Meritocracy vs. Diversity....is there a right answer?

Parents Forum
201

It’s not the high ceiling that is the primary reason some tests are less preppable – it’s the content. For example, it’s relatively common for intro STEM type college exams to be graded on a curve rather than on a 90-100% = A, 80-89% = B, … scale. Some intro STEM college exams have such a high ceiling that nobody in a class of hundreds gets a perfect score. I had one class in which it was common for the highest score in a group of hundreds of Stanford students to be ~80%. However, the high ceiling did not mean studying for the class offered little benefit beyond going in blind. . If anything, the reverse was more likely to be true compared to college exams with lower ceilings.

The high ceiling on curved intro STEM classes often occurs due to some combination of limited time and/or applying the text/lecture material in original ways that demonstrate a true understanding beyond rote regurgitation of lectures. Practicing exam questions and knowing the material well becomes increasing important when you need to apply it in original ways like this and need to answer problems quickly. Sure, not everyone will be capable of getting the highest score in the class, but you don’t need to get the highest score in the class. An A might be at 80%, 70%, or even a 50% after the curve.

It’s a similar idea for the SHSAT. The majority of the test content relates to ~7th grade common core material, which is generally well preppable. For example, a student might start by taking a practice exam. If the exam shows that they are missing questions about use of commas and semicolons in sentence structure, then they should review related portions of the 7th grade language arts common core and related past exam questions. If they are missing a different area, then again they should review whatever areas they are weak. It also helps to take multiple practice in exams in recognizing speed issues, and learning what are the most effective sections of the exam to spend time on. Sure, nearly all students will reach some type of limit and not be able to get a perfect score, but you don’t need a perfect score. Most students don’t even need a score even near the high ceilings to get admitted to a good HS. In the study years, a ~75% correct = ~82nd percentile combined score was enough for admission to the 3rd most selective SHSAT admission school (Brooklyn Tech). I expect the vast majority of admitted students to Brooklyn Tech were well below the high section ceilings and certainly well below ~100%. They wouldn’t have been the equivalent of a national math contest winner, but they didn’t need to be scoring at the high ceilings. It’s true that there are some students who would never reach the necessary ~82nd percentile for Brooklyn Tech, but that does not mean that prep offers little benefit.

If the exam content more focused on vocabulary like pre-1995 SAT and less on 7th grade common core material, then my response would be quite different. As I noted earlier, it’s far more difficult to increase your general vocabulary through prep than it is to prep for an exam that emphasizes middle school course content.

202

I’ve seen no evidence that the SHSAT is a particularly effective way of identifying giftedness. Maybe it’s my age showing, but back when I was arranging IQ testing for my daughter at age 6, I was under the impression that preparing or practicing for the tests would have invalided the results, so there was no at home practice for the WISC or the KEA.

And I still find it puzzling that all these so-called “gifted” kids at Stuy find it necessary to cheat once they get there. That doesn’t sound like an environment for “gifted” kids to me – I don’t know if it is a process of the selection process or an unsupportive and inappropriate academic environment – but it does tell me that something is very, very wrong with that picture.

I agree with you. However, I also think that part of the problem is that the use of the SHSAT as a sole measure along with the prep & cram culture means that entry decision is made on single data point that doesn’t accurately reflect relative ability.

I wouldn’t have wanted my daughter to attend a school like Stuy even if she had the opportunity – for one thing, from a pedagogical perspective, I think it’s pretty much the last place on earth I would want to send a highly gifted teenager. But if I were setting up a school meant for the most capable learners within a district, I’d want the selection based on more reliable and consistent data. Not a single test administration, and definitely not a test administered in the context that the SHSAT and SAT’s & ACT’s are currently given.

If a kid takes the SAT cold and scores 1400, and that kid then preps extensively, retakes, and increases the score to 1550 – that kid isn’t any more “gifted” or capable by virtue of the 1550 score. Just better prepped.

What the prepping system does do is set up an avenue by which some people can push ahead by virtue of concentrated effort. Concentrated effort is laudable, but it is not the same as inherent ability. Nor is it the same as sustained effort over time or demonstrated achievement. In a holistic environment, where the test scores are considered along with other factors, then the scores can be beneficial to those who earn them, without being detrimental to those who fall short of a high testing bar.

