<p>i am considering taking the MENU sequence (290). does anybody have experience in these courses? how difficult are they? i am good at math but didnt take ap calc during high school. rather, i took up to calc II at a local community college. i am just nervous that taking an honors sequence will be too tough for me. is anybody going to take this sequence? again, thanks for all the help.</p>
<p>I know students who took it as freshmen and struggled a lot with it. I can't vouch personally for its difficulty but from what I've heard it's definitely a challenge.</p>
<p>hehehe</p>
<p>Well, I was in the engineering honors calculus, and I think the kids are similar in caliber and let me tell you, THAT one is a beast. Everyone in your class will be smart. And when I say smart, I mean really really really smart. I think it'll be safe to say that every single person has 800 Math SAT 1 and SAT 2 IIC, 5 on AP Calc BC, AMC/AIME/Maybe even USAMO. Yeah, it's not a joke, there are some really talented people out there. But it's a lot of fun - it's very rewarding if you ENJOY math, and you'll definitely have bragging rights. I found my professor to be excellent too, and I was challenged in math for the first time in my life. So yeah, try it out! </p>
<p>Oh and btw, my problem sets for quarters 1 and 2 took anywhere from 6 hours to 15 hours at the max, averaging around 8 or 9. That's usually 9 PM to about 7 AM of straight working (Yeah, I guess I could have started earlier in the week). It's really fun though, especially because you usually develop work groups and you have 3-4 of the top tier math kids at NU doing math with you bouncing ideas and solutions off of each other. I would do it again, if given the choice.</p>
<p>wow (10 chars)</p>
<p>crap...what kind of classes are they for freshman year? i looked over it and it seems like linear algebra and multivariable calc?</p>
<p>For Menu, yes (not for all freshmen). It definitely goes through linear algebra and multivariable (that's all of multivariable, through vector calculus (which is NOT calculus with vectors lol, but like, vector fields and stuff, stokes theorem, divergence theorem and the like)). There may be diffeqs as well, but I'm not sure. I know there is diffeqs for honors engineering students. If you do MMSS theres some other stuff that looked pretty intimidating to me.</p>
<p>i contacted one of the MENU administrators a month or so ago and told him of my current extent of math knowledge (up to calc II at CC). i am currently taking the aforementioned calc II class so most of the concepts will be pretty fresh in my head. i am doing fine in the class. im not doing the best b/c i am juggling two jobs and working out but I feel the material isnt too difficult. throughout hs, i got a's in every math class i took (i took the highest honors track available). i was on track to take Calc BC senior year but decided to take other, more appealing classes. to make up for it i took the Calc classes at CC. the administrator told me i was heading in the right direction by taking calc II but told me i wouldnt be as prepard. i dont really understand that comment now that I think about it. why would a Calc BC class in high school prepare me better than Calc II at CC? they cover roughly the same material. in your opinion, RisingSun, should I take meNU? you have pretty much intimidated me to the nth degree with your earlier post so any help would be much appreciated. how the drop system work too? i know its pessimistic but i need to know if I am in over my head.</p>
<p>Hahahahahahhaha</p>
<p>Okokok, here's how it is for honors calc for engineers. I really don't know if it's the same for MENU - I think MENU's a little less intense, but I'm not sure. In my honors engineering calculus class, we started with about ... 40 people. By the beginning of the second quarter, there were 14. Literally. The entrance test is pretty easy, and like I said, many people who made Northwestern had perfect AP Calc BC and Math SATs, and most likely, the people who took these classes didn't study for either test at all (I know that was my case). </p>
<p>Whether or not you do MENU is really not about what classes you have taken at community college or in high school. It's about how you approach math. I know that MENU is more abstract than what you might be used to, especially with the linear algebra. If you ever had to study for math in high school, I wouldn't recommend the class. If anyone was to ask you "Did you get 800 on SAT math" and your answer is anything but "Obviously...", the class may not be for you. Unless you want a challenge of course.</p>
