<p>Well, TutuTaxi, fit is certainly important--not every place is right for everyone, of course. I don't know if it is a viable option, but the best way to know this is to visit the colleges, or at least the "types" of colleges. As I mentioned earlier, coming from a family that is...not easily intimidated, to say the least :), I can't imagine being bothered by a few snobs, but I realize that not everyone is like this. I still stick by the consensus here--that there is a place for everyone at these schools--but I can understand why you might be concerned about culture shock for your daughter. Visting might be quite important in this case...I think it is a good idea anyway, but since your daughter is shy and is coming from perhaps a more isolated enviornment, I think that visiting would be very helpful in finding a place where your daughter can be happy.</p>
<p>I don't actually go to any of the aforementioned schools (I am right near a comparable one, though), but I always considered my family to be squarely middle class until I actually got to college. And it was there I learned that people who made $40-$60k more than my parents also considered themselves to be squarely middle class, which left me wondering what the hell I was, then. It's not that anyone makes an open issue of it or anything (that's saved for people who go to "lesser" schools), it's just that I think the idea that what's normal for you is not normal for everyone else doesn't ever really click. </p>
<p>Stuff like...your higher-income friends will be understanding if you don't have enough money to go to the expensive restaurant and want to go to the cheaper one as well, but there's still a good chance that they think you "don't have the money" because you just haven't asked your parents for any more lately. The idea that some people don't have parents who just blindly drop fun money into their bank account when they run out and ask for more simply doesn't occur to them, unless it only does because their parents could do such a thing but make a point of refusing to. It can be a bit unnerving, especially when they sit around and say things like, but my parents bought me a used Mercedes, not a new one, we're definitely not rich. People always seem to think that if you're not of the affluent prep-school variety you must be low-income...it's like the area in between doesn't exist. But I think it's pretty much an unavoidable situation unless you choose to go to the local state university branch, or something. Just takes a bit of getting used to.</p>
<p>My daughter is at Barnard. This culture clash between middle class kids and the very rich is a very real issue -- however, I don't think it has much of an impact on the student's ability to adjust or make friends on campus. There are just some kids who happen to be both wealthy and snobbish, and who flaunt their wealth - but I don't think they dominate the social scene or have much influence on others. They are not mean or deliberately exclusive, but they may be disdainful or condescending toward a kid who isn't wearing clothes with the right designer label or shopping at the right stores; or they may be simply clueless about the budgetary concerns and inadvertently inconsiderate when they give invitations and plan activities. </p>
<p>Please note that I said <em>some</em>. I don't think it's "most* -- and I don't think the snooty attitude is pervasive -- but it does exist. </p>
<p>It also works both ways. That is, the well-off kids may be perfectly friendly, but simply have very different interests -- my daughter is not going to spend much time socializing with someone whose habits and activities are too expensive. </p>
<p>This certainly is not a universal problem -- there are plenty of rich kids who are neither snobbish nor inclined toward expensive off-campus activities, and there are plenty of kids on campus from moderate income families. It's simply that there is a significant group of students who come from a very different background and with a certain segment, the social divide is too wide simply based on personal habits and assumptions. There also happens to be a big social divide between my daughter and kids who like to drink heavily and frequent frat parties; or kids who are heavily involved in athletics. Different kids with different interests end up moving in different social circles; they choose their own friends accordingly. </p>
<p>I don't think this should deter your daughter or anyone else from attending an Ivy -- but I do think it is something that is very legitimate to think about and to be prepared for. I don't think it's a big problem for my daughter, but I do think it is a source of annoyance at times.</p>
<p>
This is exactly the complaint my daughter has voiced -- it's not that they are rich, it's that they see my daughter as poor.</p>
<p>Can people stop with the "right prep school background" stuff? I'm a middle class kid from one of those where there were a lot just like me! I'm also going to Dartmouth next year without a worry in the world about being middle class there.</p>
<p>Fiskelove, my daughter goes to school with and is very close friends with students from families with great, great wealth. Not only expensive cars and simply incredible homes, but second and third homes in foreign countries, vacations around the world, etc. </p>
<p>I got sort of a clue of what I was in for when I delivered her to college freshman year. I stayed in a very nice hotel near the campus; my room was $400 a night and I had one of the smaller, less expensive rooms. When I checked out, I asked the reception desk if parents from the college represented a good part of their business, etc. The response was not only parents but sometimes students, too. It turns out that one very wealthy father did not want his son living in the dorms, and being from out of state did not want to buy property in the area, so, he asked the hotel if he could reserve a suite in the hotel for his son for the ENTIRE school year regardless of cost, and he also wanted to leave a retainer so that his son could order as much room service as he wanted, have a maid twice a day, laundry service, etc.</p>
