Have you visited Bucknell?
My daughter is an engineering major at SMU if you have any questions. The program is not huge but I believe ME is the largest discipline. The Lyle engineering school has great facilities (they bulldozed the engineering school buildings from when I was a student there and replaced them with 4 beautiful new buildings and labs). There is lots of support from Dallas / TX corporations as well as many opportunities for internships, etc. There are frequent career fairs and career services. Sounds like she is a very strong student and she should be in the running for decent scholarships from both the university and the engineering school (you would probably be looking at $35K or possibly much less - please don’t quote me on that, that is just a very rough estimate). My daughter has many other interests and also did not want a “tech” school. She was recently able to perform in a musical for majors and non-majors and had an absolute blast. She is involved in other campus organizations that do fun things for the university (big movie nights with food trucks, etc.) But, she is also found with her study groups in the engineering building building a robot or working through their coding homework too. From the way she talks, it sounds very collaborative and not cutthroat at all. She was well-prepared with high school AP classes so the work has been difficult but she has managed quite well. Class sizes have been 80 or much less so far. The campus is beautiful. I encourage you to at least visit if interested. Dallas is very easy to travel to and if you live on a Southwest airlines route, they fly to Love Field which is only an easy 10 minutes from campus.
@Gator88NE I figured that the Brown program is small. I’m pretty active in the professional societies/conferences in my field and none of the ivies are contributors to the body of knowledge - their students might very well choose different career paths.
Decide before you go any further about budget. If you are considering allowing her to apply ED to Brown, you must have run the numbers and found it is affordable? Just curious, how did you/she get so focused early on with such specific interests, need for research, etc.? You will find good opportunities at many schools, including private and public.
Brown has not been all that known for engineering but seems to have a good CS program. My H had to decide between CMU, Brown, and Yale and chose CMU. But times have changed and most schools are ramping up their STEM programs.
We visited Brown. It felt like a pretty significant step down from even state schools outside the top tier. Facilities wise, it was well behind Oregon State and Colorado State. Although decent, neither is a powerhouse. Will she get a decent education? Probably. Will the aerospace companies like Space X and Boeing be beating down the doors for Brown grads? Probably not. @HPuck35 would be a better judge than I though, as he hired for the industry.
Interestingly, we all really liked Providence, a lot, but felt Brown to be uninspiring and amoeboid. Some love it though.
We also visited the usual suspects, Bucknell and Lafayette, when we all thought it was possible to get well rounded liberal education and an engineering degree at the same time. It isn’t, short of going to Dartmouth to get a subpar 4 year engineering degree in 5 years. They both are way behind even the meager state schools when it comes to facilities and depth and breadth of curriculum.
In order to have a real sense of what’s possible facility and curriculum wise, she should visit some of the better programs, even a smaller one, like WPI. Then she can decide if she’s willing to give up what those types of programs offer for a cool school, but with lesser engineering, like Brown or Tufts.
@sevmom Sounds like your daughter is really enjoying her time at SMU. Thanks for the great info. I knew absolutely nothing about SMU, except that my daughter’s counselor told her to look into it because she thought my daughter would be in the running for one of their full scholarships. Her counselor also wants her to research Miami-OH. Brown is not at all “affordable”, but we are fortunate that we can make it work. It won’t be easy, but doable. I just don’t know that the staggering difference in cost is worth the happy feelings my daughter imagines she’ll have based on our visit there. One of her HS friends is currently a freshman in the Engineering program there and absolutely loves it!
@eyemgh You’re probably right that it is difficult to get an equal education in Engineering and the Liberal arts. I will definitely ask her to visit some more programs to see what she would be giving up. Thanks for the advice. That said, there is something to be said for one’s college experience. We don’t have any engineers in our family, so I may be wrong, but I believe that many people can find success in the field based on job performance after school and their drive in general. Although, it would be easier to land that first job with a degree from a well-regarded program.
@sevmom Also, I have no idea why she is focused on AE, but she’s been talking about it since 7th grade. I believe it began from a rocket building project the class had. Fortunately she has listened to the advice she’s been given from many over the past few years that she should earn a degree in the broader ME field and, if still interested, specialize in AE in a graduate program. Therefore she would like a school that is associated with AE so she may have opportunities to work on projects or research that could help her decide if she really enjoys the field.