<p>The reason I make these statements is because the SAT, in my opinion, is very good at testing reasoning ability. You can be very good at math and get 750 to 780, but those problems that you missed are those problems that really strike home with your intuition and the like. I also make the studying math statement because if you study math, you're probably not approaching it in a manner that stems from understanding and appreciation, but instead, probably from a "plug-and-chug" point of view (more rote). If you really love math and appreciate it for its elegance and simplicity, you should do it. </p>
<p>When you enter the class, you will be entering at different levels with people in your class. For example, my calculus preparation was not as strong or as thorough as other people's in my class. I started off slower and I had to work a little harder. However, once we began learning new things, I found that I could keep up, and that I could even do better than most of the other kids. Taking Honors Math really depends on your capability and capacity to do math - it has very little to do with how much math you may already know. </p>
<p>So, all that being said, should you try it? It's really up to you. Ask yourself how you approach math, and if you're doing math because you enjoy it or because you are good at it, so far. Because once you get into Honors Engineering Calc or MENU, everyone's good at it, some very good. And even then, everyone struggles. But if you enjoy it, you'll stay, and if you don't, you'll drop. Good luck on your decision.</p>
<p>Is the 290 sequence less intense than the other one offered? These posts are really intimidating me...but I am very interested in MENU.</p>
<p>Do you think taking Organic Chem and MENU freshman year is suicide RisingSun? how many hours a week did you spend on your honors calc course for engineers?</p>
<p>i took calc ab and i plan on taking menu. if with my ap score they say i'm ready then i believe them. dont be afriad because of these posts.</p>
<p>I think it's important to remember that no matter how hard whatever you're attempting to do is, there are people who have done it before, and have done very well. I have a good friend who pulled a 4.0 this quarter with Orgo and Honors Calc for engineers. I also have a friend who was taking MENU and Accelerated Orgo (212) at the same time! Except she was pretty stressed out. LIke Andrew says, NU thinks you have what it takes, you should always give it a shot. But just because it becomes challenging, don't give up. Rise up and face it, push yourself, and overcome that challenge. </p>
<p>Another thing though, really think about how you approach math, if you're not doing it ... intuitively enough, you may be in trouble. Or at least you will be investing a lot more time into it than you probably should be.</p>
<p>BIG POST!</p>
<p>These are the CTECs that people fill out for NU classes, that is, what students who have taken the class have to say about it. I'll post on here 290, 291, and Honors 252 for Engineers. Don't take my word anymore, take theirs:</p>
<p>Math 290
Instruction, 4.1/6
Course Overall Rating, 4.0/6
Amount Learned in Course 4.6/6
Level of Intellectual Challenge 5.0/6
Interest Stimulated in Course 3.7/6</p>
<p>Wilkinson is among the most passionate and intelligent teachers I've ever had. She really seeks to help you learn the topic, tries to learn all names and nicknames, and is just a pleasure to be around. A true gift to the math program here at NU./ This course was tough, but in the end worked out okay. There isn't too much homeowrk. The book isn't that helpful, though./ Professor Wilkinson was hard to follow at times because she goes from one idea to the next very quickly. You can tell she is excited to teach, but I mostly learned from reading the book and doing the homework problems myself than from the actual class itself./ This course is hard at first, but you can easily get a B as long as you study. The tests are pretty difficult./ MENU is very challenging, especially the first few weeks. Being sociable with the other people in class is a must so that you can have people to study with and bounce the ideas around with so you can better learn it all. Reading the textbook is really important as well, as the book gives both the formal language of the math as well as the pragmatic "rules" of the math that I know I was accustomed to from high school math and AP Calc AB. Two midterms and a final, homework due every week and a quiz in the TA section every week on the previous week's material./ Professor Wilkinson loves math and hopes that all of her students will learn to love math too. She's very enthusiastic during class and tends to go off on tangents because she wants you to understand everything. She really understands what she's teaching and teaches the concepts, not just the definitions. There's a lot of homework and there are confusing proofs, and sometimes the class is difficult to understand, but you understand it later before the tests. Take it only if you have a major that requires you to take it or you like math. Easier than 291 but harder than the equivalent 230 something, more work./ If you're not