<p>I don’t think so MrPrince. Sorry.</p>
<p>“rjkofnovi, from what I’ve seen so far, you seem to possess zero understanding of making educated arguments.”</p>
<p>When I see an educated argument, I will understand it. I’m still waiting…</p>
<p>“For one the gap between Cornell and Wustl is not that much. 13-15 is not the same things as 15-29. Same goes for your other comparisons. I am sure you know the difference between a 14 position gap and 3-4 gap. These are all in the same tier. Some statistical variations could let one school go over another but not as large as the gap between cornell and Michigan.”</p>
<p>Small gap or not, WUSTL and Northwestern have been ranked higher than Cornell or Brown most virtually every single year since 2000. Penn has been ranked as higher than Stanford and MIT most years since 2000 too. The gap may be small, but it is still strong enough to separate those schools. And what do you make of the gap between Penn and Brown orf Cornell. On average, for over 10 years now, Penn has been ranked 10 spots higher than Brown and Cornell. Is that gap also small? Or do you actually believe that Penn is significantly better than Brown and Cornell?</p>
<p>“Stuck at 29 . . how does it look from down there?” </p>
<p>Classy statement.</p>
<p>“Most importantly why care?”
I guess you went to a school where students don’t care about their school or whether or not it is downgraded/belittled by others.</p>
<p>“Secondly, I dont care about USNEWS. However, I do think cherry picking data does not make sense. Like PA scores- good, USNEWS-bad.”</p>
<p>The PA cannot be bad since it does not claim to be accurate or the absolute truth. The PA is an opinion poll, nothing more. At the same time, it is real. No matter what, the PA is a fairly accurate representation of what academe thinks. The PA has remained virtually unchanged over the last 30+ years. Other forms of ratings conducted in academe have yielded similar results. The USNWR ranking, on the other hand, claims to be the factual, scientific and accurate…which it isn’t.</p>
<p>“Obviously the reason why this is done is pretty obvious. To those who want to see of course”</p>
<p>I am afraid your understanding is very limited in this regard.</p>
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<p>First of all, noimagination is in high school. Its likely he cannot understand complex arguments or see when two things dont match up. I would expect more from you</p>
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<p>Go and sleep. You are not obviously going to get significantly sharper in a few hours are you ;)</p>
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<p>This does not make sense. Who is the “it”- the PA. But yes, the PA is an opinion poll. It is real just like the USNEWS ranking is real. The PA has remained constant for 30 years even suggests that its more of a perception than a reality. To claim that schools have not changed or declined in standards over 30 years is ridiculous. </p>
<p>Dump that statistic I say. How do you know it is a fairly acurate representation of what academe thinks? Do you understand that you have not shown me why? You are just using logical circumlocution withough telling me why the PA is accurate despite its criticism. Moreover the views of a few (yes everyone who is surveyed in the US news report) are still not the majority. Most importantly, the PA SCORE used at the undergraduate level is done by the President, the Provost and dean of a university. Not even the people who are currently teaching in the class. </p>
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<p>Actually I did lol. No one followed the USNEWS ranking. I think I was the only one weird enough to know my school rank. And I knew its rank when I came in.</p>
<p>Then I came to CC. Wow some people do love rankings. They table it, analyze it, extrapolate data from it. </p>
<p>I am not downgrading Michigan when I say its not as good as Cornell. Its a personal opinion. Some Cornell students might think comparing them to UMich could be belittling them you know. When have you seen Cornell students strive to compare themselves to UMich? Now the opposite . . .</p>
<p>When you or anyone say UMich is better than UIUC, you are not in anyway downgrading UIUC. Do you understand this line of logic?</p>
<p>“Yet you three keep deluding yourselves! From your post history, you’ve all been putting down other universities and promoting your own. Great job you guys…”</p>
<p>MrPrince, I disagree with most of your post #82. But I take exception to your concluding remark. I do not put down other universities and I do not promote my own. I defend universities in general, and since the universities that get the least respect on CC are publics, I end up spending more time defending the likes of Cal and Michigan than I do defending other schools.</p>
<p>Both sefago and Alexandre make good points actually. But it seems that academically, UMich and Cornell and Yale or Princeton for that matter are equal. Reputation-wise/prestige-wise, however, Cornell is higher than UMich simply because its been around longer, its Ivy League, and its more selective. The name “Cornell” has become very regal while UMich at a quick glance can be mistook for another common state school. Nevertheless, the difference should be so little that it shouldn’t matter.</p>
<p>That’s all there is to it. No need to use PA scores as virtually NO ONE in real life will understand its meaning. I’ve never seen PA scores used as an argument outside of CC. USNews does seem to carry some power however…but nevertheless, its clear that Cornell is considered “better” among common folk than UMichgan. However, in the field of academia, UMich and Cornell are equal peers.
