Miami losing ground to OSU???

Colleges and Universities A-Z Miami University - Ohio
1

<p>I heard recently that Governor Strickland has named OSU the flagship public university in Ohio. I wanted to know what Miami students thought of this. Historically, Miami has had the better academic reputation, but it seems as if it has been losing ground to OSU in recent years. OSU is now attracting higher quality freshman classes, practices more selective admissions, and has a significantly bigger endowment. Whenever I tell people I am considering Miami, they start to assume I was rejected by Ohio State. </p>

<p>I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinion, especially current Miami students. Where is Miami's future? Is it's prestige and recognition increasing or decreasing? What was Miami's response to the Governor's declaration?</p>

2

<p>I'm not too worried about Ohio "officially" calling Ohio State the flagship. That's pretty much what it's always been since the day the state founded it. No other public university in the state has anywhere near the mix of undergraduate, graduate and research. This isn't something that just occurred last week or last decade, so I don't view it as a threat to Miami.</p>

<p>Who would be the flagship? Not Miami; we don't have anywhere near the graduate, research or faculty profile of osu. UC? OU? Akron? They might have more graduate programs than Miami, but they're still decades behind Ohio State in that regard, and none of them come close to Ohio State for undergrad. If I'm looking at it as an objective Ohio taxpayer or government official, it makes perfect sense to call Ohio State the state's flagship university. </p>

<p>My only concern is will Miami have a special niche carved out for it in this university system or will we now be lumped in as just another OU or Bowling Green? I'd like Miami's strong undergraduate tradition to be recognized by the state and a special role for it carved out as an undergraduate focused school that operates at some level between Ohio State and the rest of the system.</p>

3

<p>Ohioguy, I honestly think you are asking the wrong question. Consider the specific academic programs and college atmosphere that is best conducive to your learning. Miami and OSU are very different in many ways - size, atmosphere, and focus. There is not a single public or private university in Ohio that offers the best undergraduate programs in everything (or anywhere near it). Regardless of endowment, Miami's business programs, semester/year abroad, zoology/pre-med, psychology (and other programs I'm sure I've forgotten) are well funded and at least as highly regarded as those at OSU. (By the way, most of OSU's endowment is tied to graduate programs and research.) Regardless of current developments, Miami graduates continue to receive exceptance to top graduate programs at a rate much higher than the national average. I also work with alums of BG, Akron, and Cleveland State who make $400,000+ annually and are exceptionally bright, so GO WHERE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE, and you will be successful. By the way, I took the liberty of looking at your other posts. Since you are looking at many schools outside of Ohio, if you plan to begin work or graduate school elsewhere, I can tell you based upon experience that an OSU degree will not buy you any more credibility than a Miami degree. (I live in Chicago). Do not get too wrapped up in the perception/reputation game. We all know that in the minds of many Ohio residents OSU is the only school that exists, due to the unavoidable cult-like sports following. Many Ohio residents smear Miami simply because it is not OSU.</p>

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<p>I would not dismiss osu's endowment as it relates to undergrad entirely. That 2 billion dollar endowment means scores of endowed faculty chairs. That means an ability to attract and fund some of the best faculty members in the nation.</p>

<p>My cousin, despite my lobbying for Mother Miami, just picked Ohio State over Miami. One of the things they made sure to tell him is that they have almost 30 members of the National Academy of Sciences and Engineering on their faculty, while ALL of the other Ohio publics COMBINED have 1! He's looking to combine a hard science degree with a humanities degree. In the humanities college, they made sure to inform him that Ohio State faculty have won more Guggenheim Fellowships over the last quarter century than every public and private university in the state combined. When I told him to keep in mind that those level of faculty have their attention divided between undergrads, grads and research and that he might never interact with them, his response was, "at least I have a chance of interacting with them at Ohio State or Wisconsin. At Miami, I would have zero chance because they don't exist." I couldn't really argue with that.</p>

