In our country, we have magnet High Schools. Students who want to apply have to take a test. The schools take the top two from each sending schoo (assuming they meet a minimum score)l. Then there are some slots for the top test takers in the county. I think this is fair because you get a chance even if your school district is not as strong, but if you are the third in a strong school district, you still get to go.
@ rickle1: âFamilies have to WANT and be prepared to DO something about that WANT. Kids who have families that donât âbuy inâ donât do well (and are often replaced for behavior reasons) at this school. Home environment is a big deal.â
This is something I donât think anyone would disagree with. This (homelife) is the starting point, and this can either buttress or jackknife the efforts and trajectory of a motivated, talented kid.
Family clearly plays the most critical role here. If a dish washer at a Chinese restaurant forces his kid to prep every Saturday, there is really not much the government can do about it.
I didnât realize the amount of time kids in the city are spending prepping for the SHSAT! Apparently, many children of immigrants from countries where standadized testing is paramount in education are taking multiple prep courses at once. Itâs not uncommon to prep for two years, two hours every day after school, and then from 10-5:00 on Saturdays.
From an enlightening New Republic article:
The concept of âmeritâ is tricky. Our country needs citizens and leaders with a wide variety of qualities and strengths. The ability to sit in a chair and study for a single test for approximately 2,000 hours at ages 10-13 does not seem like something that would lead to innovative thinking, intellectual breakthroughs or ingenuity. Iâd also say the SHSAT is selecting for the values and discipline of the parents more than the children, because prep is starting so young.
Then again, as the article points out, there are plenty of avenues for success through the city high schools that donât use the SHSAT.
https://newrepublic.com/article/151328/whose-side-asian-americans-on
I think the focus on the SHSAT schools is misguided. My child was admitted to Stuyvesant the year the current admissions process was instituted. Because she was what the state called a âone percenter,â she had amazing choices and benefits (those kids get a totally different admissions process) of public school programs, as well as private school full scholarships. When the final list of her choices was before her, Stuyvesant was not only not her best option, it wasnât in the top three. She ended up choosing an option that was absolutely perfect for her and from which the graduates went on to the best colleges in the country. The specialized schools are to more and less degrees, very specialized. Staten Island Tech, for example, teaches only Russian for a language and is an engineering school that has to pair with a larger general school for athletics and extracurriculars. The humanities offerings are very limited. Those schools are not right for everyone, and I suspect that there is in the new immigrant community, a very narrow focus on those schools because they are so well-known, whereas in other communities, parents are more familiar with the tippy top programs in other schools that do spectacular things for students as successful as the ones who choose to attend the specialized schools.
Why do so many people in this thread seem to be allergic to the idea that test prep is so unfair? In no other sphere would hard work towards objective achievement be so demonized. No one says that the NBA isnât a meritocracy because the players practice too much.
I suspect underlying everything thereâs stereotyping and suspicion against Asians as cheaters or gaming the system because people are afraid of the changing demographics.
I donât consider standardized tests to be either objective or a sign of achievement.
There doesnât seem to be a good answer. Of course, improving the elementary and middle schools is the real answer, but nobody has figured out how to do that on a large scale. Recent reports on charter schools in NYC show that in general, charter students have stronger educational gains per year than public schools, but still fall below the average test state scores. The caveat is that charter schools are choice schools, meaning a parent has to find the charter and apply. While most charters cannot pick and choose their students, the kids that attend may have parents who are more motivated and supportive of education than those that stay in the local public schools.
Getting rid of the test and taking the top student from each middle school would likely result in higher diversity but might require less academic rigor for students from lower performing middle schools to do well. And kids at higher performing schools may be at a disadvantage if they are the 10th or 20th best student there, even if they have the ability to do well. Further, how do you choose the top student at a middle school? Grades alone? That canât be the only criterion. Grades plus test scores? The criticism of the test is that students who get test prep have an unfair advantage. NYC has tried to expand free test prep for low income students with limited success.
One thing the NYC administration is doing that seems to be lost in all these stories (a minimal mention in the OP link) is to set aside up to 20% of seats for kids that just missed the cutoff but requires a summer program. The criteria for the program is being changed to only accept students from high poverty middle schools which is expected to increase diversity.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/discovery-program-specialized-schools-nyc.html
The thing youâre missing is that most of the local public schools have programs that are as selective and rigorous as the specialized testing schools, and many families actively choose those programs. Part of the reason why the specialized schools are so heavily Asian is that the families tend to be a diverse group of newer immigrants who arenât savvy enough to choose other options. Itâs misleading to think, as is often portrayed in the media, that there are specialized schools and then there are sewers. Thatâs not true at all. There are many options in NYC for super-high achieving kids, and many kids who could get into the SHSAT schools donât make that choice. When applying for high schools in NYC, the process is monstrous. Absolutely monstrous. However, students are required to apply to 12 options in addition to the separate SHSAT process. In doing so, families do a lot of research and attend open houses and high school fairs. People who are open-minded often find programs that are a better fit than the SHSAT schools. Thatâs really a thing, and itâs been my experience that more affluent families often cast a wider net.
For me, this hyper fixation on prep (not just Asian students in my neck of the woods) is not that itâs unfair, but itâs what fuels the fire in causing stress, anxiety, depression, and ultra competition in our children. Itâs robbing them of their childhood, which no longer seems to include free play and down time.
