Mid-Level Schools for my daughter?

College Search & Selection
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<p>Good advice. As many have said, your D does not have the scores or the course rigor to be a realistic candidate at any of the Ivys or equivalents she is considering. Raising her ACT “a bit” will not do it. She needs something more like a 33. Her PSAT indicates that her SATs would be way out of the park. She’d need something closer to a 2300 than a 1700. Realize that the lower quartile students at these schools will largely be hooked: recruited athletes, URMs, development admits, legacies. The typical realistic <strong>unhooked</strong> candidates for those schools take APs across the curriculum–if they are available–and calc in HS, no matter what they are interested in majoring in, because they want the intellectual challenge. Many of them are the type of kid who, if the school had no newspaper, would have started one back in sophomore year. Nor is she a realistic candidate for Wellesley or Barnard. (Realize that there is even more self selection going on there than in many elite LACs: a 40% acceptance rate is VERY deceiving.) Her best bet, in terms of getting into the most selective school possible, would be test-optional schools such as Smith and MHC, Wake Forest, Bates, Bowdoin. If she is a committed LDS woman, though, I would be concerned that she would find the atmosphere at most of those difficult. If, on the other hand, she is uncomfortable with the pattern of LDS life for young women in Utah, she might thrive. </p>

<p>In addition, those schools are unlikely to have “vocational” majors such as undergraduate journalism or business. (With the exception of Wake.) I would suggest that a school like Syracuse would be a better match in many ways.</p>

<p>Your D has a solid record and will get into excellent schools. She just needs a more realistic list. </p>

<p>BTW, I <em>do</em> think that she should take another year of Spanish.</p>

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<p>“Raising her ACT “a bit” will not do it. She needs something more like a 33”</p>

<p>OP’s D is testing at a 27 and Barnard’s ACT Composite middle 50% is (28–32). IF she could raise it 2 or 3 more points, I wouldn’t see her test scores as a primary factor keeping her out. </p>

<p>I would, however, agree her EC’s don’t really stand out as presented here, and her vocational interests may not align well with Barnard and other comparable LAC curriculums. Also, I completely agree with your comments on rigor of high school curriculum. Top tier colleges do want to see depth and excellence in the basics including foreign language and math. I don’t think they really care for AP electives in lieu of the basics. A lot of these kids are already in math classes beyond AP calc, and in their 5th or 6th year of one language, and sometimes two or three by their senior year. It’s not something you can make up late in the game.</p>

<p>And, I don’t mean to demean her EC’s. It’s mostly out of my own ignorance. I know nothing about most of the clubs/organizations referenced or the church or what a church medal is or involves. She’ll, of course, need to add context in her applications.</p>

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<p>I don’t know what would keep this student or any student out of Barnard. I know that my H’s high stats, accomplished niece was rejected by Barnard about 6 years ago and her family is still scratching their heads. It’s all good because she went to WashU and will soon graduate from Yale Law. But, for some reason, Barnard rejected her. She from Colorado which I wouldn’t think would be a state that has a gazillion applicants. But, maybe Barnard thought she was using them as a safety? </p>

<p>I wouldn’t count on just getting scores past the thresholds of the middle quartiles. I would think that those towards the bottom of the middle quartiles are still hooked in some way. </p>

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<p>“But, maybe Barnard thought she was using them as a safety?”</p>

<p>Though they don’t list ‘Level of Interest’ as very important. I get the sense they want to know you understand the school, and that you’re a serious applicant. Their supplement is somewhat extensive. I think applying ED helps in that regard.</p>

<p>“I would think that those towards the bottom of the middle quartiles are still hooked in some way.” </p>

<p>Agreed, it would help to score around a 30ish</p>

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<p>It’s not a matter of being “kept out” of Barnard – it’s a matter of getting IN. Barnard’s admission fits the “most” selective designation at the CollegeBoard and US News sites – that is the same broad designation given to the Ivies (a step above the designation of “very” selective). No one gets into those colleges without either having absolutely stellar academic credentials, extremely rich and famous parents, and/or something “special” to add to their application and make it stand out from the rest.</p>