<p>Secondly, and probably more important than its role in faculty recruitment, that endowment funds massively more amounts of need based and merit based financial aid at Ohio State than at Miami. My cousin is a top student that Miami recruited hard--96th percentile of h.s. class/32 ACT. Even though Ohio State was harder to get into, it looks as though he'll get a substantially bettter merit aid package there than from Miami.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, he applied to Ohio State, Wisconsin and Miami. Miami was his safety, and once he received and acceptance from one of the two Big Ten schools, Miami was completely off the table. Right now, he's weighing merit aid packages from osu and uw and trying to decide whether Columbus or Madison is a better location to spend the next 4-5 years.</p>

<p>My point in telling all of this is that endowments do matter. That 2 billion dollar endowment that Ohio State is sitting on--soon to be added to by a 2.5 billion dollar fundraising campaign that launches this year--does effect the Miami-Ohio State competition for undergraduates, which is why The Love and Honor Campaign is so important to Miami's future and why Miami students and alumni need to do everything possible over the next two years to see that it gets to its goal. Unless Miami can build up a real endowment it will continue to fall further and further behind Ohio State and the rest of the Big Ten schools, regardless of whether the state considers Ohio State an official or unofficial "flagship." Miamians love to talk about how we're better than the Big Ten schools--now is the time to put our money where our mouths are!</p>

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<p>What is said may be true in Ohio, although I view it more as OSU raising its standards that Miami declining. But, as the parent of an out of state applicant recently admitted), I can tell you that Miami's reputation as a school kids love has made it a favorite in my part of the country - we are seeing MANY applicants to Miami from the two excellent private schools here in the DC area that my son went to and that my daughter is about to graduate from. I bet they outnumber appicants to OSU at those schools by well more than 10 to 1.</p>

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<p>That's very encouraging news, eli. Did Miami actively recruit your child's school? If so, was it just mailings to top students or did they send alumni or staff to attend college fairs and interview potential applicants? I'd love to hear more about Miami's efforts at bringing top students to Oxford.</p>

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<p>I'm not arguing that Miami should be the "flagship" school. My point is that there shouldn't be a "flagship" school. </p>

<p>Each of the Ohio public schools has their own different strengths. Without a doubt, OSU has the strongest engineering and Graduate programs. Miami has the stronger undergraduate experience. UC has (arguably) the best medical and law schools. OU has strong journalism programs. </p>

<p>Declaring one of these schools as the state's official "flagship" school subordinates all of the other institutions. Ohio's brightest students would give less consideration to the other schools and feel pressured to go to Ohio State--the supposed "best" school.</p>

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<p><a href="%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059856374-post7.html%5D#7%5B/url%5D"&gt;quote&lt;/a> I'm not arguing that Miami should be the "flagship" school. My point is that there shouldn't be a "flagship" school. </p>

<p>Each of the Ohio public schools has their own different strengths. Without a doubt, OSU has the strongest engineering and Graduate programs. Miami has the stronger undergraduate experience. UC has (arguably) the best medical and law schools. OU has strong journalism programs.</p>

<p>Declaring one of these schools as the state's official "flagship" school subordinates all of the other institutions. Ohio's brightest students would give less consideration to the other schools and feel pressured to go to Ohio State--the supposed "best" school.

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<p>A well supported argument that hopefully any OSU, OU, UC or Miami alumnus/alumnae would have the wisdom to make after graduating from their respective school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I'm not arguing that Miami should be the "flagship" school. My point is that there shouldn't be a "flagship" school.

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<p>It just seems like good public policy to me. The state systems around the country that are generally the most respected are the ones that have a clearly delineated hierarchy: Texas, Michigan, Wisconsin and most of all California. It would seem to me that Ohio's system of letting schools compete against one another has led to a rather redundant and overpriced higher education system.</p>

<p>Trying to take the red and white glasses off and look at it purely from the standpoint of what's best for the state's residents and taxpayers--even if that deals a blow to our collective ego--I support the policy. I'd rather see Miami viewed as the second best public university in one of the country's top university systems than as "maybe" the best in a mediocre system. Who would you rather be: Clear #2 UCLA or "maybe" best in Alabama, Auburn?</p>

<p>Again, my concern isn't with calling Ohio State the flagship because like it or not it's what they've always been. Rather, my concern is with what role will be carved out for Miami.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Each of the Ohio public schools has their own different strengths. Without a doubt, OSU has the strongest engineering and Graduate programs. Miami has the stronger undergraduate experience. UC has (arguably) the best medical and law schools. OU has strong journalism programs.

