Michigan (Ross BBA Undergrad) vs NYU (Stern Undergrad)

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
21

<p>“More like half from what I see. Quite a number of lower echelon Ross kids accept ops/treasury/credit risk/product control type of positions at BBs.”</p>

<p>I guess we’ll have to disagree based on our personal observations. </p>

<p>“lower tier Ross kids would gladly accept a backoffice BB role (still better paid than your typical F500 and non-MBB consulting gigs).”</p>

<p>Perhaps in terms of gross salary, but not in terms of salary/hour. Many would rather earn less working 40 hours per week rather than earn IB salaries working 80 hours per week, to say nothing of the questionable ethical values and loose morals endemic to the financial services industry.</p>

22

<p>Alex, Ross expanded their class sizes from 400 to 500 a couple years back.</p>

23

<p>According to the 2013 Ross report, the BBA class had 404 graduates. Even if Ross has 500 students per class, it is still smaller than Stern, which has over 600 students per class…and it is less Finance centric than Stern.</p>

24

<p>Yes, you’ll never make it against all of those people in investment banking “for the love of it” lol</p>

25

<p>If those numbers are including all division at the BBs then that is actually not as good as I initially thought. I actually thought Ross placed much better that. The year before last year at one of Morgan Stanley’s Stern events, they said Stern sent 17 to Morgan Stanley firmwide which is actually not that much compared to the other firms. Credit Suisse, Goldman, JP Morgan, & Barclays all got around the same or more than that from Stern firmwide. </p>

<p>@bearcats is definitely right about more options for lower-tier stern students as they will have a ton opportunities at boutiques. There are even people who land a well desired internship during the school year as a sophomore and continuing working there so that by graduation they know the work and the place like the back of their hand and its only natural that they go back for full time. - This happens a lot for boutique investment banks as well as for some well known top hedge funds too. </p>

26

<p>qwertyzxc, the numbers are actually pretty impressive. Not many programs with a class of 400 will place 30 graduates into Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley. Wharton does a better job, but most other top undergraduate business programs do not. For example, McIntire (UVa) placed 14 of its grads into those three Banks. McDonough (Georgetown) placed 16. So Michigan places as many of its grads into the top 3 IBanks as UVa and Georgetown combined. That’s not bad.</p>

27

<p>Those numbers are not bad relatively, but you also have to consider that not all of those placements may be in divisions that people want to be in - some students may take middle-office roles or even front-office roles they didn’t want b/c they couldn’t land the position they were initially vying for. I had always thought Ross placed better than 6 at MS, 3 at Citi, & 8 at GS given its reputation. </p>

28

<p>Perhaps if Stern would list a detailed placement report qwertyzxc, you would be more impressed with Ross. I wonder why Stern refuses to do it? Perhaps Stern isn’t as good as you think?</p>

29

<p>Stern’s placement & quality of students is better than I gave it credit for before coming here. If you want the numbers go ahead and check LinkedIN for yourself. Stern’s strength comes from the fact that alumni are always in and out of Stern during the year coming back to educate, talk to us, give advice while on their work day. Club leaders send out a couple of emails and all of a sudden we have Global Heads and Managing Directors coming to speak to us. Companies come many many times a semester because it is so easy for them to set up and plan event to Stern. Sophomores here pull down offers that seniors at other target schools are dreaming of. It all comes down to location and the ability to network - Networking is kind in finance, and that’s the biggest advantage the Stern has and that is why it’s placement is unreal. </p>

30

<p>qwertyzxc, I am sure Stern’s numbers are impressive. I would not expect any less. It is an elite Business program (certainly on par with Ross), but more importantly, it is huge compared to Ross. Ross has 40,000 living alums (MBA and BBA combined), compared to Stern’s 90,000. Also, Michigan is not nearly as Wall Street-centric as Stern. Given its location and image, Stern is a magnet for Wall Street types. </p>

<p>But that was my point above. Stern is huge and virtually all of its students are elbowing and clawing their way through a sea of competitive students to get a job in an IBank. Ross is smaller, and its graduates are far less focused on IBanking. When you have 400 or 500 gifted and uber competitive graduates vying for Wall Street jobs compared to 100 or 150, you are facing completely different realities and odds.</p>

31

<p>@Alexandre @qwertyzxc is the competition for jobs in many companies limited by a “capped” number or range of students from each university? I heard the competition is more general among everyone, rather than just against classmates… </p>

<ol>
<li>@qwertyzxc your linked in idea was very eye opening. After checking LinkedIn, I see that Stern definitely places extremely well. It has the best representation in every top bank, and,</li>
</ol>

<p>If one searches for investment banking analyst titles (analysts generally exclude Grad School student results), USA Location, currently working, the results for the Top 10 Investment Banking Companies are:</p>