really into math this class is not right for you./ I loved this class!!! Take this class!!! I started out not sure if I even wanted to do MENU, but I want to major in math now. Professor Wilkinson is very enthusiastic and great at explaining why things work, not just how to do them./ Good class if you like theoretical mathematics. Wilkinson is a very enthusiatic teacher, but she goes really fast. Be prepared to study./ Material covered was taught efficiently, and the book was a good supplemental learning source. Professor Wilkinson was very enthusiastic in teaching the material and very able to answer questions that her students had. After taking the course, I realized that linear algebra was a lot more complex than I originally though. / I like to challenge myself with math, often doubling difficult classes in high school. MENU with Wilkinson, the director of the program, was a waste of my time. I have misgivings about continuing the program. Wilkinson is hyperactive, and while her jumping around out of breath is mildly amusing the first few classes, the act gets old very quickly. Her material is not cohesive, organized, nor presented well. She is one of the worst math teachers I have ever had, and completely turned me off of the MENU program. The material itself isn't hard, and if you read the book, you can understand whatever you need to understand. She also makes you memorize word for word definitions and theorems, which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard for a math class. I've had very rigorous math classes before (including diff eq and MVC), and I'm not complaining about "oh there's no math involved," etc. or the difficulty level of the class, just her instruction./ This course was really hard in general. The practice problems were the best help--don't just do the assigned problems./ Good math class. A decent workload but nothing too demanding./ This was not the most interesting math class I have ever taken and although Professor Wilkinson was knowledgeable about the subject, the most effective learning occured during the discussion/quiz section with our TA./ The course is challenging and interesting. I would not recommend taking it unless it coincides with a major or minor./ The professor is very enthusiastic and interested in what she does, but she makes things really complicated when she explains things....the TA cleared things up usually./ I'm usually interested in math, but for the first time in my life, a math class was my least favorite out of all the classes that I was taking. I felt like I didnt really understand the ideas the teacher were trying to explain, mostly because I was distracted by her caffeinated nature./ This course is a good accelerated math course if you do it. Unfortunately, after doing well for awhile, I slacked off and ended up way behind. Don't do that. But if you stay with it, you should do well and learn everything you need to and wanted to./ This course was a lot of work. The instruction was confusing even though the professor was very enthusiastic. We went off on too many tangents and did too many proofs. Take this class only if you really really enjoy math./ This class was challenging and thought provoking, but I usually found it uninteresting./ The class was interesting. It wasn't too difficult if you read the book. Lectures were often boring, and Prof. Wilkinson was always hyper. Going to the discussion section was a lot more helpful./ This is a good course to take with Wilkinson. She is extremely enthusiastic while teaching, as in running around from one side of the chalk board to the other. At the end of the year, you will walk away feeling prepared for the next course in the sequence. Although the exams are quite hard, they are fair. There is a quiz each week during discussion, but they are not hard as long as you do the homework. This is a rewarding course to take whether you're a math major or not./ Lectures were interesting but not very related to what was on the exams or quizzes. don't panic if you don' understand what's going on in the lecture because most of the material tested on is straight from the textbook./ The course was awesome. And if interested in math, Menu is a great program to check out./ MENU was very effective in helping gain a deeper understanding about mathematics. I learned a ton of material, and really had to work hard to get a good grasp of the subject. The prof was so enthusiastic, and the TA was always willing to help. 290 is a very conceptual course, definitely not just "applied" math; there were a ton of True/False questions in hmwrk and on tests./ the book was more clear than wilkinson who was confusing and long-winded at times and always out of breath, the weekly quizzes help you stay on top of things/ The class isnt very interesting and its pretty difficult.</p>
<p>Math 291
Instruction, 5.7/6
Course Overall Rating, 5.2/6