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<p>One strong journalism program does not make OU Ohio State's peer any more than it makes it Miami's peer. As for UC, I don't think you'll find anyone outside of Clifton--and certainly not any of the rankings--that consider their law or medical schools anywhere near Ohio State's.</p>

<p>I think Miami and Ohio State have equal--but very different--undergraduate experiences. They both attract bright, talented students looking for a different college experience/environment. If Miami's was so superior, we wouldn't even be having this debate.</p>

<p>Miami's business college on the undergraduate level is certainly competitive with Ohio State's, but falls far behind in mba rankings.</p>

<p>I just did an "ohio state" search on CC. It's rather shocking how many of their academic departments come up when people list the top programs--everything from physics to history and political science to the various engineering departments. Yes, I'll admit that most of the Ohio public universities have their "point of pride" programs, but there is no university--even Case--that has the breadth of top 30 programs as Ohio State, particularly in the core arts, sciences and humanities departments. It's not as though designating them the "flagship" is somehow going to create these departments. It's simply recognizing the facts on the ground as they already exist.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Declaring one of these schools as the state's official "flagship" school subordinates all of the other institutions. Ohio's brightest students would give less consideration to the other schools and feel pressured to go to Ohio State--the supposed "best" school.

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<p>Perhaps, but given recent admissions trends isn't Ohio State winning that battle regardless of whether the state calls them an official flagship or not? Again, I think you're primarily concerned with what's best for Miami and how you want your college choice to be perceived rather than looking at it from the perspective of what's the wisest public policy for all Ohioans and the best use of their tax dollars.</p>

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<p>Redskins: In response to your question. Miami did send a rep to my daughter's school. He was very encouraging to them about how well Miami liked students from their school. A few got in Reg Admit 1, most were deferred, unfortunatley. My daughter go in am happy to say. I am not sure if they sent a rep to my son's school. He is out a couple of years by now. The main reasons I see kids from here applying are: 1. great word of mouth from kids from same school who have gone to Miami and are all very happy there and 2. perception that Miami is easier to get into than other schools of the same caliber. (Point 2 may dimininish if kids keep getting deferred.)
Are you from DC area? I couldn't help but notice your name. Miami isn't called the "Redskins" is it? I thought it was Redhawks.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the info, eli. Redskins comes from Miami's former sports nickname. RedHawks is a recent bow to modern sensitivities.</p>

<p>Ohioguy, I read some of your other posts. Given your posts on the Ohio State threads of telling them how bad their school is and taunting them that everybody from your high school is getting in there with a 21 ACT (a statistic impossibility), it would seem that your sole concern in this is that you can't bear that some consider Ohio State to be more "prestigious" than Miami. I understand that you're only a high school senior, and such a narrow viewpoint is a luxury of youth that you should enjoy while you can. When you're actually out of school and paying taxes to fund this higher education system, you might look at things from a somewhat broader perspective of what's best for the state as a whole and not just your chosen institution.</p>

<p>BTW, encouraging kids with 21 ACTs to apply to Ohio State only gives them more applicants to reject, which only helps them put more distance in the USN&WR rankings between themselves and Miami. Be careful of what you wish for; you just might get it. :)</p>

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<p>Looking at our high school's scattergram (2004-2007), we have acceptances at 16, 20, and 21. </p>

<p>I disagree with redskins point about having one strong school makes the entire state system stronger. It makes it weaker.</p>

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<p>16, 20 and 21? To Ohio State? How fast were their times in the 40? I'm sorry, but nobody is getting into Ohio State with those test scores unless there are very considerable extenuating circumstances--i.e. both parents died while in high school, minority student with very good class rank or a 5* football/men's basketball player.</p>

