Michigan VS. Illinois

College Search & Selection
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<p>“How do you propose we measure this?”</p>

<p>MrPrince, it cannot be measured. That is the problem with the USNWR. It claims to measure things that cannot be measured. How can you measure the effectiveness of 1,000-4,000 professors teaching 6,000-25,000 undergrads a total of 2,000-7,000 courses annually?</p>

<p>“As for any rankings to be false/misleading…do you believe people will question them? For instance, if I show the USNWR to a group of people who have never seen it, do you really believe a majority of them will think deeply and question the rankings? It has never happened to anyone I’ve showed USNWR to.”</p>

<p>I think most people don’t care. I personally don’t. I do care when people try to prove their point using rankings.</p>

<p>“If you ask why does it matter if people would question rankings or not…then what is lay prestige? Won’t lay prestige form from these rankings? Isn’t lay prestige what half of CCers are obsessed with?”</p>

<p>Lay prestige applies to an entire population. Past the 16-25 segment of the population, rankings are hardly an indication of lay prestige. I would say the majority of people are unaware of the quality of most top universities. Schools like Brown, Carnegie Mellon, Chicago, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Penn, Rice etc… are hardly known to the lay person. Schools like Cal, Duke, Michigan, New York University, Notre Dame, UNC and USC probably have more lay prestige because of their location and/or athletic teams.</p>

<p>“How is this for a solution: Accept the rankings the way they are? I’m using a question mark as I’m not entirely sure about this situation myself.”</p>

<p>Although I do not agree with rankings (even those that closely mirror my expectations), I have certainly never had a problem accepting them.</p>

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USNWR is the gold standard for rankings and is used as a measuring stick for students, parents and college administrators alike.</p>

<p>[TheDartmouth.com</a> | Early decision apps reach record numbers](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2010/11/16/news/earlydecision]TheDartmouth.com”>http://thedartmouth.com/2010/11/16/news/earlydecision)
'The U.S. News and World Report ranking that placed Dartmouth first in undergraduate teaching may also be responsible for increased interest in the College, Laskaris said.</p>

<p>“I think the fact that Dartmouth has been highlighted twice in a row now for the quality of undergraduate teaching is a really important factor for many students as they are thinking about the quality of the undergraduate experience and wanting to be in an institution that really values teaching as well as research, but has the breadth of opportunities that Dartmouth has,” Laskaris said.</p>

<p>The College also moved up two places in the U.S. News and World Report ranking for national universities, from 11th to ninth place.'</p>

<p>[</a>" + artTitle.replace(“-”,“”) + " - " + “The Daily Northwestern” + "](<a href=“http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/northwestern-places-12th-in-new-u-s-news-and-world-report-rankings-1.2304693]”>http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/northwestern-places-12th-in-new-u-s-news-and-world-report-rankings-1.2304693)
"NU occupied the No. 12 position by itself, breaking out of a two-year tie with Washington University in St. Louis. Overall, it scored two points higher than last year on the 100 point scale, putting it just one point shy of three schools, including the Unviersity of Chicago, tied for ninth place.
NU bested all other Big Ten Schools – the University of Michigan came in second at No. 29 – and two Ivy League schools, Brown University and Cornell University.
University spokesman Al Cubbage called the results “very encouraging.”'</p>

<p>"Still, the list is regarded as a leading indicator of university performance. Current NU President Morton Schapiro said it’s “pretty clear” that prospective students look at it “pretty seriously.”</p>

<p>It’s clear that the USNWR is of paramount importance to the reputation of American universities since it occupies the position of being the most respected ranking out there. Already, there is a huge generational gap between how prestigious people consider schools like Michigan, Georgetown and Berkeley and others like Penn, Duke and Chicago.</p>

<p>[Early</a> apps constant over last year | Yale Daily News](<a href=“http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/nov/16/early-apps-constant-over-last-year/]Early”>http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2010/nov/16/early-apps-constant-over-last-year/)
Look, even Yale is worried about Penn’s rapid ascent.</p>

