merit scholarship at UNC Chapel Hill v. Yale

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill
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<p>Hello all,</p>

<p>I'm trying to decide between Yale and a full merit scholarship at the UNC at Chapel Hill. I received the Carolina Scholarship at UNC (UNC</a> Scholars Program Carolina Scholars), which would cover tuition, room and board, and a living stipend for all four years. While I'm ecstatic to have this dilemma, deciding has been tough. I'm worried that at Yale academics will be overly intense and the atmosphere too cutthroat. Additionally, I'm contemplating either law school or a PhD program at another top university for after my undergrad, which would require a high GPA. But at UNC, I'm worried that there won't be as many post-graduation opportunities that Yale would offer. Does anybody have any experience/insight/opinion surrounding this sort of situation? (By the way, I lean toward the humanities and social sciences: international relations, economics, English).</p>

<p>One last thing: while, of course, there is a large monetary difference between the two choices, money is not a critical factor.</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>If she doesn’t see this post, I would recommend pming cloying. She was also a Carolina Scholar (pretty sure) and is taking a gap year after deferring her acceptance to law school. I believe that she would have a lot of help for you in this situation.</p>

<p>While Yale obviously has a better name, UNC offers a ton of opportunities. They are more for you to make for yourself rather than handed to you by the Yale name, but there are a lot. UNC has a ton of alumni all over the world who are willing to help out fellow Tarheels. And if you have a high GPA and have gotten useful experience, a UNC degree is certainly not going to hurt you.</p>

<p>I’m assuming you were invited to the honors program as well, and I would highly recommend that you take a class with Larry Goldberg. One of my friends (turned down Princeton for the Morehead) has similar interests and RAVES about his classes all the time. </p>

<p>I can’t say anything about the Yale environment, but UNC students are not competitive at all. Everybody, professors and students alike, are very willing to help and want you to succeed.</p>

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<p>If you can afford it, go to Yale. It’s one of the world’s very best universities. UNC may be good, but it just can’t compare.</p>

<p>It’s true that a lot of people go to top grad schools etc from UNC, but far more do from Yale. The Yale name will open doors for you almost anywhere in the world.</p>

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<p>If money’s not a huge factor, Yale.</p>

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<p>Thank you to those who responded!</p>

<p>@ jessimo093: Thank you for the information. It’s great to hear that there’s somebody formerly in my shoes that I may talk to–if you don’t mind me asking, which law school will cloying be attending?</p>

<p>@ keepittoyourself and modelgeek282: I suppose that the main issue is expense. My background is middle class, so though I wouldn’t qualify for financial aid, the expense of attending Yale as an undergrad and then another top tier graduate school (for law school, an MBA or Phd) is daunting. </p>

<p>Does anybody know the expense that can be associated with an MBA or Phd program? Are fellowships/scholarships difficult to find? My understanding is that Phd students don’t pay tuition but work intensively for a professor; but then again, I just figured out this undergraduate ordeal, so I don’t know much.</p>

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<p>Depending on where you work after undergraduate, many companies will pay/help pay for your MBA.</p>

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<p>Would you be paying for yale yourself (or your family), or would you have to take out loans? If a lot of loans, then go to UNC.</p>

<p>If you’re paying for yourself, then it’s more complicated. If you go to yale, it’s more likely that you’ll get into the very top programs for grad school that will pay for you. And loans from a top law school are usually a good deal anyway.</p>

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<p>I am glad that I was lurking today! Congratulations on your Carolina Scholars award!!!</p>

<p>OP - I understand how crazy a dilemma that must be. It’s Yale! My granddad played football there and my house growing up was filled with bulldogs and old pictures of his time there. Give yourself a gigantic pat on the back. Holy crap! You got into Yale! Also, one of my brothers went to Dartmouth and I was able to see how his experience at an Ivy compared to mine at Blue Heaven. So I totally, completely understand how tempting that must be.</p>

<p>With that said, with what I know now, I find it to be a no brainer to go to Carolina (full ride) over Yale. I’ll try and fail to make my reasoning concise. But first, a concession:</p>

<p>You absolutely will not have the same experience at Carolina intellectually that you would at Yale. No, by all means, Carolina students are not stupid and are very active. But I have a feeling that the majority of students at Yale would have more diverse backgrounds. I always joke that you don’t get into Harvard/Yale without having three languages spoken in your household. That’s a really neat thing going for Yale.</p>