<p>I would say that these changes to Ohio's system might make some individual schools focus on why they were founded rather than chasing after Ohio State. It won't, however, make them weaker, nor will it make the system as a whole weaker. Why is it that the best, most respected systems in the country seem to have clearly delineated flagship universities, yet a move in that regard will somehow make Ohio's system weaker? Please explain your reasoning rather than simply stating it as fact. Isn't this all about ego and the bitter inability on the part of many supporters of other state schools to give Ohio State any credit for anything? The problem with many Miamians is that we view anything that's good for Ohio State as automatically bad for Miami. It's almost as though the thinking goes, "if it has to be Ohio State...well then the state of Ohio will have to make due without a great flagship research university" conveniently ignoring the fact that is why Ohio State was founded in the first place and today no other Ohio public university is positioned to give the state's citizens and economy such an institution.</p>

<p>I never said that the Ohio system should have "1" strong school. I want Miami to continue to be a very strong school, and I think this is the best way to achieve that--even if it makes Ohio State stronger in the process. I don't view this as a zero sum game between Miami and OSU. Sure some of the other public colleges will have to abandon their wasteful dreams of turning themselves into Ohio State, but that's a path that Miami (rightfully) never chose to go down. The problem we have in Ohio is that virtually every state school is free to compete with each other and add on graduate programs at will. It's become a disorganized, redundant system that wastes scarce higher education resources. I'll say it again. Who has it better: the clear secondary university (UCLA) in California's very structured, hierarchical system or any of the SUNY campuses in their decentralized, competitive and underfunded system?</p>

<p>Does it make one ounce of sense that Ohio funds 8 Ph.D programs in history and 7 Ph.D programs in political science, while at the same time being unable to properly fund the undergraduate subsidy, resulting in Ohio ranking 46th in the nation for the affordability of its public universities? BTW, in the last USN&WR only Ohio State's two programs (at 26th and 13th) ranked in the top 100 history or p.s. doctoral programs. </p>

<p>Just know that, if you're an Ohio resident, your paying for OU, Akron, UT and all the rest constantly adding on unnecessary, redundant doctoral programs with little or no national stature so that their presidents and administrators can chase after Ohio State.</p>

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<p>^^^Redskins4ever</p>

<p>You stated:
---"The state systems around the country that are generally the most respected are the ones that have a clearly delineated hierarchy: Texas, Michigan, Wisconsin and most of all California."
---"Who has it better: the clear secondary university (UCLA) in California's very structured, hierarchical system or any of the SUNY campuses in their decentralized, competitive and underfunded system?"</p>

<p>Your examples are selective. Consider Virginia. They have, in my opinion, the strongest public university system in the nation. They have 2 elite schools and an extremely strong engineering-focused institution. They don't have an official "flagship" university. Each school has different strengths, catering to different types of students. I don't think their university system has suffered.</p>

<p>There are also plenty of weak systems with official "flagship" schools. It all depends on which examples you choose to mention. </p>

<p>You also stated:
---"16, 20 and 21? To Ohio State? How fast were their times in the 40? I'm sorry, but nobody is getting into Ohio State with those test scores unless there are very considerable extenuating circumstances--i.e. both parents died while in high school, minority student with very good class rank or a 5* football/men's basketball player."
---Getting into OSU with a 21 is a "statistic impossibility"</p>

<p>At my Ohio public school, two students have applied with a 21 and decent (but not great) GPAs. Both have already been admitted. Ohio State is a very good school, but it isn't nearly as selective as everyone makes it out to be. They do have a lower admittance rate than Miami, but it seems as if every high school student in the state applies there. In my opinion, Miami applicants are more self-selecting. I don't have statistics on hand, but I would imagine that the quality of the applicant pool isn't that incredibly different.</p>

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<p>As for the Virginia comparison, I think it's very good one, and one Ohio should seriously consider. Although Ohio would fall along the lines of a 1 flagship state similar to Wisconsin or Illinois in that the liberal arts and sciences, law, medicine functions are on the same campus as the engineering/ag land grant functions.</p>