203

It’s certainly not only Chinese-Americans who prep, but there are some related cultural difference. One of the key differences is the Gaokao, which is the college entrance exam in China, and the primary determinant of college admission in China. The exam takes ~9 hours and covers material from a wide variety of subjects including math, English, sciences, and social sciences. Many students spend months prepping for the exam, with a scheduled plan of multiple hours of prep every day, in some cases 6+ hours a day. For example, there was a recent news story and documentary about a cram school with 16 hours of daily school/Gaokao prep, 7 days a week. HS content is often directed around Gaokao preparation, and Gaokao exam scores are tied to teachers’ salaries. It’s not uncommon to spend a notable portion of income on exam tutors or even move students to a different location for better Gaokao prep. Flights are redirected to avoid disturbing students taking exams, cars avoid honking on exam day, and even the Olympic torch has been altered. It’s typically a different level of exam prep than students in the US are used to.

204

@calmom

I don’t see how this is different from studying for biology or mathematics or history tests. Should we look down on studying because it’s not a true measure of “inherent ability”?

And people dislike holistic admissions because it’s the loophole that enables schools to make decisions based on a person’s race. Standardized testing has been important for recognizing the talent of children from families that are low-income or minorities. Your whole post strikes me as written from a privileged point of view where you don’t have to face the mess of discrimination or socioeconomic obstacles introduced by “holistic” systems. Maybe the system isn’t perfect as is, but these aren’t workable alternatives.

205

What’s interesting is that all of this standardized testing is being argued pro/con for undergrad but where as testing is a critical area for grad school (especially professional schools) there isn’t much concern.

206

Perhaps that may have been more true in the past. But when any measure of merit is not fully advantageous to the high SES, the high SES will deploy money to boost their kids’ performance on that measure of merit (e.g. test prep seems to be assumed now, even though it was less common and less intensive in the past).

207

@calmom wrote “I’ve seen no evidence that the SHSAT is a particularly effective way of identifying giftedness. Maybe it’s my age showing, but back when I was arranging IQ testing for my daughter at age 6, I was under the impression that preparing or practicing for the tests would have invalided the results, so there was no at home practice for the WISC or the KEA.” Probably true. But, the SHSAT isn’t designed - or intended to be - an IQ test. It is designed to select kids who will do well at Stuy (and Bronx Sci, Tech, and the other exam schools). And for that limited purpose, it does quite well.

208

Unless a school is prepared to make it’s curriculum less rigorous (so everyone admitted appears to be “qualified”, by definition), there’s no alternative to rigorous testing, is there?

209

Does it select kids who will be successful at Stuy quite well? The previously linked study in post #61 found that SHSAT score only explained 5% of variance in first year GPA at Stuy, which dropped off in later years down to explaining less than 2% of variance in senior year GPA. Bronx School of Science fared even worse. The math SHSAT predicted only 0.2% of variance in first year GPA at Bronx Sci… the math section appeared to have essentially zero relationship with success at Bronx School of Science, as measured by first year GPA. The raw SHSAT scection scores predicted GPA better than the scaled scores with the weighting at tals, suggesting that the unique SHSAT scaling with weighting at the tails is not helping this relatively poor predictive ability.

There is an obvious issue with range restriction, although the unique nature of the test with favoring students with unbalanced scores does allow a significant range on specific subsections. For example, the first study found that Bronx Sci accepted students had math SHSAT ranging from 54th percentile to 99+th percentile. With this degree of range, the math score still appeared to have almost no predictive ability. The lack of prediction with this restricted range suggests that small differences in SHSAT score are not particularly meaningful. That is, if the schools were to admit kids with SHSAT scores that were slightly below the current cutoff, there would be little expected difference in performance of those below SHSAT cutoff students at Stuy or Bronx Sci from those somewhat above the cutoff. This opens the door to alternative policies for favoring higher middle school GPA kids who are a little below the cutoff and such. The author states, *“In summary, the SHSAT, in the absence of other information, is most imprecise in the region of scores near the cutoff scores, which is where it needs to be most precise.” *

Even if you try to estimate validity across the full test score range using Thorndike corrections for the restricted range, the overwhelming portion of variance in GPA at Stuy or Bronx Sci relates to other factors besides SHSAT. If the goal is to predict kids who will do well at Stuy, there are far more accurate methods than just using SHSAT score alone. The only alternative method the author reviewed was achievement tests, which explained 2.3x more variance in first year GPA than did SHSAT scores among Stuy students and explained 3.0x more variance among Bronx Sci students. I’d expect middle school GPA to be even more predictive of high school GPA than either SHSAT or achievement tests. A combination of factors could likely do better than any one factor alone. However, it’s not clear to me that predicting who will do well at Stuy is the primary goal of SHSAT.