<p>MORGAN STANLEY
College: # of Students Average Undergrad Class Size for Senior Class</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard: 16 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 1700 for every major possible</li>
<li>Wharton: 15 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 600-650</li>
<li>Stern: 12 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 550-600</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 10 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 1100 for every major possible</li>
<li>Chicago: 11 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 1500</li>
<li>Ross: 10 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 400 according to their website</li>
<li>Yale: 9 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 1350 for every major possible</li>
<li>Duke: 9 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 1700 for every major possible</li>
<li>MIT Sloan: 6 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 100 (its a very small program)
10.Cornell 5 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 3500 for every possible major
11.Brown: 3 Current, Undergraduate Class Size: About 1600 for every possible major</li>
</ol>

<p>GOLDMAN SACHS:</p>

<ol>
<li>Wharton: 22<br></li>
<li>Harvard: 20</li>
<li>Stern: 13 </li>
<li>Ross: 12</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 11</li>
<li>Duke: 10</li>
<li>Yale: 9</li>
<li>Princeton: 6</li>
<li>Cornell: 6</li>
<li>Brown: 5</li>
<li>MIT Sloan: 1</li>
<li>Chicago: 1</li>
</ol>

<p>CITI</p>

<ol>
<li>Wharton 16</li>
<li>Stern: 13</li>
<li>Cornell: 12</li>
<li>Princeton: 8</li>
<li>Ross: 6</li>
<li>Harvard: 5</li>
<li>Brown: 4</li>
<li>Yale: 4</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 2</li>
<li>Chicago: 2</li>
<li>Duke: 2</li>
<li>MIT: 1</li>
</ol>

<p>BANK OF AMERICA Merill Lynch</p>

<ol>
<li>Dartmouth: 12</li>
<li>Stern: 8</li>
<li>Duke: 8</li>
<li>Cornell: 6</li>
<li>Princeton: 5</li>
<li>Harvard: 5</li>
<li>Wharton: 3</li>
<li>Brown: 2</li>
<li>MIT: 2</li>
<li>Ross: 1</li>
<li>Yale: 0</li>
<li>Chicago: 0</li>
</ol>

<p>DEUTSCHE BANK</p>

<ol>
<li>Duke: 11 </li>
<li>Cornell: 7</li>
<li>Harvard: 6</li>
<li>Ross: 5</li>
<li>Yale: 4 </li>
<li>Stern: 3</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 3</li>
<li>MIT: 2</li>
<li>Princeton: 1
9.Wharton: 1
9.Chicago: 1
12.Brown: 0</li>
</ol>

<p>CREDIT SUISSE</p>

<ol>
<li>Wharton: 15</li>
<li>Harvard: 8</li>
<li>Stern:8</li>
<li>Yale: 7</li>
<li>Chicago: 7</li>
<li>Cornell: 5</li>
<li>Ross: 4</li>
<li>Princeton: 3</li>
<li>Brown: 3</li>
<li>Duke: 3</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 1</li>
<li>MIT: 0</li>
</ol>

<p>BARCLAYS CAPITAL</p>

<ol>
<li>Stern: 15</li>
<li>Duke: 9</li>
<li>Wharton: 6</li>
<li>Cornell: 6</li>
<li>Harvard: 5</li>
<li>Princeton: 5</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 5</li>
<li>Yale: 5</li>
<li>Brown: 4</li>
<li>Ross: 3
11.Chicago: 0</li>
<li>MIT: 0</li>
</ol>

<p>UBS (I guess they’re not big on undergrads or analysts unless you’re from Harvard)</p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard: 6</li>
<li>Duke: 2</li>
<li>Stern:2</li>
<li>Wharton :1</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 1</li>
<li>Cornell: 1</li>
<li>Ross: 1</li>
<li>MIT: 1</li>
<li>Princeton: 0</li>
<li>Brown: 0</li>
<li>Yale: 0</li>
<li>Chicago: 0</li>
</ol>

<p>WELLS FARGO</p>

<ol>
<li>Stern: 14</li>
<li>Duke: 10</li>
<li>Wharton: 9</li>
<li>Ross: 7</li>
<li>Harvard: 6</li>
<li>Princeton: 5 </li>
<li>Yale: 5</li>
<li>Dartmouth: 3</li>
<li>Chicago: 3</li>
<li>Cornell: 3</li>
<li>Brown: 2</li>
<li>MIT: 0</li>
</ol>

<p>HSBC (Any current position, since there are no analysts available on LinkedIN)</p>

<ol>
<li>Stern: 77</li>
<li>Cornell: 42</li>
<li>Wharton: 33</li>
<li>Harvard: 31</li>
<li>Duke: 16</li>
<li>Yale: 12</li>
<li>Dartmouth:10</li>
<li>Brown: 7</li>
<li>MIT: 6</li>
<li>Princeton: 4
Chicago: Information not available
Ross: Information not available</li>
</ol>

<p>JPMorgan Chase: Search for yourselves for this one, I’m having difficulty finding current IB analysts</p>