Sports and the arts are equally to blame. Gone are the days where kids could play just for the love of a game. As soon as there is any spark, the coaches push for off season clubs, travel teams, etc⊠And itâs not just sports, itâs anything that kids seem to excel in. My daughter had to fend off dance teachers, piano teachers, and volleyball coaches. At age 8, the dance teacher told her she should move to the competitive dance team - training 6 days/week. At 11, the piano teacher freaked out that she wanted to play volleyball and accompany the school choir and that she needed to practice a minimum of 20 hours/week of only classical music and composition. By 12, she needed to be playing volleyball year round.
DD wasnât interested doing all of one thing, so we went to bat for her. Lots and lots of push back on how she was going to be âbehindâ and not be able to âcompeteâ when she got to HS, let alone be competitive for colleges. We pushed back and advocated for what DD wanted. She did no outside test prep for her HS entrance exam and no ACT/SAT outside prep beyond what was done at her school during her classes and practice tests at home. She would have been one and done with ACT but the state made her take it again as a graduation requirement.
And guess what? She was able to have her childhood, be a happy well adjusted HS student who loved school, and did just fine in college admission.
Is she at an Ivy? Nope. Wasnât interested in applying and not a good fit for her. Does it matter? NOPE. Sheâs at a T20 for engineering, thriving, happy, and with internships and co-ops lined up.
IMO, this ultra prep, whether it be academics, sports, or arts, is what also fuels the cheating scandal. Parents need to back off, let kids be kids, and realize that it isnât Harvard or bust.
Lost in all of it is changing the definition of âdisadvantagedâ for the Discovery program not only to low income, but also to students of middle schools which underperform on the SHSAT (see https://cityandstateny.com/articles/opinion/diversify-new-york-city-discovery-program.html). This is in response to the demographic fact that the Asians who perform well on the SHSAT include many who are low income but attend high performing middle schools in ethnic enclaves. Itâs deliberately targeting these students.
My objection, however, isnât as strong as purely race/ethnicity based diversity programs which are certainly illegal under the law. And I suspect that the dedicated parent would find a way for their children to enroll in those underperforming middle schools to even it all out.
@austinmshauri Standardized tests certainly are objective, and I would argue that they are as much a mark of achievement as anything else in middle school (how fast you can throw a ball or how high you can jump, for example).
@momofsenior1 This is your experience as a person with white middle/upper class privilege. The truth is that for many low-income immigrant families (like those disproportionately targeted by de Blasioâs policies) getting their children into selective universities really is that important to get the family out of poverty. Theyâre banking on the upward mobility and meritocracy promised by America in order to escape those harsh socioeconomic conditions.
In Detroit, where 10% of the population (white) receives 90% of the resources and lives the dream, the other 90% of the population (minorities and most of the children) lives in abandoned, blighted, lawless neighborhood war zones. The message is loud and clear. Life in such places is reduced to a matter of survival. Its demands are immediate. Exceptions are few, and they are prized with good reason. Test prep? LOL. As Iâve said before, I would stand those exceptions up against anyone.
There are other high schools in NYC that do exactly that for poor and immigrant students. Itâs not SHSAT or nothing.
@wyzragamer I donât think people think test prep is unfair. But I certainly do worry about the intensity of it and what that will do to a childâs mental health and well being.
I am the parent of a 7 year old in addition to 2 college age girls. I see this mentality creeping into my community. More and more kids are doing Kumon for hours each day on weekends and after school. Its frankly a bit frightening. I donât want that for my daughter. Of course, I donât have to buy into it, but I canât help worrying about what kind of disadvantage she will have if things keep going this way.
Iâm not saying that anything should be âdoneâ about it. Iâm not even suggesting that the elite high schools should change their testing policy. I am only sharing one parentâs concern about where this is going.
@zoosermom OK, now go tell that message that to the black and Hispanic students who are allegedly disadvantageed by the SHSAT.
I agree that higher education is the pathway out of poverty. I disagree that it has to be âselective universities.â One of the most generous schools in our state is a smaller public that probably no one has even heard of outside the state. Close to 30 students from my ddâs graduating class are there on full or almost full rides. Those students will leave school well educated, with zero debt, and employers in the area flock to the schoolâs career fair as the students are known to be well prepared and hard working. This school is ranked in the top 200+. Itâs a fallacy that prestigious colleges are the only pathway to success.
PS. Iâm first generation. The first on either side of the family born in this country and the first to go to college. Yes, my dd has been extremely privileged, but we understand the sacrifices and struggles.
Yes! This is the point that is so often missed by everyone who complains about the intensity of test prep or the mania for elite universities. Those universities are often the only place where a student can get an affordable education. The brilliant low income student is going to priced out of many âpublicâ universities. Run the net price calculator for a very low income family trying to afford Pennsylvania public colleges. Its horrendous.
The answer is to make college affordable to ALL college ready kids, not just the top 1 percent. If parents knew that kids with 1350 SAT could get a good education, maybe the pressure cooker might ease up. But as long as the best way to get an affordable education is to get into one of the few elite schools that truly meets need, the arms race continues.
Standardized tests may be objective, but are they objective regarding useful skills? In our family people do very well on these tests without cramming.
I worry that some of these high schools have become pressure cookers for kids who have become so focused on grades and scores they lose sight of other things. The big cheating scandal a few years back where Stuyvesant kids were cheating on the Regents exam is an example of how unhealthy the atmosphere as become. The Regents exams are easy. No private college (that I know of) cares what score you got.) No kid taking the kind of course the average Stuy kid does is going to get less than a 90 on any of them. They are all getting Regentâs Diplomas with honors in their sleep. But they were cheating to get 99s and 100s. I do not think the cram schools are good for kids, but as long as these tests exist, I fear a significant portion of the population is going to be subjected to them. I think the high amount of anxiety disorders we are seeing are at least partly attributable to this phenomenon.