<p>The hotel said no, they didn't want to do that, but, to have that much money is incredible - anyway, to answer your question, fitting in, making lots and lots of wonderful friends at both extremes of the financial scale has not been a problem for my daughter. </p>
<p>I think time is more a determinant than money - I think it's more common for a student to decline to attend an event or social opportunity because of papers due, the need to study etc. rather than decline because of limited funds. </p>
<p>I did have an entirely different take on it for her high school though - turned down a school where it seemed 100% of the student body was very wealthy; the school's idea of a field trip was study in Europe, etc., and I just thought that my daughter might be challenged to make close friends. College is an entirely different thing though...</p>
<p>Calmom, as both of your children were negatively aware of wealthy kids at the colleges they attended, I can't help but wonder if they are the ones that are class conscious.</p>
<p>I think part of the issue is location. In NYC, it's going to more of an issue whether or not someone has much money. In Hanover, it's just not as noticeable.</p>
<p>I wouldn't make that assumption Suze...I would never accuse you or anyone of being a snob just because they attended a prep school and/or were fabulously wealthy, but that doesn't mean that snobby rich kids don't exist. To be quite frank, from the comments that many prep school kids (not you! just some kids from tony schools in general) make, it is sometimes clear that these kids DO think that being rich makes them the salt of the earth. It is obvious that these kids (again, not by any means all prep school kids) think that anyone who attends a public school is second class. </p>
<p>I understand that there are kids who are on scholarship and the like at tony prep schools (the kind we are talking about here), but it would take some hard evidence before I would believe that this is the majority of the students at $30,000+/yr prep schools. You are not "middle class" if you can afford this amount for full tuition. I would classify my family as pretty high upper middle class, and we could only afford this if I were an only child. </p>
<p>To bring this back on topic, I would never deny that there will be some snobby kids at these schools, and no, you are probably not going to be best friends with such snobs, but there is certainly room for true middle and lower class students. It always pays to remember that a) wealth does not a snob make, b) a large percentage, even if not always a majority, of the class at such schools is not well off enough to afford the sticker price of the school, and c) you can't let the snobs have their way! Less wealthy students are at least as deserving (usually more so) than the snobs, and it would be a real shame to allow such people to get in your way.</p>
<p>D is at Amherst and I am a single mom school teacher. She doesn't feel at all left out. Has made friends of all wealth categories. Sure she said there are a few popped collars, but even they don't snub anyone. It's the common interests that seem to bond the kids, and not having a car doesn't matter one iota, although she would like to have one to make it a bit more easy for her, but riding the bus never hurt anyone, and none (even the rich) of her friends has a car, either. This year, when I couldn't afford to go to Parent's Weekend, the parents of her friends that did (and they could certainly afford it) took all the girls out to eat. Last year, I splurged and went, and there were 9 girls and only 3 sets of parent, one dad and me. And we all had a wonderful conversation together - the common bond - we all loved our children and wanted them to be happy. It didn't matter that I was a schoolteacher, and others were middle class, and others quite wealthy. D was one of the few true FA recipients, and it didn't matter to anyone at the table. In fact, D is going to visit one of her friends in NY over Spring Break.</p>
<p>I think it is important that as parents we not project our own insecurities about this on our kids. My parents were flat broke when I went to college and I had huge loans in the end as a result. My roommates in college all had parents who were affluent doctors, professors, trust funds babies and such who had weathered the recession much more comfortably. My parents would NEVER have considered suggesting I attend a college based on where we were financially(so long as basic costs could be met somehow) and the potential upset or discomfort it might have caused me to not be able to go to the Bahamas on spring break as my classmates did- or to not fit in with them since I did not have designer this and that. These universities are large enough to have kids from diverse backgrounds. Articulate to your children your confidence in them by letting them face the challenge without your baggage of worry.</p>
<p>No accusation, just said I was wondering. Post after post of people saying money doesn't seem to matter to their kids, and one mom has 2 kids who felt it did at 2 different colleges. Wouldn't you wonder?</p>
<p>All I can say is I spent 4 years at the nation's most infamous prep school and not only did my lack of wealth not matter, but I marvel at the generosity of my wealthy classmates and their families. Kids who couldn't afford to go home for breaks always were welcomed at their homes. Need a summer job, just find a kid with a parent in your industry of interest. No cash for Pizza? Whoever had cash paid. I could go on and on....</p>