<p>Anyway, here’s my argument tailored to you.</p>

<ol>
<li>If you’re interested in med or law school, Yale will not open any doors for you that Carolina could not. For PhD programs, the most important factors are 1. your GED 2. your GPA and 3. your publications/research experience in your field of interest with a loose 4. personal connections. I’m sure Yale is looking upon favorably for grad school, but none of my friends coming from Carolina have had any trouble getting into their top choice for grad programs, so long as their numbers are as they should be. Of the Carolina Scholars in my class, I know one who’s in Divinity School at Yale right now, two at Carolina Med, one with a full ride to her home state’s law school and who is about to do an awesome judicial externship this summer… Carolina will not limit you. Outside of the Scholars program, I have several friends pursuing PhDs at Michigan straight out of school (B school, physics, Native American studies).</li>
</ol>

<p>I’m sure people at Yale do great things. It’s Yale, duh. But, Carolina is outstanding because of its opportunities for undergraduate research. When I interviewed for a full ride at Carolina law, they were VERY interested in the research I had done (as well as my random violin playing in a local Cuban music group). Another notable point about Carolina is its focus on entrepreneurship. This wasn’t on my radar when I got there, but it’s worth noting. Shameless promotion for Devil Down Records goes here…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Cost. When I was in your shoes, cost really wasn’t a priority to me. I’m glad that I chose Carolina for reasons other than that, because, with this economy, cost became a concern. I am jealous that you get a stipend as a Carolina Scholar - I didn’t! I just got full tuition. (OOSers at that time got a full ride, but no stipend). Anyway, not having to have a job during school was, frankly, awesome. During my junior year when I was trying to kill myself by overloading two semesters and being involved in four different clubs + research, having a job was nowhere near possible. But my junior year at Carolina was when I was able to shine in my law school apps.</p></li>
<li><p>Whoops, just noticed that you said you WERE interested in law school. Ok, here’s what I did not know when I was your age (and no one your age does know this), but for law school admissions, UNDERGRADUATE MEANS NOTHING. You could start out at a community college and then transfer to your state’s lowest ranked state school. It doesn’t matter where you’re applying!! Stanford? Harvard? Florida? It is all about the LSAT and your GPA. You might get the tiniest bump by going to Yale… but not really. The reason for this is that law schools have to report their median LSAT and GPA scores for admitted students, which makes up a large part of their ranking (which in turn is a money maker). Where those students come from is not a part of the ranking. In a way, it’s kind of nice that law school is so formulaic. I knew exactly where I was going to get in before I applied, I really only had one surprise. Wash U decided that they were going to move their LSAT median up a point, and so accepted every single applicant 169 or higher regardless of GPA, and waitlisted many applicants under that mark. A really weird move. Some schools do have “soft floors” for GPAs, where, it doesn’t matter if you’re in the (literally) 99.6 percentile for your LSAT, if your GPA is below a 3.5, you’re not getting in. Those schools seem to be UT Austin, Emory, Berkeley, and USC. Data is easily viewed at lawschoolnumbers.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Some people acknowledge this, but still say, “Hey, I don’t want my brain to die while I’m making my 4.0 at Super Tech University.” A valid point, and for that reason, I wouldn’t encourage my children to go somewhere where they’ll be a big fish in a small pond. Luckily, Carolina is too big of a pond for you to ever feel that big. My experience at Carolina was wonderful and I was able to participate in a lot of challenging work, but I was by no means a super star or leader in anything I did.</p>

<ol>
<li>Ivy networking vs. being a Tar Heel. It’s impossible for me to say what it’s really like to be a Yalie, but I know that when people find out I’m a Tar Heel and they went to Carolina, they want to help me…especially as you get farther away from NC. I tap into the alumni network/Carolina Club all the time for various things, like when I’m visiting areas or looking at housing. I didn’t try to go into finance or consulting (though, hah, ended up starting an academic consulting company a few months after graduating) and so I really just don’t know enough about that to be able to say one way or another.</li>
</ol>