Amount Learned in Course 5.4/6
Level of Intellectual Challenge 5.7/6
Interest Stimulated in Course 5.3/6</p>
<p>By the way, those are the highest numbers I've ever seen on a CTEC</p>
<p>Kushnirsky is a really knowledgeable great professor. the course is very difficult and abstract and fast paced. expect to be challenged. its all difficult proofs. kushnirsky is hilarious and engaging./ Professor Kushnirsky has more sense of humor than I thought possible in a math professor. His knowledge of the subject shows in his lectures, during which he never relies on notes. The TA, Chris, was pretty helpful but didn't seem as interested in the topics as Professor Kushnirsky. The class is challenging, but you will learn a lot./ It is challanging and difficult. If you enjoy this type of theoretical math take it, if not, avoid it./ Eugene Kushnirsky is awesome. This class is extremely hard, but he si able to make some of the most complex math I have ever done seem very clear and logical. The tests are brutal and the quizzes not much better, but if you study and do the homework it will be possible, and going to office hours is a good idea. Overall Eugene's best attribute is his humor. The jokes really make the class enjoyable and made me want to go. Take 291 with him./ Kushnirsky is the best math prof ever. He teaches from memory without ever looking at a book, and yet he never makes any mistakes on the board. Everything he says is perfectly clear, and even though it requires a little more thinking than 290, in the end it's not too hard and is actually really interesting. He also makes funny little side comments in class that only about half the class picks up, so some people will laugh and the others will kind of look around and wonder what's going on, which makes them even funnier. Wasn't the biggest fan of math before this, but this class definitely made the subject interesting./ Professor Kushnirsky is a really good professor--he explains everything very clearly, answers all questions, and I am never bored during class. He makes good jokes sometimes, but always stays focused on math. I recommend this class, even though the math itself is pretty difficult--homework and weekly quizzes can be frustrating, and you have to get used to getting lots of Cs./ The course is very challenging, but Professor Kushnirsky is an amazing lecturer and makes everything very clear. I learned a lot in this class!/ This was a very good course with an excellent instructor. He presented the material clearly and made sure that the concepts were grasped. Though the material was a bit challenging at first (especially with those who have little or no experience with proofs), it was not overly difficult to learn./ I loved it, even if it wasn't new. It's an interesting subject, and Kushnirsky is great. / For me, this class was really challenging. Prof. Kushnirsky was an awesome math teacher and I always felt like I was learning a lot, but the quizes and midterms were always pretty difficult - lots of theory and proofs. Even though the class was hard for me, I definitely thought it was worth it because the teacher is great./ It's a pretty hard subject but I think Kushnirsky did an awesome job teaching it./ This class is awesome. Eugene is an amazing teacher: he knows the material so well he doesn't ever have to use notes and can answer any question clearly, and makes lots of random jokes. He does a great job of presenting difficult material; I never really felt like anything was that hard, because he made it seem so easy. Linear algebra is weird, and there ARE tons of proofs, but Eugene makes it fun and does a great job teaching it./ Great class. Great new material. If you have engineering friends, they may be asking you for help all of the time with their EA homework. And you should be able to explain everything to them./ This class covers and proves a wide range of very abstract ideas, and the classwork and tests can often be quite difficult; this class is not for the faint of heart, and certainly not recommended if looking for an easy A./ this is a great class. i would recommend it to anyone who meets the requirements for entering MENU. this was the first math class i've taken that really forced me to understand the material in depth rather than just memorize formulas... you'll have to think really hard at times, but in the end you'll reach a state of mathematical enlightenment./ I had a lot of trouble grasping the material in this class but, luckily, there were a lot of resources that helped me pass. Learning the material, even though I never performed well on exams, was very rewarding./ A challenging course unlike any other math I've taken. This course isn't really that dependent on strong recollection of calculus, but it helps. Very proof oriented, which requires some getting used to. Professor Kushnirsky is excellent and brings some humor to the class sometimes. The book is pretty good, too, although it sometimes lacks examples directly relating to class material. Overall, a good class for those who like math.</p>