<p>What I'd love to see in Ohio is a very structured system that, while viewing Ohio State as the UVA, views Miami as the William & Mary--a selective, prestigious undergraduate focused university that complements the comprehensive research flagship. At the same time, it relieves both universities of the pressures and competitive waste of resources from the other 11 universities trying to be more than they should.</p>

<p>I never said that getting into Ohio State with a 21 was a statistic impossibility. I said to have one school putting numbers of students in there with a 21 would be. The overall statistics make it if not an impossibility highly, highly unlikely. Perhaps those two students had something very unique that caught the eye of OSU admissions because when average white, suburban Ohio kids with a 25 are getting rejected, I don't know how they're getting in with a 21.</p>

<p>As for the overall comparisons of Miami and Ohio State, I just went and looked at each of their common data sets for last year. It's more than just a lower acceptance rate in Ohio State's favor:</p>

<p>Acceptance Rate: Miami 78%/OSU 52%</p>

<p>Top Tenth of High School Class: Miami 35%/OSU 57%
Top Quarter of High SChool Class: Miami 72%/OSU 91%</p>

<p>Middle 50% Range on ACT Composite: Miami 24-28/OSU 26-30
Percent Scoring 30+: Miami 15%/OSU 27%
Percent Scoring 23 or Lower: Miami 21%/OSU 9%</p>

<p>Look, I want Miami to be as selective and prestigious as it can be while keeping its traditional undergraduate focus. That's what's important not a ****ing match with Ohio State over who has the more selective freshmen classes. As for Ohio State becoming very selective, I think that's a very, very good thing for the entire state of Ohio. Why shouldn't our taxpayers have and our economy benefit from a flagship research university on the level of UVA or Wisconsin or Texas? And if we consider that a good thing for the state of Ohio, who is going to fulfill that role? Akron? Bowling Green? No; there's only one logical public university to give us that institution, and if the state formally recognizing it as such pushes that along, then I'm all for it.</p>

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<p><a href="%5Burl=%5D#13%5B/url%5D">quote</a>...Why is it that the best, most respected systems in the country seem to have clearly delineated flagship universities, yet a move in that regard will somehow make Ohio's system weaker?...</p>

<p>...Does it make one ounce of sense that Ohio funds 8 Ph.D programs in history and 7 Ph.D programs in political science, while at the same time being unable to properly fund the undergraduate subsidy, resulting in Ohio ranking 46th in the nation for the affordability of its public universities?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>An analysis of one of the " best, most respected systems in the country"['s] graduate degree programs (University</a> of California) results in the following:</p>

<p>447 Unique graduate programs
152 (34%) duplicated Master and PhD programs throughout the UC system
120 (26%) duplicated PhD programs throughout the UC system
32 (7%) duplicated PhD programs with a minimum of 4 duplications throughout the UC system
10 (2%) dupicated PhD programs with a minimum of 8 duplications throughout the UC system</p>

<p>Ironically, the two programs cited ("8 Ph.D programs in history and 7 Ph.D programs in political science") as problematic duplications in Ohio's system are exactly the level of duplication one finds in the California system. (see below)</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the Ohio</a> University System doesn't publish its graduate programs in an easily analyzed format like the UC system. Hopefully we'll know more when the University</a> System of Ohio 10 year Strategic Plan is released in late March.</p>

<p>Here are the 32 programs with 4 or more duplicated PhD programs in the California system:</p>

<p>Sociology (9)
Anthropology (8)
Chemistry (8)
Computer Science (8)
Economics (8)
History (8)
Mathematics (8)
Philosophy (8)
Physics (8)
Psychology (8)
Neuroscience(s) (7)
Political Science (7)
Comparative Literature (6)
Biochemistry /Molecular Biology (6)
Chemical Engineering (6)
English (6)
Linguistics (6)
Music (5)
Art History/History of Art (5)
French/ French Literature (5)
Biophysics (5)
Classics (5)
Electrical Engineering (5)
Materials Science & Engineering (5)
Mechanical Engineering (5)
Medicine (5)
Education (4)
Astronomy/Astrophysics (4)
Biology (4)
Electrical & Computer Engineering (4)
Geography (4)
Geology/Geological Sciences (see Earth Sciences) (4)</p>