<p>[Comments</a> | The Michigan Daily](<a href=“http://www.michigandaily.com/node/55423/talk]Comments”>Talk is cheap)
Alex please read some of the comments here about the alma mater and its decreasing quality and commitment to undergraduates.</p>

<p>“No, out of state don’t get their money’s worth. Nothing suggests that UM grads do better than any other R1 school. Actually in the Big Ten, Illinois graduates have the highest average starting salaries and 98% Northwestern graduates who want a job find one within 6 months of graduation, highest in the Big Ten. UM is on par with Purdue and Wisconsin when it comes to starting salaries and job placement within 6 months. Those two schools are significantly cheaper (in-state and out-of-state tuition). Average MCAT and LSAT scores for UM are on par with Purdue and Wisconsin also. I couldn’t find a graduate school placement rate, but given the statistics, UM is probably on par with Purdue and Wisconsin also. Even in-state students in a sense aren’t getting their money’s worth. Out-of-state students are truly getting ripped off here. There really is no good reason to go to UM as an out-of-state student, you can take that money and go else where and truly get your money’s worth.”</p>

<p>"It was a matter of time till this happened… Large courses, over reliance on Teaching Assistants, faculty more interested in their 6 figure salaries and research than their undergraduate students, admin just looking to get rich, etc… That could only go on for so long. Not to mention the outrageous out-of-state tuition, right there you kill off most top students from outside the state because they can pay the same amount for a private education (small classes, faculty who actually care, nicer dorms, no Rich Rod etc…). What were they thinking when they decided to raise out-of-state tuition that much? Did they really think people form out-side the state would pay that much for a public state school education? Not to mention a state school in a rapid decline in academic prestige. What a huge mess.</p>

<p>"Perhaps the reality has come home that our undergraduate program is nothing more than a diploma mill (e.g., compare our undergraduate figures to any T50 school; or calculate the ratio of alumni to endowment as a measure of alumni giving & contentedness with their Blue experience), which chews up and spits out Michigan residents as a “courtesy” to its in-state residents and bilks the out-of-state students who leave bitter and never to give anything in return (donations or otherwise). And the U continues to hang its hat on the sagging strengths of its graduate program.</p>

<p>Please stop the bleeding."</p>

<p>It’s clear why you and Mary Sue Coleman don’t see the value of USNWR but thousands of Michigan alumni take it very seriously and are not happy that what was once a top 10 American university will no longer be in the top 30 next year.</p>

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USNEWS continuously tweaks its ranking methodology…that is one thing that has probably changed the most vs. a perceived “decline” of UMich. Earliest methodology used by USNWR was entirely peer assessment, and those rankings had UMich near or in top 10. If you look at the current ranking and apply the old methodology of all peer assessment, UMich is still near Top 10 - tied with Duke.</p>

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<p>Alexandre, I agree and disagree with this statement. The average person in the Midwest or anyone who follows Big 10 athletics has heard of Northwestern. Meanwhile, University of Chicago is relatively unknown to the average person.</p>

<p>bclintonk posted this chart of number of applications at UNSWR Top-25 colleges/universities by region:

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/974984-most-popular-super-elite-us-news-top-25-colleges-universities-state.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/974984-most-popular-super-elite-us-news-top-25-colleges-universities-state.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>^ Uh huh…and I’ll be willing to bet that most Americans think Northwestern is located in Washington state or Oregon.</p>

<p>No such geographical name problem with the University of Chicago. ;)</p>

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<p>^^ Some people have often confused University of Chicago with University of Illinois-Chicago. ;)</p>

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<p>tenisghs, I was referring to lay prestige at a national level. I am sure that to ambitious Midwestern students, Chicago and NU are both well known.</p>

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<p>I think Northwestern is pretty well known nationally simply because of it’s affiliation with the Big 10. I would say because of that sports alliance, more people nationally are aware of the quality of NU over Chicago. If you ask the average person where NU is, he would probably not have a clue. Of course this is true of 90% or more of non-city or state named schools. :-)</p>