<p>Link:</p>

<p><a href=“http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/vsearch/p?title=Investment%20Banking%20Analyst&company=JPMorgan%20Chase&openAdvancedForm=true&titleScope=C&companyScope=C&locationType=I&countryCode=us&rsid=3231056401392184517534&orig=MDYS”>http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/vsearch/p?title=Investment%20Banking%20Analyst&company=JPMorgan%20Chase&openAdvancedForm=true&titleScope=C&companyScope=C&locationType=I&countryCode=us&rsid=3231056401392184517534&orig=MDYS&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Obviously, not everyone has a LinkedIN account, so I know this data isn’t perfect, but generally, it seems that the Wharton, Harvard, Stern, and Duke have the most frequently occurring and most represented undergraduate students in the Top 10 Highest Paying IB firms… I guess its difficult to determine the exact order since were not sure how many students from each school pursues finance/business/econ specifically, but there is no doubt that Stern >Ross, and on par with those other schools mentioned. </p>

<p>Of course, one can argue that Stern is larger in size and puts more focus on finance, but Wharton’s undergraduate class is also very focused on finance and even larger than Stern’s, yet both are about on the same level in placement here… </p>

32

<p>PS, I am a high school senior who plans to major in business/finance, and I applied to every school mentioned in that post </p>

33

<p>Edit:</p>

<p>J.P. Morgan information found: the number of current IB undergrads on LinkedIN are:</p>

<p>1.Cornell:14
1.Stern: 14
3.Chicago:12
4.Harvard:11
5.Yale:9
5.Princeton:9
7.Wharton: 7
8.Brown:6
9.Sloan:5
10.Ross:5
11.Dartmouth:4
11.Duke:4</p>

34

<p>linkedin?? good source…</p>

35

<p>Scale this to include all of the many boutiques & MMs that have relationships to Stern that take a couple of Stern students every year and recruit at very few schools and you get sense of why Stern is such a banking/finance powerhouse. </p>

36

<p>@pHyRe7 are you being sarcastic or something… ? </p>

37

<p>qwertyzxc any idea how boutiques are different from bb firms (other than the amount of money invested/available and the size of hte company). Like shorter hours? Lower salary? More bonus oriented? etc… </p>

38

<p>Depends on what boutiques/MMs we are talking about. The top boutiques will have higher salary, hours are relatively same in the industry, leaner deal teams (more access to management), extremely high finance prestige but low/mediocre lay prestige, and virtually same if not better exit opportunities. Often times at the BBs one division will screw up bonuses for other divisions apparently (don’t know too much about this) but that is less of an issue at top boutiques. </p>

<p>When you start going down the list of the boutiques into the generally unknown ones - some will be good, some bad. Hours will be same, maybe less if less deal flow and pay may be around the same to maybe slightly less than BB firms but usually boutiques pay a lot more than BBs, The difference is the exit opps from the unknown boutiques - you won’t have a chance of entering the elite PE, HF firms. </p>

<p>Also exiting out of finance all together will be harder from boutiques than from BBs</p>

39

<p>HaroldSawyer, Linkedin is not reliable. Michigan students are notorious at not joining sites such as Linkedin. Of the dozens of fellow alums, fewer than 10% of them are on Linkedin. Alums of my other alma matter, Cornell, are far more prone to join sites such as Linkedin. Literally 100% of my Cornell connections are on Linkedin. </p>

<p>Anyway, Ross does pretty well considering the size of the program and the lack of interest in IBanking among its students. I added the total of your numbers above, and this is what I got:</p>

<p>Goldman Sachs + JP Morgan + Morgan Stanley</p>

<p>Harvard 47
Wharton 44
Stern 39
Ross 27
Yale 27
Cornell 25
Dartmouth 25
Chicago 24
Duke 24
Brown 14
Sloan 12</p>

<p>Surprisingly, when you factor in size of program, Ross is #1 among the Big 3 IBanks. Even more impressive when you consider that programs like Stern and Wharton, and universities like Cornell, Duke and Harvard will have 2-3 times more applicants for IBanking jobs than Ross. </p>

<p>The remaining IBanks (not including HSBC or Well Fargo):</p>

<p>Stern 49
Wharton 42
Cornell 37
Duke 35
Dartmouth 24
Princeton 22
Ross 20
Yale 20
Brown 11
Chicago 10
Sloan 6</p>

<p>But like I said, the only valid source is either one published by the University or by the company. Linkedin is not reliable, even if you extrapolate. </p>

<p>And for the record, no program comes close to Wharton. The only reason why Stern may place almost as many grads into IBanks as Wharton is because Wharton has many students who opt for careers in Management Consulting. Last year alone, Wharton placed a whopping 40 grads into Bain, BCG and McKinsey. The year before, Wharton placed 50. When you add the 60 or so that are placed into Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan annually, you are looking at 100+ placed into the top 3 IBanks and the top 3 MC firms. Nobody comes close…other than Harvard.</p>

40

<p>I tried to use linked in because I thought people joined the site to network on their own will, not because of school-related customs; I thought the probability that individuals have LinkedIn should be somewhat constant, considering that I selected from 11 companies, 12 schools, and thousands of people in my sample. Generally, if you try to reason things out, the numbers seem to make sense anyways. In IB, Harvard and Wharton were on top, Stern seemed a bit under but nevertheless very close. Ross had slightly lower numbers, but is probably better represented proportionally compared to the others, but maybe the same goes for duke and chicago and Ivys. </p>

<p>I guess you cant really go wrong with any of these schools for IB lol they all seem to be pretty highly targeted. </p>