Michigan vs USC

College Search & Selection
21

I’m not trying to upset anyone, but my perceptions are based on my personal experiences in the early 90s. I lived at both schools in dorms and took classes and hung out with undergraduates at both places. The reading room at UM Law is used by undergrads so that’s where I met many. I went to frat parties, football games and academic events and was fully engaged at the university, unlike some of my classmates who stayed among law students.

I dated undergraduates and grad students too. I had a lot of fun. However, the place was huge compared to USC. Btw, the schools are only the same size because USC has over 5,000 remote or online grad students.

Despite UM’s larger endowment, one would think that should translate into better facilities, better dorms, housing, easier registration or smaller classes. It didn’t. I would not pay OOS tuition for the lack of amenities and huge classes alone.

I cannot speak for Cornell or Berkeley or any place else as compared to UM.

One interesting fact is that UM has fallen in the rankings both at the undergrad and law school levels, and the administration and trustees are reacting incompetently to stem the tide, IMO.

22

Sidkane, every year, roughly 250 freshmen from California enroll at the University of Michigan. There are currently over 1,000 students from California at the University of Michigan. One of the biggest feeders from California is Harvard Westlake, which sends, on average, 20-25 students to Michigan annually (that’s more the the total number of students from HW who enroll at the UCs (all 9 of them combined!) Actually, Michigan is the second most popular destination for HW students (ironically, the most popular destination is USC). Considering HW’s status as one of the best high schools in CA and its students have a multitude of options, the fact that students continue to enroll at Michigan in large numbers annually is a clear indication that the feedback they are receiving from their fellow classmates going to Michigan is very positive.

http://students.hw.com/Portals/44/profile.pdf

From the East Coast, Michigan gets a lot of students from the Phillips Academies (Andover and Exeter) and other elite boarding schools.

http://www.exeter.edu/documents/College_Matriculation.pdf
http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CollegeCounseling/Documents/PASchoolProfile2014-2015.pdf

23

In fairness, you’ve expressed the same concern about USC’s administration allowing it to get too big - and how that might impact USCs ranking.

USC is a huge school. It’s not like they’re going to shower you with individual attention like a small LAC.

24

USC is huge relative to Stanford, to be sure, but small as compared to UM at the undergrad level.

25

“Despite UM’s larger endowment, one would think that should translate into better facilities, better dorms, housing, easier REGISTRATION or smaller classes. It didn’t. I would not pay OOS tuition for the lack of amenities and huge classes alone.”

Michigan’s endowment was not that big back in the early 1990s. It grew exponentially between 1995 and now. In 1989, Michigan’s endowment was not even among the 25 largest in the US. Today, it is the 6th largest in the nation. Classes at Michigan are not larger than classes at USC, and the amenities at Michigan are actually world class. Have you actually seen the Engineering, Medical and Business School facilities? The dorms were not that nice in the 1990s, but Michigan has invested over $100 million in refurbishing them in the last 10 years. Classes at Michigan are large in popular majors, but USC is not exactly known for having small classes. According to published reports, both have approximately 50% of their classes with 20 or fewer students and 15% of their classes with 50 or more students.

Also, Michigan’s budget is much larger than USC ($6.6 billion at Michigan vs $3.9 billion at USC), which means that the Michigan is spending more on faculty and facilities.

“USC is huge relative to Stanford, to be sure, but small as compared to UM at the undergrad level.”

Not really. 19,000 is not significantly smaller than 28,000…especially when you consider that Michigan is far wealthier and has a much larger budget. Like UCB said, you are not going to have personal attention in a university that has more than 3,000 undergrads. Michigan and USC are both large and have a research-intensive faculty. I would not claim that one of those universities feels much more intimate and personal that the other. It just doesn’t sound honest. People who want a personalized and intimate setting should go to a LAC. Students go to schools like Michigan for the state-of-the-art facilities, cutting edge research, world-class faculty and top ranked departments.

“One interesting fact is that UM has fallen in the rankings both at the undergrad and law school levels, and the administration and trustees are reacting incompetently to stem the tide, IMO.”

That’s because the administration is not willing to game the rankings has have many other universities, especially private universities. Michigan includes graduate students in its student to faculty ratio, it does not flood its course catalog with gimmick seminars to make it appear that it has a large percentage of smaller classes and it does not harrass alums for donations. The problem with Michigan’s ranking in the US News is not a result of the university’s quality, but rather a result of the magazine’s methodology, both in terms of its content, and in the way the data is collected (inconsistently and inaccurately).

But where it matters, the reputation rating, Michigan has not dropped at all. It is still rated among the top dozen universities in the nation.

As for the Law school ranking, Michigan has dropped because of its student to faculty ratio (most of its peers have a 10:1 ratio, while Michigan has a 12:1 ratio). The difference between #6 and #14 in the rankings is truly insignificant. But again, reputationally, among lawyers, judges and Big Law, Michigan Law is still among the top 5 or 6 programs in the nation.

26

I don’t think it’s small enough to have a material impact on the undergraduate experience. The coursework dictates how the class is taught. 100 extra people in a lecture is not going to make a difference on your learning.