Alternative admission methods could also drastically improve the noted issue with SHSAT underpredicting women. Among the low first year GPA kids with a less than 80% FYGPA, 88% of the low GPA kids at both Stuy and Bronx Sci were male. While most of the high GPA kids at both high schools were female. The SHSAT admission is creating a system where the overwhelming majority of kids who are unsuccessful at Stuy and Bronx Sci are male. I suspect much of this difference in rates of academic success at Stuy between genders occurs because the women averaged a higher middle school GPA, and that higher middle school GPA was not considered in admission decisions. If this is the case, then making adjustments to avoid admitting low middle school GPA kids would drastically improve the gender imbalance among academically unsuccessful kids at Stuy and Bronx Sci.

210

Top grad & professional schools have holistic admissions. In addition to testing, they consider undergraduate record, GPA, LOR’s, essay, and often work experience as relevant criteria for admissions. There are also multiple opportunities for grad students to retest if they choose. Many students who have strong credentials beyond the test will be accepted over students with higher test scores but weaker applications in other respects. The test is just viewed as one piece of data in package – and a student whose academics are weaker isn’t going to get selected simply based on strong test scores.

The problem here isn’t that a test is used, but that the test is the ONLY criteria for admission. Theoretically, a kid could have a C average in middle school & a documented history of cheating in school … and still get into the exam schools because they aren’t allowed to consider any factors other than the test.

211

There is not just a single set of rigorous courses that all students take. Some students at Stuy may choose to take an AP version of a class, and some students at Stuy may choose to a non-AP version of the same class. Some may choose to fulfill graduation requirements with a completely different class that does not have an AP equivalent. Some classes also have honors and non-honors versions. The AP level classes often have some kind of >90% GPA requirement to be eligible to prevent students who are less likely to be academically successful from taking the more rigorous classes. They also have an annual AP total cap based on GPA to prevent students from “facing excessive academic demands.”. For example, a Stuy student with a 92% average would be allowed to enroll in a maximum of 2 AP classes per year, while a student with a higher 95+% GPA would be allowed to enroll in up to 4 AP classes per year.

A similar statement could be said about many public high schools in wealthier areas. One thing that separates Stuy from other public high schools is that they have larger critical mass of students who are interested and capable of taking the rigorous classes, so they can offer more such courses than most public HSs of their size. For example, Stuy offers a multivariable calc class that is beyond AP level.

A similar principle applies to most other selective schools. For example, rather than offer a single math class for all students, Harvard has new freshman take a short math placement test that gives a recommendation of what course to begin with. It might recommend any of the following – Math Ma,b; 1a,b; 19a,b; 20; 21a,b; 23a,b; 25a,b; and 55a,b. The lowest level (MA) is a half normal speed calc/pre-calc type class, while Harvard’s website describes math 55 as “probably the most difficult undergraduate math class in the country”. They also have placement advisers that discuss the placement and results, as well as considering math course background and AP score from high school, and desired field of study and future goals, allowing the student to discuss what course is the best fit.

212

where as testing is a critical area for grad school (especially professional schools) there isn’t much concern.

I can only speak from our experience, but one of my kids was accepted by the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton and offered a full scholarship to Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government despite having decidedly mediocre GRE scores and a 3.7 GPA. The deciding factors seemed to be work experience, recommendations and the college you attended. Indeed, my S got to know the Dean at Woodrow Wilson who said that they informally “adjust” GPAs to allow for the fact that colleges have very different standards. One of his roommates came from University of Chicago where he had a 3.3 GPA.

213

First, @calmom, in all the years I’ve lived in NYC, I’ve never heard Stuy referred to as a school for “gifted” kids.The SHSAT doesn’t claim to be measuring IQ.

When there is an objective test, it’s harder to rig things and it’s actually less likely to be biased against a particular group, at least when it comes to 8th and 9th graders. Lets not forget that the Ivies introduced “holistic” admissions to limit the number of Jews and, to a lesser extent, Catholics, who enrolled.

Grades are very subjective. They vary among schools and they vary among teachers in the same school. Particularly in elementary & middle school, some teachers put undue emphasis on presentation, e.g., a neatly typed book report with a pretty drawing on the cover may get a better grade than a handscrawled one with many crossings out but with more insightful content. And when teachers know that some special outcome depends on grades, they change their grading system. During the War In Vietnam, when losing your student deferment meant you had an excellent chance of being drafted, fewer professors were willing to flunk people. One of my former employers had a tuition reimbursement program which reimbursed tuition based on the grades you got. Many of its employees attended a nearby private college which had a good evening program. When profs figured out that giving someone a C meant the person got no tuition back and that meant in many cases the employees would either drop out or reduce the number of credit hours they were taking, professors were hesistant to give anything lower than a B. It eventually caused a problem at the college because students paying their tuition themselves complained that students in tuition assistance programs were getting higher grades for the same quality work.