I would like inputs regarding my post (except for rjkofnovi who I will go out of my way to ignore).</p>
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I see. I apologize for my outburst.</p>
<p>@UCB
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<p>I did not ask for anything. I personally said that Cornell is better than UMich. Obviously this is my own opinion. rjknovi asks for proof but following from your argument. </p>
<p>So you have no problem with “subjective opinion” but you have a problem with my perceptions which are no different from subjective opinions based on my own experience. Why does what I say need proof, while you can give me crappy information from a poll conducted in 2003 on the phone. </p>
<p>You were not forced you to post crappy proof especially one that shows that 30 people “think” that Mich is the best school in the US. You could easily survey “30” people schooling at UMich and get a similar result. </p>
<p>Imagine if rjknovi was included in such surveys. Now imagine if by some misfortune we have 30 rjks. </p>
<p>This is not proof.</p>
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You’re acting like Stanford and MIT are in a different league than Penn or Columbia. Newsflash: They’re not. Columbia’s academic reputation is absolutely on par with Stanford at the graduate level and its student body is stronger at the undergraduate level. Their selectivity is extremely similar as well to boot. What makes Stanford so much better? Penn is just as good if not better than MIT in the humanities. Also, at the professional school level, Wharton is better than Sloan and MIT has no equivalent to Penn Med/Penn Law. Duke is also more well-rounded than MIT and the strength of their student bodies are pretty similar. Duke blows MIT out of the water by the way in terms of law school, med school and Wall Street placement. The same goes with Penn. MIT is peerless in engineering, but that’s just one area.</p>
<p>Penn is not significantly better than Brown and Cornell but it has noticeably stronger academics than Brown and better selectivity/financial resources than Cornell so it makes sense it is ranked higher than both consistently.</p>
<p>Michigan is not even on the same playing field as these above universities. It will soon drop out of the 30 in the most respected college ranking system that exists. It’s quite unfortunate considering how world-class its graduate programs are. If Mary Sue Coleman and the Board of Trustees don’t privatize the university soon, Michigan will no longer be a “top” university.</p>
<p>I predict that Michigan’s yield will also drop approximately 10% after joining the Common Application. You will soon see why me and dozens of other informed posters on this website have been saying for so long that Michigan can’t compete with the 15 most elite privates in the country: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, Brown, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, Caltech and Johns Hopkins. No out of state student in his right mind would ever choose Michigan over any of these 15 schools unless Michigan puts some serious money on the table.</p>
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What exactly are you trying to say? The PA is A PART OF the USNWR. How can you dismiss the ranking entirely when you base almost your entire view of the pecking order of American universities on one part of it (the PA)?</p>
<p>sefago: Like I said, rjkofnovi is full of contradictions. He’s lucky this isn’t 1800s Europe or Imperial Japan. Contradiction could get you killed those days.</p>
<p>You are better off analyzing Alexandre’s points.</p>
<p>Sefago, I am not supporting the legitimacy of the PA, but it is what your typical graduate school admissions committee will think. Do you honestly think that university provosts and presidents live in a vacuum?</p>
<p>“I am not downgrading Michigan when I say its not as good as Cornell. Its a personal opinion. Some Cornell students might think comparing them to UMich could be belittling them you know. When have you seen Cornell students strive to compare themselves to UMich? Now the opposite.”</p>
<p>I don’t think students at either university will obsesively compare themselves to the other. Michigan does not strive to be Cornell in the least and many would actually be offended by the comparison and the same goes for Cornell students. As an alum of both schools, I have seldom met students at either school that compared their school to another university. Students at both schools take a lot of pride in their uniqueness and long history of academic excellence.</p>
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<p>I think that’s debatable. I know everyone loves to cite this ranking in particular, but what makes it any better or worse than other rankings?</p>
<p>“Reputation-wise/prestige-wise, however, Cornell is higher than UMich simply because its been around longer, its Ivy League, and its more selective. The name “Cornell” has become very regal while UMich at a quick glance can be mistook for another common state school. Nevertheless, the difference should be so little that it shouldn’t matter.”</p>
<p>MrPrince, in some circles (not well informed but seeking information), Cornell will benefit greatly from its affiliation to the Ivy League. In most circles, the Ivy League distinction will not give Cornell the edge because the uneducated masses just don’t know (or care) and the highly educated will respect non-Ivy elites such as Cal, Chicago, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern just as much as the Ivies.</p>