<p>ES_APPM Honors Calc for Engineers 252-1
Instruction, 4.1/6
Course Overall Rating, 4.0/6
Amount Learned in Course 4.4/6
Level of Intellectual Challenge 5.4/6
Interest Stimulated in Course 3.9/6</p>
<p>I'd like to point out that these were with the original ~40 people who took the class, the next quarter, after most people dropped out, here were the scores:</p>
<p>Instruction, 5.2/6
Course Overall Rating, 5.3/6
Amount Learned in Course 5.4/6
Level of Intellectual Challenge 5.8/6
Interest Stimulated in Course 5.2/6</p>
<p>252-1
Good course. Tough, but good. Youll learn a lot if you put in the homework time. Make sure you like math though before taking it though. If so, then youll enjoy the enthusiastic teacher and youll learn a lot./ Great prof but don't take this class if you want an easy quarter of calc, make sure to read the book & use it./ silber is a great mathematician but not necessarily the best teacher. almost all the lectures had nothing to do with the homework and most of the class period was devoted to deriving things which was interesting but had no correlation to the class. Very little multivariable calc was actually covered and a lot of time was spent reviewing unnecessary material. don't take this class, there is no purpose in taking honors level classes./ Don't take this class unless you are very very good at math b/c there's no point of taking honors class if you struggle. / This course was extremely challenging. I strongly recommend that students take this course only if they have a very strong interest in applied math or if they do not have a heavy workload. The weekly homework assignments take up a lot of time and the tests are very difficult, especially since class averages are unusually high. Many people in the class have already taken Multivariable Calc, so be prepared to put in more effort than you ever have in math. This course was definitely my hardest class this quarter (yes, even harder than Organic Chem which is a feat in itself)./ Okay. Here it is. If, in the first two weeks you find yourself doubting whether or not you can keep up, DROP THE CLASS AS FAST AS YOU CAN. There will be those that can, and those that can't, and trust me, it doesn't get any better as the course goes on./ This course was a lot of unnecessary headaches and worries/ Not a bad course. Course material isn't too hard, and Silber understands it very well./ The class was really fast paced and covered a lot of material. Silber is a good teacher, but there really is no benefit to the honors class. It's just more work, harder tests and an extra day of class a week in order to cover the same material as 230 in a more complicated way./ Good course. I found it to be more challenging than expected but also quite fun./ Take it if you like math--be prepared to work hard and be challenged. Def worth it./ Good course for engineering majors. Lectures can be a bit dry and hard to sit through, mostly because the material isn't always the most captivating stuff. The professor and teaching assistants are helpful. A very managable course./ The homework was good because rather than a lot of boring problems, had a few challenging ones. However, lecture focused way too much on proofs, I had to learn a lot from the book./ The teacher develops concepts thoroughly through helpful proofs but can sometimes take too much time to convey the point using those proofs. The course is not much different from math 230 regarding concepts; it is just probably slightly more difficult./ A very interesting course with rather difficult material./ The course was very interesting, and at the end, I felt like I learned a lot, although what was a little shocking was the caliber of my peers. I was always #1 in math at my school, but here I fall around average. I'm pretty sure everyone in the class was 800 SAT Math, Math 2C, and 5 AP Calc BC. Applying math on real world things can be really cool. Also, the homework could be extremely long, but pretty rewarding./ The class itself is ok but the competition is insane./ Silber is a confusing professor. Her lectures have good information, but the flow is very interrupted, so it's hard to pull alot from her lectures. The homework is very difficult, so be prepared to spend alot of time on it. Don't assume anything in your homework either, you will get points off./ Before the course, I was eager to continue Calculus, however, I am no longer as interested in multivariable calculus, it was more challenging, and not as fun./ The aspects of this course that are most important to me are: 1) the ability of the teacher to contribute her knowledge, in the form of lectures, to a class of insightful students and 2) how well the professor can adapt her teaching styles in order to meet the fundamental needs of