much so that they generally have at least one guy who stays completely sober so he can stop friends from going off alone with random girls. Certainly you could say this is a good thing in itself, but it is also a reaction to an enviornment that they recognize can turn predatory very fast.
@MaryGJ, I agree with you absolutely. I would just apply the same standards to women in underrepresented industries. How about you?
@fallgirl, I think you make a great point. Again, nothing is ever all one thing or another, and certainly society in general has shifted over the last several decades as far as our expectations for girls. I am not sure if that means we expect less of our sons, or it just seems that way because of the relative movement.
@Ohiodad51 I think “guys” are fine with certain of them getting thrown off campus for inappropriate/illegal acts. Most people understand or at least accept that, when people do bad things, they need to be punished. Similarly I think it is grand that young men (and women) designate a sober person. It makes sense of for all kinds of emergencies.
Thanks. If I am reading it correctly, they are defining the population of students as those pursuing a degree or certificate at a public post secondary institution, whether full or part time. That’s a pretty broad definition that would none the less exclude both my kids who are (or soon will be) full time resident undergrads at private four year institutions but would include my wife, who takes the occasional class at the local community college to get credits to maintain her teaching certificate. Not sure how accurate of a picture that draws of undergrads, which I think is the salient metric here, since the data which started this digression tracks the rate of change in the percentage of women vis men as undergrads. In fact I would argue that the most important metric on this point would be data for first time enrollees, since most of the studies capturing the gender gap study just that - kids enrolling in college immediately after high school.
Of course. People of both sexes (unless you happen to be a current student at Evergreen State) seem fine with enforcing the law. The trouble obviously is with the verdict first, trial later aspect of college tribunals.
@Ohiodad51 - Here’s another synopsis of a survey done by Sallie Mae:
While the percentages may vary depending on the year and methods of the surveys it’s clear to me that the vast majority of college students are not doing a 4 year residential experience. I do think that substantially reduces the effects of certain issues on male matriculation and drop out rates.
Men’s interpretation of their campus climates may not be a large factor in the phenomenon of them not attending college. But I do think it’s interesting in the sense that it reflects similar sentiments I’ve heard from many White people, men, etc. about how society at large views and treats them. Or, at least, those were sentiments I heard from them before the election.
@mamalion I agree with you that all friend groups should be encouraged to have a sober friend. But some people don’t like the idea of college-aged girls being scared that because the justice system or their school won’t take measures to protect them, they need to police their own behavior to avoid becoming a victim of sexual assault. Similarly, some people don’t like the idea of college-aged guys being scared that because the justice system or their school won’t take measures to protect them, they need to police their own behavior to avoid all the consequences of being falsely accused of sexual assault.
@MaryGJ What you wrote is also what I hear from people who don’t agree with the premises of “micro-aggressions,” cultural appropriation, the patriarchy, etc. No one’s saying that we must all be sympathetic to men who feel slighted by what they hear about them in the media, on campus, etc. But if women don’t need to be sympathetic to men, then men shouldn’t need to be sympathetic to women who complain about the same things.
First off, as a Tradesman, I would say that it’s not the worst thing in the world getting an electrician’s( or Plumber’s or Cabinetmaker’s, or …)ticket. Pay is good, and can end up being really good if you open up your own company. There is usually far less annoying political crap than what you get at large corporate jobs.
Secondly, if the young men find the atmosphere too tough at a LAC, then God help them when they go as an apprentice on a job site. It’s tough…really tough. No place for thinskin.
Thirdly, My wife and I do worry about the anti- male sentiment we see in education system, where most of the teachers are female. I don’t need my 12 yo boy coming home telling me about " Mansplaining" and how his teacher favors kids( almost exclusively female ) who are in a Feminist( Young Feminists) club she helped set up at school. If our boys learn to associate education as being hostile to men in general, is it really any wonder that they choose not to go to higher education, though I sort of hate that term as, IMO, learning a good trade IS a form of higher education.
Agree on the German/ UK trained tradesman. Their training is superb. They don’t work any harder than ours, but they work smarter.
I can say, that as a mother of a son, I’ve always bemoaned the lack of men in elementary education. I agree that boys need male role models as part of their schooling – and they’re not getting them.
Why don’t more men go into teaching? Could it be that’s because of our very attitude toward teaching (“women’s work”) ? What does it say about our society in which men are not interested in shaping the new generation?
The only college-age men I’ve ever heard complaining about women being hostile are men who treated women like crap in the past. Makes me take them a bit less seriously. Hell, the other day one of my friends texted me asking if we could grab a drink because “these b*****s are ruthless, you’re so lucky you have a girlfriend”. LOL, as if I got a girlfriend just by being lucky, vs treating her with the respect she deserves and not calling her sexist names behind her back.
Also, in response to the original post. As Louis CK succinctly put it, the biggest threat on earth to women is men.
Right… so the men leave the classroom. Again, I think that’s a problem. They remove themselves from the day-to-day work of educating the next generation. They go into “policy” – which certainly hasn’t addressed the issue of the lack of men in elementary education, and how it impacts boys.
Of course there are innate differences between men and women making it more likely for women to really want to be a kindergarten teacher, and men more likely to want to set off explosives in a mine.
So maybe that’s why men are saying “no thanks” to college? Because from a very young age they’ve been shown that real men don’t sit in the classroom, but rather aim to set off explosions in a mine ;)) ?
You can be sarcastic all you want, but my point is the differences are not “shown from an early age”, they are biological. It is crazy to pretend that men and women, overall, should have the same range of capabilities and interests in every field.
Maybe the great majority of men prefer work other than elementary classroom education? Maybe more women prefer that type of work to pounding nails? Maybe more women prefer jobs where their schedule closely matches that of their younger children? Maybe more men prefer jobs which revolve around tangible tasks, or have clear results? Why is everyone’s motivation and priorities assumed to be be exactly the same? Doesn’t your own life experience tell you that you think differently than your husband/wife/father/mother?
And while I know this will be completely ignored, I can’t stop myself from pointing out that once again, it is passing strange that female dominated employment (primary education) means men are voluntarily absenting themselves, but male dominated employment (engineering) means women are being excluded.