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<p>^ I agree, rjk! Its Big 10 membership is a plus. It is not as well known as Michigan, but to say it’s on the same level as Brown, Chicago and Rice is underrating it. The chart illustrates clearly that NU has far more name recognition than Chicago. It is also growing nationally as more NU grads are relocating to other parts of the country. </p>

<p>While Harvard is clearly number one in name recognition, there are many people who cannot point to it on a map!</p>

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LOL! <em>facepalm</em> </p>

<p>Looks kinda funny out of context, eh?</p>

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Christ, the average American probably couldn’t point out Illinois on a map…so sad.</p>

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<p>Michigan is easy to find. Just look at the right palm of your hand and see what part of the map it matches up to. ;-)</p>

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<p>Any generation that values texting over real contact and Twitter/Facebook in any form is just not worthy of taking seriously. Thankfully the rest of the world is not so easily duped.</p>

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<p>^^^Totally agree!</p>

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<p>First of all, searching through my post history already tells me how much of a creeper you are. Secondly, you took my quote out of context. Sefago actually made valid and intelligent points. You do not.

Your response here tells me that you do believe in departments having select peers. Which means you also believe there are certain universities that don’t consider others as peers. Do you realize how elitist this is? Do you believe Caltech’s electrical engineering dept will refuse to cooperate with Arizona State’s dept if requested just because ASU hasn’t won as many Nobel Prizes as Caltech?
Universities primarily don’t exist to compete against each other. They exist to make this world a better place.

Good job for making this the most dramatically phrased section of your response. Even a child can deliver arguments better than you.</p>

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<p>“First of all, searching through my post history already tells me how much of a creeper you are.”</p>

<p>Very easy to do here on CC. They even have a link. With only 45 posts, it really takes no time at all.</p>

<p>“Secondly, you took my quote out of context.”</p>

<p>I learned that from an expert. You weren’t even smart enough to try to cover up my supporting remarks when you did it. </p>

<p>I did not make up peer assessment scores both at the overall university level and departmental level. If you don’t like it, take it up with USNWR. All I know is most universities use these rankings when it is to their advantage. Whether they are accurate or not, they do exist. </p>

<p>“Good job for making this the most dramatically phrased section of your response. Even a child can deliver arguments better than you.”</p>

<p>My problem with you is not that I disagree with your opinions as much as I really despise your attitude. You’ve been insulting me for pages now and keep promising that you will ignore me. I’m still waiting for that to happen. In the meantime, I suggest you work on your grammar. Your writing is childlike. </p>

<p>With that said, I am putting you on ignore.</p>

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<p>I hate MrPrince too. He can be such a d!ck sometimes, but he’s got points and he certainly crushed you, rjkofnovi. lol</p>

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<p>^^I don’t see it that way, but of course you are entitled to your opinion.</p>

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<p>I agree especially the ones which suggest that Cornell (15) is better than Michigan (29). Might not be accurate. I dont know. But they still of course exist. I think those having a problem with it should go to USNEWS and file a report.</p>

<p>PA scores is not even a ranking system except at the departmental ranking. Most times the PA score is based on perception and reputation as opposed to actualy quality. If you bothered to read one of the reports critically you would have noticed two things:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/19/rankings[/url]”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/19/rankings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Most of these so called academics are clueless about the school they are rating. They can only comment on schools that they have worked with and experienced critically.</p>

<p>Now this is an important issue because very few academics would have the opportunity to teach at more than 3-4 universities in a long term period. In principle most of these schools should be left blank but several of tese informed academics cannot stop the itch to grade schools they know nothing about in terms of academic quality.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/19/rankings[/url]”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/19/rankings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Alexandre this is one of the reasons why the PA score has remained fairly consistent lol. Presidents and provosts have way better things to do than fill a guess-which-school-is-good survey. They just copy what they had from last year and give it to the suckers.</p>

<p>Funny some schools have a honor code and their administrators do not keep to it.</p>