<p>weedit, I mostly agree with what you're saying, but i think you're overestimating how many people apply to both. I don't think it's true that top students "almost always" apply to both. U-M has far more application overlap with Northwestern. I suspect Notre Dame has special appeal with some students (certainly Catholics!) but not so much with others, just as Purdue is huge among those with engineering interests but less so with other top students in the Midwest. (Incidentally, U-M overlaps more with Purdue than with Notre Dame).</p>
<p>Weedit-</p>
<p>I think your generalizations are grossly exaggerated. My older brother attends Michigan (and he is an extremely happy senior there). However, he only goes to Michigan because he was rejected from Notre Dame. At my very large, competitve suburban chicago school I know of several students who applied to Umich and ND EA (including me!). No one who was accepted to ND was rejected from Umich, but many who got rejected from ND were accepted to Umich. I would generally say that probably the top 25% of students at Mich are similar to the average students at Notre Dame. When it comes to student quality, Notre Dame is much better than Michigan. Also, I've seen a lot of comparing between ND's SAT and Mich's SAT scores. However, Most students submit the ACT for these schools because they both draw the majority of their students from the midwest.</p>
<p>Michigan's range: 26-30
Notre Dame's range: 31-34</p>
<p>Now that difference is stunning!</p>
<p>Actually Torn, 60% of Michigan students are accepted on the strength of their SATs, even if the majority of them take their ACTs. The range 26-30 for the ACT are Michigan is reflective of the 40% of students who only take the ACT. In almost 100% of the cases, those students are in-staters who will only apply to Michigan and MSU. They usually have 3.9+ unweighed GPAs and are ranked in the top 5% of their class. They know they are pretty much a shoe-in at Michigan if they have an ACT score of 28 or thereabout. So don't let that ACT score fool you. For the SAT, Michigan's mid 50% this year was 1220-1420 and it was 1200-1410 last year. The Notre Dame norm is not much higher. But that does not matter. It is proven that the SAT/ACT measure nothing. Many top universities, Michigan included, no longer focus on standardized tests.</p>
<p>Obviously, your high school is one example, but it is not the rule. I knew many people who were accepted at Notre Dame and rejected by Michigan. MANY. And they were Michigan residents. Michigan is numbers driven. Notre Dame, like most small private universities, is very random. </p>
<p>At any rate, I do not see how Notre Dame can compare to Michigan. Michigan has 40+ departments ranked in the top 10-15 nationally. Notre Dame has 1 or 2 such departments. Average salaries of Michigan grads are higher, employment rates of Michigan grads are higher and acceptance rates into top graduate programs for Michigan students are higher. Average GPAs and class ranks of Michigan students are actually higher than Notre Dame students and both schools attract applicants from the same schools. You can have the higher SAT/ACT scores.</p>
<p>"The range 26-30 for the ACT are Michigan is reflective of the 40% of students who only take the ACT. In almost 100% of the cases, those students are in-staters who will only apply to Michigan and MSU"</p>
<p>I would love to see proof of the 100% claim...</p>
<p>"Obviously, your high school is one example, but it is not the rule"</p>
<p>I'm actually basing it off of 3 high schools. My public one, and two local catholic schools that I have many friends at. Even the kids with the advantage of going to a catholic school have a much easier time of getting into Michigan than ND.</p>
<p>I really struggle to see how anyone can even construe Michigan to be a better University than Notre Dame. The student body at ND is much better, and its prestige is way higher, especially in the midwest. </p>
<p>You also state that the Average GPA's and class ranks are higher to Umich students. You are probably right. However, it is important to note that the majority of Michigan students come from public schools where it is easier to be ranked high and have a great GPA. Notre Dame students are more likely to come from parochial schools which usually are much more competitive.</p>
<p>Michigan is a great school, and its a great safety for places like ND. Heck! It was my safety school!</p>
<p>"I really struggle to see how anyone can even construe Michigan to be a better University than Notre Dame. The student body at ND is much better, and its prestige is way higher, especially in the midwest." </p>