<p>2+3. If you’re interested in law school, then trust me, cost is a factor. I have no idea how much a Yale education costs anymore… way too much considering what your earning potential would be with a social sciences degree from any undergraduate. Anyway, law school is insanely expensive. Law schools are used to subsidize the rest of the university. Berkeley (at least last year) had the highest tuition, with a rate of $70,000 a year. That’s not including cost of living there. Cost is not directly related to prestige for law schools, but by the time you apply, tuition will probably be at least $50,000 for your standard private school (or OOS public). Add in cost of living, and you’ll be going into about $180k of debt if you go to a law school at its sticker price. Granted, it is stupid to go to law school without a scholarship, unless someone’s helping you pay.</p>

<p>You have to be pretty loaded for the cost of Yale undergrad + a prestigious law school even with fairly generous scholarship to not make a dent.</p>

<p>This went far too long, so I apologize for that. But I tried to make an argument without even factoring in warm fuzzies, of which Carolina has many for me. Feel free to PM me with more questions, or I will check back on this thread.</p>

<p>keepittoyourself - loans for law school are not really a great deal. The interest rates are horrible and they’re no longer subsidized, meaning that interest accrues during school where you are legally not allowed to work. The only “good deal” is if you go into public interest, but even then, it’s not great. The only nice thing is that they’re forgiven after ten years. Still, law school isn’t a party, and neither is firm work.</p>

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<p>cloying, I think we mostly agree. Yale will be better, with smarter students and a better network, but it will cost a lot. What we disagree about is how much better. I think it’s so much better that she should go to Yale if she can afford it, but not if she has to take loans.</p>

<p>It’s true that law and med school don’t really matter where you go, if you get the numbers. But if you want to get an MBA, and go into banking/finance/top industry, then for many top jobs there are only three universities to go to. You can guess what three. If you’re certain that you want to go law, then maybe go UNC. But Yale will let you keep your options open a lot more.</p>

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<p>What I was thinking of is that if you go into public service, you’ll get help with your loans. If you do something really high-paying, you’ll easily get enough money to pay for those loans. Of course this only applies if you go to a top law school. What you don’t want is to go to a top law school and take loans but not get a great job.</p>

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<p>newengland321, </p>

<p>Congratulations on your admissions successes! </p>

<p>I was in much the same position you are this time last year, choosing between the Carolina Scholarship and my first choice Ivy (Dartmouth). Ultimately, coming from a middle class family, my decision came down to money. Awarded the opportunity to receive a virtually free, high quality education, I could not justify spending a massive amount of money to go to one of my dream schools. And a year later, I do not at all regret my decision. While I believe that you could receive a marginally better education if you choose Yale over UNC, the difference is simply not worth $160,000 (or even $100,000 if you receive some aid) over four years, especially if you are committed to going to graduate or law school. Yale may open a few more doors for you, but it you come to Carolina, get involved, do research, and make the grades, you will likely not be any worse off than your Ivy League peers. </p>

<p>At the end of the day, the choice is yours, and while I would recommend taking the money and running with it, you are choosing between two extraordinary opportunities. You really can’t go wrong either way.</p>

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<p>Cloying did a great job speaking about the relevant factors, but I just have to chime in here and say that our alumni network is PHENOMENAL! As I’ve been abroad, I’ve met tons of former tar heels and they all are incredibly helpful and supportive in connecting us to internship opportunities and resources. To be completely honest, I was a bit surprised that they were so willing to help us, but it’s always wonderful to talk to fellow tar heels. I’ve also had two internship interviews (granted, for in state companies) and I’ve had one person flat out say “I went to the journalism school at Carolina, so I’m rooting for you” and one who said that she always prioritized Carolina applicants. Of course, you’re going to get that to some extent at any school, but Carolina really does have an incredibly supportive and dedicated alumni network.</p>

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<p>I suggest Carolina with the full scholarship, especially if you want to major in English, where Carolina has one of the top (ie in the top 3) English departments in the country. Yale is awesome, but you are not just attending Carolina, but Carolina in the very exclusive Carolina scholars program which will provide many special perks (ie classes, faculty and administrative interaction etc).</p>

<p>Having said all that, Yale is not especially intense (not like Princeton or Cornell). Yale tends to be a very open and supportive environment and grade inflation is pretty rampant there (of course, the students are also brilliant and that might help too). So, I would not base your decision on the intensity of Yale because that does not exist much at the undergrad level.</p>