<p>The most likely reason that the high stat applicant who got accepted to Wash U was turned down from Barnard was a lackluster application. By lackluster I mean that the application itself (essays, short answer) didn’t stand out in any meaningful way from the others. My daughter was accepted to all but one of her reach schools but waitlisted at schools she considered to be matches – I think that is because she targeted her reaches more and put more effort into the applications.She took the matches for granted – so the reaction from the admissions department was “meh”.</p>

<p>The standing out part needs to take part in the context of a process that will means that one or two very over-worked admission readers will spend roughly 5-10 minutes at most reading through the application. The best advice I ever got from CC was that an applicant’s chances were improved immensely if she could easily be described with two strong (and different) nouns or adjectives. The idea is that there was something memorable about the student, and something simple enough that it could easily be conveyed in the context of a round-table discussion with other admission officers. </p>

<p>The test scores are probably the least significant part of the application – that is, no one is ever rejected from a selective college simply because their test scores are at the bottom of the reported range. (Below range, yes – but if Barnard is willing to admit 25% of students with ACTs at or below 28, that is not a ground for rejection – it’s just that it doesn’t add any value to the application either.)</p>

<p>Colleges like to see students who challenge themselves and go beyond what their school offers in the pursuit of an interest or talent. Consolation is right: the aspiring journalist whose school has no newspaper would have started their own. </p>

<p>Again: it makes no sense for a parent to try to makeover their child in order to qualify for elite college admissions. As a parent, I can attest that the drive and determination needs to originate with the student. When a kid has it, there’s no mistaking it, nor is there any need to puzzle out what to put in the college apps. It’s just there, like a bright shining beacon that everyone who knows the kid can see. </p>

<p>There is nothing wrong with the kids who don’t happen to develop those sort of standout qualities in high school. But there is also nothing wrong with attending one’s state college or a school that doesn’t happen to be on the US News top 10 list. My son is a state college grad - and he had some incredible opportunities that came his way because he was in a college environment where he could stand out – so in hindsight it was the best possible choice he could have made for a college. </p>

<p>I do think that it’s important for kids to be realistic and for parents to help guide them to making the right choices. But part of that process starts with understanding where one stands among the competition.</p>

<p>I do also agree with Consolation that a student who may want to major in journalism should not be looking to Ivy/elites in any case. I think academics at elite colleges are structured around the idea of preparing students to be scholars – to enter Ph.D. programs, conduct research, write articles for scholarly journals. Journalists need to learn a different style of writing – one that favors clarity and easier readability, shorter sentences, active voice, fewer subordinate clauses. The OP should be looking at schools that will provide a good environment to develop her interests, not schools that look impressive as a bumper sticker on her parents’ car.</p>

<p>Maybe we should take the Barnard discussion over to the Barnard thread? I don’t think it really fits here … (As far as I know, the OP’s daughter doesn’t even have Barnard on her radar.)</p>

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<p>^^^^Agree</p>

<p>I’m sorry I suggested Barnard - seems it completely derailed this thread. My apologies to the OP, if you’re still reading.</p>

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<p>ED is not a good idea for a middle income family that needs financial aid. Maybe a very poor student who knows that “full need” essentially equates to a full ride – but not for anyone else. And Barnard doesn’t have the type of endowment to offer money that goes beyond FAFSA EFC; it also builds loans and work study into the awards, and the estimated COA probably falls very short of the actual cost of living in New York City, especially if the student has chosen the college because they want to participate in all that the city has to offer. </p>

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<p>At some schools maybe, probably not at Barnard or other elites. No one is going to be impressed by a 30 ACT at the elite schools – they have plenty of students with better, and they are still looking at a good but undistinguished high school transcript and EC’s. </p>