<p>First of all, most Notre Dame students, like most Michigan students, are the product of public high school education. Secondly, if Notre Dame students were so much better than Michigan students, why is it that Michigan students are more successful? They get better paying jobs and better graduate school placement.</p>
<p>I really don't get it. I don't see us talking trash on the Notre Dame forum. I personally did not want to go into this, but Notre Dame cannot hold a candle to Michigan. It is a good university. No more, no less. And as far as prestige goes, you should perhaps go speak to the deans of universities who consistantly give Michigan far higher marks than Notre Dame, or to corporate recruiters who pay Michigan graduates more than Notre Dame graduates or perhaps to graduate school adcoms who accept Michigan students more readily than Notre Dame students.</p>
<p>Can you please list the departments or programs at Notre Dame that are ranked ahead of Michigan? I will list a few at programs at Michigan that are ranked ahead...WAY ahead than at Notre Dame.</p>
<p>Anthropology
Michigan: #1
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Arabic
Michigan: #2
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Architecture
Michigan: #11
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Asian & Oriental Studies
Michigan: #7
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Astronomy
Michigan: #10
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Bacteriology & Microbiology
Michigan: #9
Notre Dame: #20 (finally!!!)</p>
<p>Biology
Michigan: #14
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Business
Michigan: #3
Notre Dame: #20</p>
<p>Chemistry
Michigan: #21
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Chinese
Michigan: #9
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Classics
Michigan: #5
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Computer Science
Michigan: #14
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Economics
Michigan: #11
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Engineering
Michigan: #7
Notre Dame: #39</p>
<p>English
Michigan: #11
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>French
Michigan: #7
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Geology
Michigan: #5
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>History
Michigan: #5
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Italian
Michigan: #8
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Japanese
Michigan#7
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Latin
Michigan: #7
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Mathematics
Michigan: #8
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Music
Michigan: #4
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Near & Middle Eastern Studies
Michigan: #8
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Nursing
Michigan: #3
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Philosophy:
Michigan: #4
Notre Dame: #14</p>
<p>Physics
Michigan: #13
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Political Science
Michigan: #2
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Public Health
Michigan: #5
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Psychology
Michigan: #2
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Russian
Michigan: #5
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Russian & Slavic Studies
Michigan: #5
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Scandinavian Languages
Michigan: #6
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Social Work
Michigan: #1
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Sociology
Michigan: #3
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Spanish
Michigan: #6
Notre Dame: Unranked</p>
<p>Furthermore, Michigan has better success placing students in top Law, Medical and Business schools than Notre Dame...proportionately speaking of course.</p>
<p>Maybe in your dream world, Notre Dame is better than Michigan. In the World of people who work in the fields mentioned above, Michigan is actually superior to Notre Dame.</p>
<p>Every top executive I've spoken to, and thats quite a few, has told me hands down that Notre Dame will open more doors. Michigan may have higher ranked programs, but Notre Dame will serve one better in the long run...</p>
<p>Hey Alexandre, you forgot one.</p>
<p>Overall
Michigan: #22
Notre Dame: #18</p>
<p>I guess you didn't see it...</p>
<p>And I don't know where you got your stats.</p>
<pre><code> Notre Dame / Michigan
</code></pre>
<p>:: Average starting salary $33,290 $26,187</p>
<p>:: Average current salary $73,103 $39,490</p>
<p>:: Percent that continued beyond undergraduate school 58% 55%</p>
<p>:: Amount that currently own a home 40% 13%</p>
<p>:: Percent of grads worried about debt 35% 54%
<a href="http://www.campusdirt.com%5B/url%5D">www.campusdirt.com</a></p>
<p>Torn,