@G8tr2mom , Your daughter sounds great!
Virginia Tech has both mechanical and aerospace. It is bigger than your daughter wants but it does have a living - learning community for women in engineering (Hypatia) that would provide a smaller, supportive environment.
I do think the fears of aerospace engineering being overly limiting are a bit overblown, both on this site and in the general public. Yes, mechanical engineering is broader in a sense, but if you want to work in aerospace, that’s a non-issue, and if you want to work in a different industry, aerospace engineers have a skill set that translates well to many other industries. The only question, and I’ve never seen real data on whether or not it is a legitimate concern, is whether some employers will discriminate against aerospace engineers even though they’re qualified (e.g. because they are afraid they are going to jump ship for an aerospace job at some point or because they don’t realize they are qualified). I know that many don’t, but some may.
Also, it seems like at least once a week there are people who come onto these boards and say they are looking for a program that checks three main boxes: strong engineering, small size, and diverse student body. The problem with this is that, in most cases, you can really only get two of those things. Sure, there are some exceptions, but they are few.
Consider, it takes a lot of resources to run an engineering program, and some of those resources just don’t make sense to expend if you are a smaller program with fewer students’ differential tuition to pay the costs. That breaks the stipulation for a small school/program. One way around this is to be a school that is primarily STEM, so it can be a small school but with a comparatively non-diverse student body. That breaks the stipulation for a diverse student body. The way around this is to just go all in on the small size and diverse population, but then there won’t likely be the resources for all the toys. That’s not to say that those programs are necessarily bad, but they will have a more narrow set of technical experiences possible for each student.
So in some ways, it’s usually a “pick two of the three” type situation.
@boneh3ad Great advice! I agree that it appears she will have to pick 2 of 3 and it seems that she’s willing to compromise “top” engineering for a smaller, less acclaimed, program where she feels more comfortable. Except for landing that first job, how much does that really hurt you? So many colleges have engineering programs but we all keep talking about the ones at the top of the rankings. But other people say STEM fields are in such high demand that where you go to school doesn’t matter; you’ll earn a decent living. I have zero experience in the engineering field and don’t know how to guide her. My gut tells me to ask her to try the large state program because it makes the most financial sense for me. But I also don’t want her to be miserable or take away opportunities from her.
What is the large state program and what support resources do they have, particularly for women in engineering ? Be sure to set a budget with her before applications are submitted, a budget that makes “financial sense” for you and your family.
Have you looked at GaTech? While a tech school, it is not really huge and they have the second ranked AE program behind MIT. My S has been impressed with his non-Tech classes there as they do offer other majors besides STEM.
Yea, Brown, as an Ivy, offers zero merit aid. Is $300,000 doable for your family.
For us, having saved a substantial amount, we could have swung that, if we had to. We made a decision though as a family to cap the net cost at $200,000. He focussed on state schools under that mark, mainly Western Undergraduate Exchange schools, and Cal Poly, not WUE, but with a net COA well under $200k, and privates known to offer good merit aid. We weren’t eligible for need based aid.
I’m glad we did that, because he’ll graduate with his masters, debt free, just before his 23rd birthday. The impact of joining the workforce debt free cannot be overstated.
The ranking (i.e. prestige) of an engineering program is primarily going to affect the sort of companies who actively recruit at a given school. The more highly regarded the program, the broader its recruiting reach will be. A top tier program in the Midwest is still going to be sending graduates in high numbers to the East and West Coasts as well as the Midwest because companies are going to recruit more heavily at these programs regardless of geography. Less known programs is going to have a more regional draw.
I like to use the example of Purdue (or similar schools), that have very strong national reputations and send their graduates everywhere, versus a place like Stevens Institute of Technology, which is a good school and is well-regarded in the Northeast but virtually unknown outside of the area. There aren’t likely a lot of California companies recruiting at Stevens but they certainly are at Purdue. If a student wants to stay in the Northeast for their first job, it probably makes no difference which school they pick. If they want a more national reach, it probably does.
Also a factor here is size. Consider that employers’ recruiting budgets are finite, so it makes more sense for them to fish in bigger ponds more heavily. Larger programs will tend to have more companies actively recruiting there purely due to numbers.
Also, please don’t skewer me over my choices of examples. I just picked two random schools that fit my point and have no particular affinity or animus toward either.