<p>My experience. They offered me a campus job. At that point, they still had sit-down dinners four nights a week. I was expected to wear a little white coat, and serve dinner to my roommates. That lasted about three weeks. I ended up working in BOTH college bookstores to make ends meet.</p>
<p>Folks would order pizza in every night. I almost never had any cash to put into the kitty. After awhile, it made me feel awful (despite others' generosity), and I would simply absent myself when the pizza arrived. </p>
<p>No one ever wanted to talk about class issues back then - they were simply assumed. I ended up finding a group of roommates from similar class backgrounds, and we cocooned. There's no question it was noticeable - for the students who had cars, for the majority it was BMWs. My roommate had a '61 Chrysler, and we were so happy when he got wheels! No one ever talked about class issues, but they were very palpable. Now I have friends who hold workshops exploring class issues on campus around the country, and their work is growing rapidly:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.classactionnet.org/%5B/url%5D">http://www.classactionnet.org/</a></p>
<p>I just wish they were there when I was.</p>
<p>So...I was never really comfortable. And you know what? I learned from that, and, in fact, my understanding of the way wealthy people carry themselves in the world, and the things they are able to do in the world, was the single most important thing I learned in college. I watched as I saw folks operate in the world as if it was their oyster, and that they could do anything, and I figured out that I wanted to figure out how to be like that, but without the money. I wanted to travel, I wanted to learn languages, I wanted to feel at home in other places abroad, I wanted to be involved in a big way in charitable ventures, I wanted to feel comfortable in whatever environment I walked into and feel like I could make a difference.</p>
<p>And you know what? It worked! I was able to accomplish all of this, and I feel strongly that I owe this to all my wealthy fellow students around whom I felt distinctly uncomfortable. And to my college, I am extremely grateful for the opportunity they gave me. And now I am seeing the same thing happen for my d., and it gives me very great pleasure indeed.</p>
<p>I am sure that that is true, Suze, and that is my general opinion, anyways. There are snobs at every income level--plenty of poor people look down on other poor people for whatever reason. Though I am certainly not rich in the large sense of the word, my family falls into the upper income bracket at my school, and I certainly don't go around bragging about the luxuries that I have that other kids don't. I would imagine that this is probably the norm rather than the exception.</p>
<p>I cross posted with Mini, but I think that her experience just proves what I already believed: a healthy dose of confidence can take you just as far in life as a rich family, and no snob need ever be an impediment to you.</p>
<p>Mini, my mother was poor and black at an ivy probably about the time you were in college. She made great friends with people of wealth and people with backgrounds similar to her own. So many are in our lives still. I do wonder if what anitaw says comes into play. In my house, being less wealthy than some friends certainly didn't make us feel inferior.</p>
<p>I NEVER felt inferior. I felt uncomfortable. There is a big difference. And I have hobnobbed with more than my share of millionaires since, and I believe my ability to do so grew out of my college experience.</p>
<p>(I know from my African-American friends that race cuts across class issues in rather different ways - and I do have stories to tell. But it is my belief - based on experience - that anyone who believes that class doesn't play a role on elite college campuses is either blind or deliberately obtuse. And I think it SHOULD - that is a major part of the learning to be had.)</p>
<p>Well, I must say, the sensitivity police were truly asleep asking one student to serve others. Did you volunteer for that job?</p>
<p>My mom does not at all say her race did not play a role. She speaks of the fascination of many of her classmates in finding out what she was about. My mother is a big, commanding personality. She became president of her class.</p>
<p>Ejr1 raised a good point about the parents of the other students - when they visit the college, it seems they're always taking my daughter and others out to dinner, including everyone in activities, and paying for all the students to eat or attend an activity or whatever. </p>
<p>In one situation, a seriously financially challenged student was moving off campus with a very wealthy student - they'd become very, very good friends and wanted to be roommates off campus. The parents of the very wealthy student purchased all the furniture for the off campus home, including the bedroom furniture for the very poor roommate.</p>
<p>My son is at Duke and we are not mansion dwellers. He loves, loves, loves, Duke. He has friends on scholarships and others who are very wealthy. No one talks about their wealth. They may have more expensive clothes and cars, but it has not been a problem at all. Everyone is very friendly and there is a cooperative spirit. There is never a problem getting a ride to the airport or getting a ride to the store. When we visited at parent weekend, I couldn't tell who was the CEO kid and who was the scholarship student. All the parents I talked with were very friendly as well.</p>
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Well, I must say, the sensitivity police were truly asleep asking one student to serve others.
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Why? Is there something demeaning about food service employment? Why is that any different from checking out your classmates purchases at the bookstore? Both are honest ways to earn $$. By the way, in the free market world, the waiter out earns the cashier.</p>