I'm impressed that you've spoken to quite a few top executives (I presume these are Fortune 500's)...while you are still in high school. Well, as one who's been around engineering and the business world for years, I can tell you that your statement is WRONG. Notre Dame grads do not have any advantage over Michigan in the job market.</p>
<p>If you need proof, here's one:
<a href="http://www.businesswire.com/webbox/bw.092104/242656018.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.businesswire.com/webbox/bw.092104/242656018.htm</a>
In this year's WSJ/Harris Interactive Top MBA ranking (according to leading corporate recruiters), Michigan is #1 in national ranking. The poll is based on
"recruiters' perceptions of the schools and students and its mass appeal score--the number of recruiters attracted by a school. A revised and expanded part of the ranking formula is "supportive behavior," defined as the recruiters' intention to return to a particular school and the likelihood of making job offers to its graduates in the next two years".</p>
<p>And I don't see Notre Dame anywhere on either the national or regional ranks.</p>
<p>Btw, Michigan's peer assessment score is 4.6, compared to Notre Dame's 3.9. Peer assessment reflects the opinions of Deans and department heads in academia...so it's relevant if you are thinking graduate school. To quote your own words, "now that difference is stunning".</p>
<p>project86ist,
I hope you don't do your job search based on CampusDirt...</p>
<p>I'd like proof that UM alumni have higher salaries than ND students, because I strongly feel that it is the opposite. ND alumni are extremely aggressive when it comes to helping out their own, from what I've heard. Like someone previously said, ND doesn't suffer from the same disease that plagues UM, which is accepting people that wouldn't otherwise make it in, due to their state citizenship. I don't think the bottom 25% student body of UM is spectacular, and Alexandre has even admitted that. </p>
<p>Further, I'd prefer if Alexandre cited sources for her information, and let us all give it a look. From the Gourman website, I read that it ranked departments separately, and also gave state universities an edge. Is this where your rankings come from?</p>
<p>* Notre Dame cannot hold a candle to Michigan.*</p>
<p>You're living in a fantasy world.</p>
<p>* It is proven that the SAT/ACT measure nothing*</p>
<p>People look to you for advice? You're really in a downward spiral, here. ;)</p>
<p>PS. I never intended for this to become a mud-slinging contest. I personally have done my best to keep any insults out of my posts, but I'd rather insult someone than let them lead a slanted argument, smearing an entire university when prospective students come here seeking advice.</p>
<p>Uh I think Alexandre is a guy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
weedit, I mostly agree with what you're saying, but i think you're overestimating how many people apply to both. I don't think it's true that top students "almost always" apply to both. U-M has far more application overlap with Northwestern. I suspect Notre Dame has special appeal with some students (certainly Catholics!) but not so much with others, just as Purdue is huge among those with engineering interests but less so with other top students in the Midwest. (Incidentally, U-M overlaps more with Purdue than with Notre Dame).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, thats probably an oversimplification, but you know what I mean. Niether are Harvard. Niether are getting 20k top apps. I'd say that the top 1.5k students (top quartile) at Michigan are better than the overall ND student body, but, being a different type of school, you have the inner-quartiles that I think would be roughly equal and the bottom quartile that I think would be lower. It's a huge university. It offers different things. </p>
<p>Want a fierce school spirit, a small campus, a ruralish campus, conservative ideas, and zealous alumni connections ND is for you.</p>
<p>If you want an urban/liberal campus and a huge university, Michigan is for you.</p>
<p>ND is the only other school I considered attending, but I did my research before I went to Mich. They're a much bigger school. Ergo they have more highly regarded professors and more top rated departments and are held in higher esteem in acadmia. Because I want to go to law school, Michigan was for me.</p>
<p>PROJECT, I have provided several links to actual starting salaries above. Everything from Engineering to Business (both undergrad) to Law and MBAs. In every case, Michigan was about 10% higher. Also, a higher percentage of Business students found jobs upon graduation according to BusinessWeek and the USNWR. </p>