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<p>keepittoyourself - not trying to derail or disagree with you, but people don’t realize just how bimodal salaries are straight out of law school are, and just how difficult those jobs are, even within top 20 schools. My sister in law graduated from NYU law and had friends all around the top ten, and they all say that public interest is actually more competitive than top firms at this point. It makes sense: better hours, better cause, no worries about loans. But a large percentage of people at the top schools aren’t scoring those top firms/clerkships/public interest whatevers. Law school is a huge gamble right now - even for bright students. Plenty of people graduate from top schools and end up making $80k at small firms. That sounds like a lot, but if they’re in NYC, Chicago, DC, or LA, you’ve got high taxes and COL, and average debt for graduating law students is around $140k.</p>

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<p>cloying - you are right. I spoke too quickly. I agree with what you say about law school loans- I suppose I was stuck in 2008 a bit!</p>

<p>About the Carolina network, well of course… but the Yale network is there too, and it includes far more Presidents and Prime Ministers, not to mention company presidents etc. The Yale alumni network is a global elite. Carolina isn’t, sorry.</p>

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<p>Wow, I’m so impressed by all the comments above and am so grateful that you all took the time to lend me this advice, all of which was equally persuasive. I’ll be visiting Yale’ campus next week to take a peek at the student body and so forth. I’m apprehensive of attending UNC exclusively because of the money, given the potential regret or embitterment I might feel later on. That said, I still have a week or so to investigate more; maybe heading South would suit me well after all.</p>

<p>The point is, anyways, that I’m not sure right now, but I will most definitely take into account all the points raised. On another note, I’m really not sure if law school appeals to me. (Perhaps a Phd would suit me better; plus the cost of attaining a law degree is a bit of a drag, to tell you the truth). Two questions for cloying: What attracted you to law? Additionally, when you mentioned that it is unwise “to go to law school without a scholarship, unless someone’s helping you pay,” this makes me wonder, how often are these circumstances attained?</p>

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<p>I don’t want to sound insulting, but keepittoyourself is a very small minority in choosing UNC for the money and hating it here. I have several friends who turned down ivies for full rides here and everybody I know is very happy with their decision.</p>

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<p>You have no idea why I chose UNC. And who said I hate it here? I’m afraid you do sound insulting.</p>

<p>Nobody is saying that if OP chose UNC over Yale for money she couldn’t be happy here. But it’s important to admit that she would be giving things up for that money. Yale is a better university, in every respect. But then, Yale is better than almost every university.</p>

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<p>Just typed a long reply to have the page reload and lose it. That’s a bummer! On my iPad, please forgive typos and hurried tone…</p>

<p>Yale is not better than Carolina in every regard. Our southern folklife collection is the best in the world (and worth a look!). We’ve got a strong sense of the middle class - that won’t be as present at Yale. Better athletic programs, gyms, exercise and sport science programs. New Haven is not a place to write home about. And no, of course I am not ragging on Yale, but the place is not perfect and it IS very expensive. You are essentially buying a house without a house at the end of the transaction - assuming you pursue the same field of study, will your earning potential be that much higher having graduated a Yalie as opposed to a Tar Heel? I really don’t think so. In terms of your studies, Yale is the only clear winner if you plan on going into finance or would like to go into traditional engineering. Yale might have stronger programs than Carolina in a number of departments, but Carolina is still very much one of the best schools in the country. Plus, as a Carolina Scholar, you will have access to a number of classes that might not actually be an option at Yale. For instance, my Honors Bio 101 course had around ten people, and we sat around a table for lecture. I found it very difficult, but it easily one of my favorite courses. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that that isn’t an option at Yale.</p>

<p>An aside - contact eadad. His son turned down Yale for UNC several years ago and is in med school now.</p>

<p>Ok, so re: grad school. Sounds like you have no idea what you’re really into, if law school was a possibility yesterday but today things look hazier based off of commentary from someone in a forum. :slight_smile: That’s a good thing - keep your doors wide open. I was lucky in that I knew I was interested in law from pretty early on. My school did national/international supreme court debate competitions and so I learned to love/appreciate the constitution and the subtlety of language in high school. In undergrad I was resolved to do anything but “pre law” and in doing so got into educational/racial bias research at a psych lab. This is personal but who cares - meanwhile, my boyfriend started a record label and I got really interested in entrepreneurship. At this point, I see a lot of opportunities in law. I’m interested in judicial clerkships (constitutional), would like to keep growing my consulting company and incorporate a legal education to learn how to help others grow small businesses, plus, public interest has always been what drives me in general. I sincerely hope my description of what brought me to law school is not stupidly confusing. I am tapping at this iPad at record speeds…</p>