So, I suspect if a teacher knows that having a 98 average means you have a shot at getting into Stuy and 96 means you won’t, teachers will give the 98. It’s already a problem in some middle schools where few students are interested in exam schools.

Plus in many areas of the City, how well the middle school does in high school placement affects the desirability of attending the middle school. If teachers give lower grades than those at comparable middle schools and the result is fewer kids from that middle school get into the better high schools, that means fewer kids with academic ambitions will apply to that middle school.

LORs? Well, a lot of public elementary and middle schools in the City depend heavily on parental donations. Give more honest LORs and see those donations dry up.

Interviews? In some cultures, it is rude for a young person to make eye contact when speaking to an adult (s)he doesn’t work well. It really hurts those kids in interviews. Kids can also have a tough time in interviews if they have rarely interacted with adults of other backgrounds. I used to do alum interviews for an Ivy. I once interviewed a young man who was extraordinarily awkward during the interview. Half way through, he told me he had never before spoken to a white person who wasn’t a teacher or a doctor. He was a senior in high school.

NYC has an unusually varied network of high schools. It really isn’t a matter of Stuy, Bx Science, Tech or community college is your only option.

214

Absolutely true. This occurred quite spectacularly and was well documented in connection with the Petrides School on Staten Island.

There are also schools (Bard, for example) and programs (IB) which require their own proprietary entrance exams, interviews, and grades in some specific combination. There are a lot of people who think Bard is the best public high school in the City. The private schools also require their own test, as do the Catholic Schools - and that test can come with very large scholarships. Regis, the best Catholic High School in the City, has it’s own test, as well.

There are nine SHSAT schools. They are nothing more than nine among many amazing options.

215

In this thread we debated a lot about the merits of standardized testing. I’m not that convinced either way, but the heart of the issue is the racialized treatment of Asian Americans. It’s clear that de Blasio is specifically targeting that ethnic group. So while testing might not be the optimal admission system, it’s something we have to defend in the short term in order to stand up to these racial attacks.

216

If you eliminate every possible metric that could be imperfect, then you wouldn’t have any possible criteria to evaluate students. However, if you include multiple metrics, then you have the possibility of a far higher predictive accuracy than possible with any one single metric. For example, if you refuse to consider middle school transcript at all because grades are imperfect, then you might be admitting a student who gets mediocre grades in his remedial level classes over a student 4.0 GPA student who takes honors classes with nearly the same SHSAT. This obviously isn’t the most typical scenario, but nor are many of the cases you listed.

217

@wyzragamer

No, not at all. De Blasio is concerned about African American and hispanic students, who are clearly experiencing the discriminatory effect of a standard that makes it close to impossible for them to gain admissions to the exam schools.

Whatever the intent in the law – the end result is clear. The NYC public school system is about 40% hispanic & 26% black. Among students who took the SHSAT exam, almost 20% were black, and more than 24% were hispanic. Among students offered admission to exam schools this year, 6.6% were hispanic and 4% were black. (https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/)

So basically is test is very effective at weeding out blacks and hispanics. A black student this year had a 3.5% of getting admitted to an exam school; a hispanic student had a 4.8%

In contrast, a white student had 27.3% of an offer, and an Asian student had a 29% chance of admission.

If the admission system were race-neutral, then every candidate would have a 17.4% chance of admission. (The overall admit rate)

So that’s prima facie evidence that the current process has a discriminatory effect.

That puts the burden on officials to tease out details and address the problem. Probably many ways to do that, but bottom line they either have to change the existing system or provide multiple, alternate paths to admission

218

@calmom While the #s won’t change that much, these are numbers for offers made thus far. Assuming that it survives legally challenges, 11 per cent of the class will be filled later through the Discovery Program.

219

Well, the offers of admission would be the relevant standard for ascertaining discriminatory effect of the exam. If there are significant racial disparities in the numbers of students who turn down their offers, that would be due to something other than the exam. In theory you might find that black & hispanic students turn down their spots precisely because their numbers are so low – that is, they may not want to attend a school where they will be in such a small minority of the class. But there could also be an array of different reasons-- such as choice of another specialized high school, or geographical issues, especially if they did not make the cutoffs for their topped ranked choices.

220

deleted