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<p>Nobody is saying that Ohio State should be the only public university in Ohio to offer doctoral programs (which was the case mandated by Ohio law prior to the late 1950s), but there needs to be some rational structure imposed on the system. And yes, that probably means that some unnecessary, lowly regarded programs should be either eliminated or merged. Ohio simply can't afford to let every public university in the state chase the brass ring when we can't adequately fund undergraduate education. Also, there is a lot of gray area for this system to operate in between the two extremes of letting Ohio State have everything and having a completely irrational, competitive and unstructured system. </p>

<p>Yes, California's UC campuses offer 8 and 7 doctoral programs in history and political science. That means that less than 25% of California's public four year universities offer such programs in a state of almost three times the population and economic output. In Ohio, almost 3/4 of the state's four year universities offer such programs. So if one really wants to use California as a model of how many doctoral history and poly sci programs Ohio should offer and base it on some matrix of California's population, economy, state budget and total number of public four year universities, one could reasonably conclude that Ohio should offer 2-3 such program--not 7-8. I would also wager that those programs at the UC campuses beyond Berkeley and UCLA have far higher national stature than one finds in those programs at Ohio's non-OSU campuses.</p>

<p>It should also be noted when looking at the California system that when Ohio was removing those legal limitations on state universities offering doctoral programs or conducting basic research (late 50s-early 60s), California was instituting precisely the opposite: a system where 3/4 of the state's four year universities (the entire Cal State system) are legally barred from offering any doctoral programs. In the subsequent forty years what has each system produced for its state's citizens, taxpayers and economy. California has the gold system of public university systems with two of the top 5 public universities in the country, an immense engine for economic growth and tuition levels substantially below the national average. Ohio has produced a redundant overpriced mess with its two top campuses ranked 19th and 27th among American public universities and some of the highest tuition levels in the country. In state tuition at Berkeley is cheaper than in state tuition at Bowling Green!</p>

<p>Over forty years later, don't you think it's at long last time to at least think about a change in direction in how Ohio operates its higher education system?</p>

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<p>I'm actually very glad that you brought up the number of doctoral programs at UC campuses, for it proves my point exactly: that, as it's developed over the last fifty years, Ohio's system of public higher education is grossly redundant, inefficient and stretched far too thin for either its resource or population base to support.</p>

<p>Ohio and California fund the same number of doctoral programs in history (8) and political science (7).</p>

<p>California has 3 times the number of public four year universities as Ohio
California has slightly over 3 times the population of Ohio
....in fact one could argue, using California as a model that Ohio has too many public four year colleges period--1 for every 850K OH residents as opposed to 1 for every 1.1 million residents in California.
California has slightly over 4 times the economy of California
California has 7 times the state budget of Ohio
California has 8 times the higher education budget of Ohio</p>

<p>Yet...Ohio supports the same number of doctoral programs in history and political science in its public universities as does California. I'm sure that were one to go down the remainder of your list of UC doctoral programs, one would find a large number of similar cases where Ohio is attempting to fund the same number of doctoral programs as California for no possible logical reason other than the institutional egos of the various Ohio public colleges.</p>

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<p>And we should believe all your statistics, while you dismiss what all of us are saying!??</p>

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<p>A review of the History and PoliSci PhD programs in the University</a> System of Ohio results in: </p>

<p>History PhD programs: 8
PoliSci PhD programs: 4</p>

<p>Details:</p>

<p>University of Akron, Akron, OH (Hist)
Bowling Green State University, Bowling Green, OH (Hist)
University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati, OH (Hist, PoliSci)
Kent State University, Kent, OH (Hist, PoliSci)
Miami University, Oxford, OH (Hist, PoliSci)
The Ohio State University, Columbus, OH (Hist, PoliSci)
Ohio University, Athens, OH (Hist)
University of Toledo, Toledo, OH (Hist)</p>

<p>It will be interesting to read the recommendations from the University</a> System of Ohio 10 year Strategic Plan to see what are the actual graduate needs for the Ohio system and the cost effectiveness (or waste) that the current structure actually has.</p>