<p>As for my stats, I got them for the Michigan website. Michigan undergraduate engineers start at roughly $50,000/year. Michigan undergraduate Business majors start at roughly $48,000 (not including signing bonuses or guaranteed annual bonuses which add up, on average, to $15,000). That's already 20% of the student Body. Another 20% go straight to Law School and Medical School, many of them to top 25 programs. And we haven't even discussed Michigan's graduate programs. I would not place too much faith on CAMPUSDIRT. </p>
<p>TERMINATOR, there are no links to the Gourman Report if that's what you mean. But his book is availlable at most large Borders or Barnes and Nobles bookstore. He ranks universities by individual subjects and he also ranks them according to how good they are at placing students into Law and Medical school. Finally, he ranks the strength of Alumni assosiciations, University administrations, Library systems, Curriculae, Faculties etc... Then he takes all of those variables and he comes up with a final ranking. In it, Michigan is #3 at the undergraduate level. You can find it in any large bookstore. </p>
<p>Like I said before, I find his rankings interesting but one-dimentional. He definitely favors research universities to LACs, but that he favors State universities to Private universities is just one point of view. Others would say that he actually gives state school a fair rating and that it is other rankings that are biased AGAINST state universities. One thing is certain, his rankings are more accurate than the USNWR, whose only redeeming quality is the Peer Assessment score. I have said it before and I will say it again, rankings do not work. Ratings do. That is why I like Fiske best of all. </p>
<p>I already provided several links that demonstrate that Michigan students get better paying jobs upon graduation. The difference is usually significant. And since Notre Dame does not have a Medical school or a school of Dentistry, the numbers could be even more in favor of Michigan. I personally agree that the Notre Dame network is strong. As strong as Michigan's. But its ties to industry and academe are not quite as strong as Michigan's.</p>
<p>And I did not "smear" Notre Dame or mislead anyone. I said from the begining and continue to maintain that Notre Dame is a fine university and that one can get the best education there. Saying that Michigan is a better overall university is not a smear...it is a fact. And I do not mislead. If you read my posts on the forum, I often defend Michigan from those who put it down and I will recommend Michigan, but I am not pushy nor do I mislead.</p>
<p>Finally, I was never popular with the students on this forum. Most kids on this forum are taken by the Ivy League and other similar schools like Stanford, MIT, Duke and Johns Hopkins. Most of them think I am crazy anyway! But I do not mind. I am not here to win popularity contests. I am here to answer questions which I hope will give the poster one piece of the puzzle.</p>
<p>Not yet discussed is the inbred nature of the ND student body. Although they no longer advertise it in their admissions website, ND targets 25% of the incoming class to consist of legacies. They do acknowledge that legacies represent 23% of the overall student body (the decline no doubt reflecting the higher attrition rate of the less qualified legacy admissions). The magnitude of this figure is almost frightening: highest in the nation and roughly double the legacy admissions of the Ivy's most often criticized for their policies: Princeton @14% and Yale @10%. While the fairness of such a policy is clearly questionable, the impact on the student body in terms of diversity, creativity and independent thought is the larger concern.</p>
<p>One big happy family!</p>
<p>You can't compare top quarter to the whole student body, that just isn't fair. I could say the top quarter of Notre Dame blows the student body of Michigan out of the water. Compare apples to apples.</p>
<p>hahaha bianchi</p>
<p>Also, to the legacy. While it may seem questionable (although still less so than UM's strong AA), alumni of ND feel a stronger love for their school than any other group of alumni. For this reason, a greater quantity of them want their children to go through the university they love. If there's more applying, there's more getting accepted.</p>
<p>Project86, please attempt to explain why you feel affirmative action is more objectionable than an extreme bias toward children of alumni. That bias likely provides a clue to ND's ranking in alumni donations as well: buying their progeny admissions. ND students are the "Stepford Wives" of higher education.</p>
<p>Alumni have shown loyalty to the school, so the school should have some connection/loyalty to their alums, correct? I'm not sure what the reasoning is behind AA, other than making a pretty picture.</p>