<p>Also, it can hurt if there is a mismatch between SAT/ACT scores and school performance. </p>

<p>The question isn’t why they might turn her down. Rejection (or waitlist) is essentially the default decision for the vast majority of applicants to the elite schools. The schools turn down many well qualified applicants and the may accept some with comparatively weak academic qualifications overall because of a singular strength or talent. The question is what distinguishes one particular applicant from the others. </p>

<p>If the OP’s daughter really has her heart set on the elite colleges, then it might be worthwhile for her to work with a college counselor. Again, the goal should not be to change who she is, but a counselor might help her to better identify and highlight areas of strength as well as to identify schools that are likely to value those qualities. </p>

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<p>If she wants to be in or near NYC, how about Fordham? (It is on the places where Mormons are comfortable list, too)</p>

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<p>Calmom, you’re taking my quotes out of context. </p>

<p>Again, I’m sorry I suggested Barnard. I hope we can drop it, as you suggested. :slight_smile: </p>

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<p>I’m trying to focus on elite admissions in general. It’s not your posts per se – it is the misconception that a higher SAT or ACT score will give a significant boost to an applicant without other distinguishing factors. Others have suggested similar strategies. The elites have applicant pools filled with valedictorians and high scorers</p>

<p>Obviously a higher test score doesn’t hurt. But it won’t make an applicant stand out in a field of high scorers. </p>

<p>You really have to come back to: “what distinguishes this applicant from the others?” and " will this distinction be something that the college values". Or to put it another way, the college ad coms are not trying to pass judgment on the applicants, to decide one-by-one whether each is good enough to make the cut; they are trying to build a class, to bring in the appropriate balance of artists and scientists and philosophers, to have students who will enroll in classes in their various departments and participate in campus life in the appropriate and expected proportions. </p>

<p>Again, this is a dynamic that plays out with elite admissions – much less of an issue for college that accept a larger proportion of applicants. The OP’s daughter can easily be admitted to many excellent colleges. But her test scores are not going to be what gets her in to the more selective colleges. </p>

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<p>Calmom, I think for the most selective schools, every piece of the application package is critically important including test scores, and I think the unhooked applicant is well advised to shoot for AT LEAST the middle of the mid 50% of the test scores of the targeted school. Hence, my advice to the OP regarding a specific target score.</p>

<p>Consolation, Fordham is an excellent suggestion. Though run by the Jesuits they are open to students of all faiths. Our tour guide was jewish and she was 100% comfortable at Fordham.</p>

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<p>Actually, my daughter’s ACT score was 27, below the 50% range of several schools that accepted her – U of Chicago is another one, to get the focus off of just one school. But she was in the top 2% of her class and had attention-grabbing stuff to put in her apps. </p>

<p>I’m not here to argue. I’ve just been around long enough to get a feel for college admissions as well as to see the mistakes that are made over and over again on CC. All too often parents and students misjudge their chances at highly selective schools and end up attending their in-state safeties. I think that the OP’s daughter can and should apply to one or two reach schools that represent her heart’s desire – but she’s likely to have a lot more choices in the spring of her senior year if she also applies to a good set of mid-range schools. That is especially important if the family needs financial aid. </p>

<p>FWIW, Fordham was surprisingly generous with my d. for financial aid, though still falling short of meeting full need. </p>

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<p>calmom, congratulations on your daughter’s acceptances, that is fantastic, but I do think low test scores will generally bias an adcom’s initial review of an unhooked applicant no matter how “bright the beacon.” </p>

<p>Princeton’s former Dean of Admissions, Fred Hargadon, once told applicants that “the SAT is probably not as important as you think it is, but it is probably more important than we say it is.” </p>

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<p>I agree on focusing on schools in the 25-50 range. There are a number of good east coast schools (BC, Tufts, Fordham, NYU, Northeastern, George Washington, etc.) that offer fantastic programs in the majors your D is interested in.</p>