<p>On to money. For law school, there are two advisable options:</p>

<p>1) you want to practice in the small town where you’re from
Then go to the regional law school near you for near free. This isn’t hard to do if you have a good GPA and did reasonably well on the LSAT. So, I’m from Greensboro, NC, originally. UNC Law is the ONLY place you should go if you want to practice in NC. Some people advocate for Wake… I don’t know where they get their numbers from. Every member of the NC State Supreme Court (as of when I checked a year ago) went to UNC Law. Doesn’t matter if I could get into Yale Law. If you want your small town, you need to study in your small town. There are a number if reasons for this, but for “brevity” I’ll stop here.</p>

<p>2) you want to practice in NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, Boston, etc…
Top 20 or bust. Top 10s are probably worth sticker price… I guess. I don’t really think so, but people do that all the time. Big law salaries tend to start at 160k, and if they’re hiring you from Harvard or UT Austin, your salary will be the same. The reason people pay sticker at the top 10 more often is because big law is more likely. But, as I’ve said, it’s still not a guarantee. There are really only about two law schools in the country where you’re guaranteed big law… And it’s not like the experience is beautiful. My sister works at Skadden and it’s pretty grueling stuff.</p>

<p>To get accepted to top 20 (let’s assume you make a 3.6 or above at Yale or UNC), you’ll need 93rd percentile or higher on the LSAT. Top 10, it’s more like 99th and above (170 and up), no joke. So… Gaining acceptance to those is honestly pretty dang tough. BUT, all schools give out scholarships. You have to negotiate and okay their game of negotiation, but it’s definitely not impossible. Plenty of people go to the top 20 schools without a scholarship, but I think the statistic is that most (prob a little over 50 percent) don’t.</p>

<p>I personally would absolutely go to Stanford or Yale at sticker. That’s pretty much it. The reason being that Yale can’t be beaten for judicial clerkships and it is a tiny, tiny school. Stanford is similar and has the added bonus of being out in California. But, not too sadly for me…well, actually, I didn’t even apply to either! Haha. Law school admissions is so numbers based that there was no chance of me getting in to either. I studied for the LSAT for over 100 hours and still was only in the 95th percent! Anyway, my $.02.</p>

<p>OP - you have two really good choices. Yale is Yale, and the Carolina Scholars program and Carolina experience is an incredible opportunity. I personally would make my own decision for Carolina every time given the choice, but I understand the motivation people have for choosing Yale. I’ve known several people to choose both… And no one seems to have any regrets. I bet you won’t, no matter which you choose. Good luck as always, and feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.</p>

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<p>There are a few departments where UNC is better than Yale, but where UNC is in the top 50, Yale is a top 3 school. I do agree that for med or law school it doesn’t matter where you go, it matters what numbers you get (though don’t discount being around smarter people pushing you to work harder). For Phd it’s a bit more dicey.</p>

<p>For a lot of business/finance/consulting jobs, undergraduate prestige is still hugely important. They’re very focussed on what will ‘impress the client’, and like to be able to say we have x people from Harvard and y people from Yale. If it was somewhere not quite as good, like Cornell or Duke, it might not matter. But Yale (along with Princeton, Harvard, MIT, LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, and a few others) has a stratospheric reputation. It might well be worth $150,000 especially if you don’t need loans for it.</p>

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<p>Be careful of home bias - you know about all the opportunities at UNC, but you don’t know about all the opportunities at Yale.</p>

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<p>keepittoyourself, I’m sorry for assuming, but from other posts of yours it seemed like in state tuition or other financially-related things were some of the main reasons behind your choice.</p>

<p>I understand that you are not happy here and that you want to give prospective students the other side of all the great things people say. And it’s good to have both perspectives. However, I have never met anybody with so many complaints about UNC and I don’t want prospective students to think that a lot of students have your point of view when the vast majority are extremely happy to be here.</p>