the students. Given the extremities in the caliber of students in our class, I would say that the course was more difficult than I expected it to be. Even though the professor taught the concepts well, the class averages have always exceeded her expectations and that only hurts the students who are getting high scores on exams that are still below average. Its a difficult situation; the solution is make the practice examination very difficult to weed out the most capable students./ Do not take this class if you can help it! Honors classes do not matter in college. This class will just add to your stress./ This course helped me learn math, and develop my love for math. For that I definitely am willing to sacrifice an A or a high B in another course, in favor of learning more and getting a high C or low B./ The course was very difficult and some people had a background in MV before starting off Fall Quarter. The class is really hard and the teacher is somewhat difficult to learn from. The book is really helpful if you hope to understand the material, and you will need to seek it out because class is not enough. The class also moves quickly so you might find yourself struggling. If you're looking for a challenge, go for it, but you may find yourself regretting it. Just know, the math placement in no way represents this class. / Learned Derivation of multivariable which was cool/ Way too tough. The professor was too tough in trying to make the class average lower and lower by making harder exam questions, which was unfair to those who are no way up there in the class. I should never had taken honors. I'm not the only one with this view since most people are dropping the course and taking math 234 next quarter. </p>
<p>252-2
The homework problem sets are extremely long and difficult every week. However, you learn a lot. You cannot miss a lecture. Despite the level of difficulty, it was worth it. I learned so much and got such a sense of accomplishment from each problem set and test./ I didn't like this class. The required homework and single midterm aren't that great. I've stayed up til 7am doing homework for this class. Math234 sounds a lot easier. But if you enjoy weird proofs and mathematics in general, this is probably more likely to suit you than the regular calc class./ A good course if you have to take it, homework was very long and tedious at times, class was a challenge/ If you survived first quarter and still feel good about this class, then stay the course. Keep in mind, everyone in it is really smart, so don't expect a curve. / I enjoyed this course, it was challenging, I learned new material, and the instruction was good./ the application-based focus provokes you to apply the knowledge you learn in classroom to the outside world./ I feel this class taught me everything it was supposed to, and more. It pushed me to my limits with math, and showed me what I could do if I really put my mind to it. I'd recommend it to anyone. Professor Silber is one of the best math teachers I've ever had./ Great, interesting, but by no means easy, course. A lot of fun if you are truly interested in learning mathematics./ Challenging course,but prof and the TA were great. Learned some crazy stuff./ Take this if you want a great teacher but don't mind large problem sets that challenge you intellectually/ This course is definitely a good course if you really like calculus. If you don't, nothing is lost by taking the 234 section. In fact, the combination of so many aspects in one problem can be confusing if you don't have time to spend deciphering it./ Professor Silber is nice and she taught well. But there's one thing I'd like to tell. The average is very high -- always higher than 80. If you think you're not competitive enough I'd not recommend to take it. Math 234 is enough if you don't want to see this intense competition./ Second quarter was definitely easier than first quarter, not necessarily from the material as much as just knowing what to do the second time around. The class is smaller, the environment is more personal, and the new TA (David Hansen) was great. Silber's a great teacher, there's a lot to learn, and even though the homework can be a bit ridiculous at times, it's great to know you can do it, and that you are just that much more prepared for the next several years to come.</p>
<p>Thanks for those posts! Seems like a tough but promising course..</p>
<p>From the comments in 291-2:</p>
<p>"Eugene is an original gangster"</p>
<p>hahaha</p>
<p>So how big is the difference between the 290 and 291 sequence? I know 291 is more on theory, but how about the rigor? And the professors that teach both? Supposedly one of the 290 teachers is going to Columbia next year?</p>
<p>Bump. I'd like to hear about the difference in difficulty between 290 and 291 as well.</p>
<p>Is it possible to drop out of MENU if you realize it’s not for you?</p>