27

I say game, game, game. There is a huge difference in perception between 6 and 11, at least among prestige hungry college students. I’ve never heard of anything world class at Michigan, jk, but in fairness I haven’t stepped foot in A2 since 1999.:slight_smile:

28

Gaming is not sustainable. Eventually, the rankings will be debunked. I would rather Michigan drop slightly in the rankings than resort to fabricating data to make itself look better.

And the perception of Michigan where it matters (graduate school admissions and corporate world) has not changed…it is still considered elite.

29

Again chem I disagree. 100 extra kids means I’ve got to compete more for the professor’s attention and an A, which number affects the curve.

30

“Again chem I disagree. 100 extra kids means I’ve got to compete more for the professor’s attention and an A, which number affects the curve.”

Really? You think students can get additional attention from a professor in a class with 250 students than in a class with 350 students? SeattleTW, USC has 19,000 undergraduate students. No matter how hard it tries, it is not going to be able to give undergraduate students individualized attention. Students are going to have to be independent and self-reliant.

31

“I’ve never heard of anything world class at Michigan, jk, but in fairness I haven’t stepped foot in A2 since 1999”

You haven’t been in Ann Arbor in over fifteen years? No wonder you are out of touch with reality. You should make the trip. I think you’d be shocked at how much the school has changed in your absense.

32

Alex, your cutoff of 3000 students to get personal attention is low by about 7000.

33

Both schools are pretty similar in quality at the undergraduate level. I’d choose for fit. Do you want to be in a big city or a college town?

One big gripe about Los Angeles is that public transportation is terrible. But next year (or later this year,) the Expo line is going to open up in full. This line will take its riders from one side of the city to another, from Downtown to the beach (Santa Monica). And one of it’s stops is just south of USC’s campus. So you could certainly have a lot of fun in LA over the next for years, and on USC’s campus.

34

I never had a class at USC anywhere approaching 250! Wow, that number would make it hard to interact with any professor. My largest class was calculus with just under 100 students my freshman year.

Perhaps one day I’ll return to A2 but I’m very upset the idiot administrators have ignored the rankings, and I’m not one to hold my breath waiting for them to be “debunked.” Michigan is a perfect example of ivory tower academics living in isolation and denial and resting on their laurels while more ambitious colleges pass them by.

35

Thanks for all of the input. I tend to agree on waiting for rankings to be debunked. We are in our way to the admitted students day at both schools over the next couple days.

36

“Perhaps one day I’ll return to A2 but I’m very upset the idiot administrators have ignored the rankings, and I’m not one to hold my breath waiting for them to be “debunked.” Michigan is a perfect example of ivory tower academics living in isolation and denial and resting on their laurels while more ambitious colleges pass them by.”

Why should you be upset? You attended the higher ranked school at the undergraduate level. Following USNWR rankings, which everyone knows favors private universities, is your downfall and not the school’s. Perhaps you can start a discussion on the USC board in the CC top rated universities section why that school is so much better than Michigan. Let us know when you find it…

37

I remember how upset some of the UM undergrads were when reading how UM had fallen out of the top 25. IMHO, I believe UM is better than UCLA, for example, but it’s very hard comparing UM to USC or public and private colleges, because they are very different insofar as culture and vibe. I didn’t even mention the tension in law school between the private and public schooled undergrads.

That said, the idea that rankings and perception among the non academic hoi polloi are irrelevant is a dangerous point of view. I know many UM Law alumni who dismiss the rankings as beneath the “mission” of the school. That insular thinking has allowed UM Law to fall from number 3 to number 11 in the past 30 years, an unprecedented fall from grace among the top law schools. UM is the poster child of administrative incompetence, based upon an entrenched unwillingness to fight or play the game, and despite its huge endowment that can easily be leveraged to stop the fall.

I predict in ten years UM Law and UM in general will be more like Texas, Minnesota and Wisconsin, as opposed to Cal, UVA and UCLA. Not that this is a bad thing, but something I don’t see happening to other schools that are hungrier and willing to do whatever it takes to climb the rankings.

38

Really?!

Michigan and USC are very similar. Same size student population, large research institutions, loyal alumni base, strong school spirit and football history, and well known fight songs.

39

Nope, the fundamental difference is USC is a private school where 46 percent of the kids come from private high schools. Think a larger version of Stanford insofar as culture and vibe and demographics. Our student body is closer to Berkeley in terms of SAT stats.

Actually, I believe our scores eclipse Cal.

40

“I predict in ten years UM Law and UM in general will be more like Texas, Minnesota and Wisconsin, as opposed to Cal, UVA and UCLA. Not that this is a bad thing, but something I don’t see happening to other schools that are hungrier and willing to do whatever it takes to climb the rankings.”

I predict in ten years USNWR rankings will be gone and dismissed as the sham they have always been. Ranking institutions based on sometimes silly and easily manipulated factors that favor private schools, is the mainn reason why they have grown so much to begin with. Let’s face it, if you’re going to spend upwards of 50K/year to attend a college, with no instate discounts, it better be worth your while.