<p>I agree with much of what you say though, with one little correction. Michigan is actually 50 years older than Cornell. In fact, one of Cornell’s co-founders was recruited from the University of Michigan and Cornell’s first two presidents were recruited from the University of Michigan.</p>
<p>aajjc, LDB is generally clueless, but he is right about the USNWR ranking. It is far an away the most high-profile ranking availlable to US high school students. But that is the extent of it. </p>
<p>Internationally, students are more likely to refer to the QS Times rankings (particularly those in Europe or those following the British system of education) and the ARWU (particularly in Asia) rankings than the USNWR rankings. </p>
<p>Adults in the real world are completely oblivious to the USNWR college rankings. If they look at any ranking, it would be rankings of graduate programs that they may be considering or rankings of programs in their professional/academic field of speciality.</p>
<p>Of course, regardless of the origin, rankings are generally flawed.</p>
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LOL. Thanks so much for the unwarranted ad hominem.</p>
<p>When I wrote “I just don’t understand your posts,” I meant that in the most literal sense possible. The sentences do not flow smoothly at all, and I was getting a headache.</p>
<p>If you are a non-native English speaker, then I understand how difficult working with a second language can be, having tried to do so myself - your English is vastly better than my French. But please do not conclude that I am incapable of following “complex arguments” based solely on a communication failure or language barrier.</p>
<p>Just letting you know my point of view. I wish it weren’t necessary.</p>
<p>Sefago, you asked a question in post #69. I gave you the only info I know to help support your request of laymen sentiment. I said it doesn’t prove it because its all subjective. However, I think Gallup has a decent reputation and knows how to conduct opinion polls…you can go complain to them about their methodology.</p>
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Au contraire, many international students choose solely based on the USNWR. A Korean international student who lived across the hall from me during my freshman year of college chose Duke over Northwestern just because it was ranked 1-2 spots higher so he thought it was a “better” school. I don’t agree with him and his rationale for choosing Duke, but this is a common phenomenon among international students, especially Indians/Chinese/Koreans/Taiwanese/etc.</p>
<p>Also, you still haven’t responded to why Stanford and MIT are so much clearly better than Columbia and Penn that they deserve to be in their tier.</p>
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Wow, I learn something everyday ;)</p>
<p>“Au contraire, many international students choose solely based on the USNWR. A Korean international student who lived across the hall from me during my freshman year of college chose Duke over Northwestern just because it was ranked 1-2 spots higher so he thought it was a “better” school. I don’t agree with him and his rationale for choosing Duke, but this is a common phenomenon among international students, especially Indians/Chinese/Koreans/Taiwanese/etc.”</p>
<p>Many international students will look at the USNWR, but in general, it is not as widespread internationally as it is in the US. Most international students will look at other rankings.</p>
<p>“Also, you still haven’t responded to why Stanford and MIT are so much clearly better than Columbia and Penn that they deserve to be in their tier.”</p>
<p>It is pointless to debate this LDB. From our countless debates in the past neither one of us has managed to convince the other of anything. If you believe that Columbia and Penn are equal to MIT and Stanford, I will not be able to convince you otherwise. But for accuracy’s sake, I never said MIT and Stanford are “so much clearly better” than Columbia and Penn. I simply believe that they are slightly better. In my opnion, there is a small but clear difference in the quality of the institutions.</p>
<p>MrPrince, check out the bios of Jerome Wiesner and Charles Vest. You will learn something new once more! ;)</p>
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<p>This is not backed with any fact. Except you have discussed with every international students from all over the world you can get a good idea of this. I think some international students can tell the difference between university of Melbourne and Rice university. I have talked to tons of international students- when i mean tons, I mean from every single country and most dont know QS ranking. Infact most dont check USNEWS ranking either. However, when i was applying to college the QS ranking was not that popular on CC. Internationals choosing a school in the US will look more into the USNEWS ranking. Internationals picking schools in the UK for example will likely look into the Guardian and Times ranking than QS ranking to gauge their job prospects in britain. People in Canada might check the Maclean ranking but all schools in canada tend to be at par with each other </p>
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<p>LOL, ok. As long as my undergrad deemed it fit to give me a degree I am quite happy. you on the other-hand need to actually finish college first.</p>
<p>Regardless, I type very very fast</p>
<p>“People in Canada might check the Maclean ranking but all schools in canada tend to be at par with each other”</p>
<p>So now you are an expert on Canadian schools as well? Do you honestly believe this statement?</p>