@boneh3ad - Stevens is well known where it counts, in the minds of engineering employers. I have had job interviews in Florida, New York, Georgia, California, Massachusetts, and several other states and all of the interviewing companies were well acquainted with Stevens. Many California employers recruit at Stevens, BTW.
boneh3ad summarizes the possible trade offs between the smaller engineering programs and the more diversified engineering options. You might consider the focus of your daughter’s interests in the non-STEM areas and select a school with the well developed engineering programs that can offer well developed options to integrate her interests in the humanities and in the social sciences. This is how you find your support group.
What interests does your daughter have outside of her major? Music, Art, History, Drama, Philosophy, Literature, Languages, government, other cultures, etc? In the heavily STEM directed schools, these studies are the watering holes where the STEM majors meet fellow students of like academic interests. If you like jazz, play jazz! If you want to act, act! These activities become even more important in a STEM environment. Nerds become performers!
Nerds can rise above their stereotypical role. The Chemical Engineers lost a very good student to “South Park” after graduation. She had caught the drama bug while attending the STEM school. After graduation she spent years as a waitress before writing the script that got her into South Park ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Pimental).
The Electrical Engineers lost a freshly minted PhD to “Crossover” music. DON’T click on the advertisements and you can hear this engineer’s vocals @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWXhBbrceu4.
These people did not fail their profession. They discovered and grew even though they were in a STEM school. Yes, they are interested in growth and discovery too.
This same school has a very rich history in aeronautical engineering including Robert H Goddard @ https://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/about/history/dr_goddard.html, Richard T Whitcomb @ https://www.nasa.gov/langley/hall-of-honor/richard-t-whitcomb, and Dorothea C Wong @ https://www.wpi.edu/sites/default/files/docs/Offices/…/_Dorothea_Wong92.pdf. The University president is a former Senior NASA official (@ https://www.wpi.edu/offices/president/about)
See Aerospace related research @ https://www.wpi.edu/academics/departments/aerospace-engineering/research
The caliber and range of interests available outside of class at MIT, CMU, RPI and WPI are very broad, but students need to find each other. Clubs and activities are the vehicles for doing this. Support systems count!
Although sometimes described as “drinking from a fire hose,” the environment at WPI is based on group projects and teamwork, not individual competition. Co-operation is a necessary part of the process. See https://www.wpi.edu/project-based-learning/wpi-plan
WPI '67
@retiredfarmer - So studying a STEM major in a technological university (“STEM school” - I prefer the university nomenclature, since that is what it really is) is an impediment to “discovery and growth”? All ABET accredited engineering schools have a significant humanities and liberal arts curriculum in addition to the major course of study. Stevens for example was the first technological university in America with a dedicated Humanities department (which is now a separate College of Arts and Letters under the university mantle - originally modeled after the European “Belles Lettres” curriculum that was considered at that time to be a hallmark of an educated person). The vast majority of engineering schools have fine humanities programs. One doesn’t have to major in them to “grow”. Engineering because of many prerequisite, sequence-dependent courses in a wide variety of subjects, has unfortunately little room in the four year curriculum to have a dedicated liberal arts major in addition to engineering. Nonetheless, many engineering/STEM students can diversify to non-STEM subjects without overburdening themselves. The myth of not being able to obtain a good diverse background in arts and letters subjects unless one attends a large university where engineering/STEM isn’t the primary focus is just that, a myth. I have a PhD in Engineering Physics and EE, and also speak three languages, play rock guitar, electric bass, and classical organ, and have tutored English as a Second Language for new immigrants to the US. I’d say that’s an example of a diverse background.
In post #1 OP posted “She definitely preferred the varying personality types and academic interests at Brown.”
While I agree with #38 that engineers are not all identical or mono-themed, I nevertheless agree with post #1.
I attended a university. If one were to do a personality or interest profile test on the engineering students at that university, when I attended, , and then another on the arts & sciences students there, I believe there would be a significant difference in the results, overall. With the arts & sciences group creating a wider standard deviation.
It seems reasonable to me, based on my own experiences, that if somebody prefers varying personality types and academic interests they will tend to get more of that a university than at a tech college. Most of the time. Which is the social environment that OP says her daughter prefers.
Again this does not mean that all engineers are identical clones of each other. Or that you can’t learn anything outside of engineering at a tech college.