Middle Class at Dartmouth-Duke-Yale

Parents Forum
61

<p>Calmom, I did not say there was anything WRONG with your children, I asked if they might be class conscious. I would think it would be very hard not be be class conscious if your parents are. IMO people who pose these questions or respond that they have had class issues, are class conscious. Not saying it's a disease, just a fact.</p>

<p>Unluess you move to a housing project and never leave, all of your life you'll deal with those who have more and those who have less. I bristle at the idea of "finding your level." Hopefully everyone will try to achieve a rich, full life by having friendships with a wide range of people.</p>

62

<p>I was not trying to put anyone on the defensive and should clarify I meant ignorant as in not having knowledge of.</p>

<p>I grew up in a family that believes anyone rich got that way dishonestly and usually by ripping off the poor. I have relatives who talk behind my back about my relative wealth and my kids who go to snooty schools. They are certain their down to earth behavior in front of them is a put on.</p>

<p>It took me some time at Harvard to let my guard down and make friends with the dreaded money folks.</p>

63

<p>By "finding their level" I mean finding activities that are affordable, not that people have to hang out with those from the same economic level. Though that does tend to happen somewhat because of the affordability issue.</p>

<p>And if someone says "Can't play with the big boys, huh?" that sends a message that poor people aren't wanted. If wealthy people are involved in activities that the poor can't afford, (and there is nothing wrong with that) then the poor will be excluded. Not deliberately, but they will just naturally have less contact with wealthier students because they don't share those activities.</p>

64

<p>Calmom, I can see that perhaps my earlier post was not clear, but I never intended to say that your daughter's frustruation over not being able to resell her books was not valid or understandable. I can certainly understand that being on a very tight budget, amongst people who are not, would often make one frusturated and/or uncomfortable. My intention with my post was really to pose the question "How should wealthier students act?" I don't mean this question in a snippy way, either--I really want to know what people think. I can only refer to myself as an example, but I know that I would not have issues with a student who was on a tight budget, nor would I try to silence their complaints (for lack of a better word--not trying to suggest that their feelings were invalid or whiny). I would think that many wealthier student's are similarly not so out of touch with concerns like these, but I fully concede that this may be an incorrect assumption.</p>

<p>I suppose my general feeling is that, yes, at a top flight college there will be many students who live at an income/class level above middle class. Undeniably, some of these students will be snobby or otherwise degrading to others not at their income/class level. But my feeling is--and many other posters seem to agree--that though it may not be a perfect situation, there are ample opportunities/relationships/places of comfort for a less well-off student, and most students will not be so rude/snobby/negatively class-conscious.</p>

65

<p>""How should wealthier students act?""</p>

<p>Why should they act any differently than they currently do? (other than being willing to join discussions about the impact of class on their education and the culture at large - which many are more than ready to do). It's part of what a really great education is about - and prestige colleges wouldn't be recruiting a bunch of lower income students to hobnob with their prime customers if they didn't think it is a good thing.</p>

66

<p>I don't think it's a "Mean Girls" type thing where the rich kids are evil and snub the poor kids, it's mainly just coming from different reference points. I've noticed a few comments about who ever had the pizza money paid and no one noticed if someone wasn't able to pay and I promise you the kid not paying notices. That's an old working class value and I don't doubt there are kids who just opt out of the situation which has social effects. </p>

<p>I think the OP's original question is a very natural concern. We want the right "fit" for our kids and want to avoid miserable phone calls from 3000 miles away that whatever school just isn't working out. I wouldn't think this is a dealbreaker of an issue but it is something to be aware of and discuss ahead of time. I'd guess it may be more of an issue at less elite private schools without economic diversity interests of any kind.</p>

67

<p>Wealth just isn't an issue at Dartmouth. People in fact "play down" wealth.</p>

68

<p>If you don't notice it, or talk about it, or decide to "play it down", it definitely IS an issue.</p>

69

<p>That's exactly it, Mini -- something that is <em>very</em> important to a person - the need to constantly be aware of money (or the lack thereof) -- is played down being unimportant. To mention it is to be derided as being "class conscious" -- it's like a restaurant menu that doesn't list the prices, because if you have to ask, you don't belong there. It's kind of a don't ask, don't tell attitude that leaves those with limited finances feeling even more isolated and at the fringes.</p>

70

<p>I've heard balding men said that, if anyone says "hair doesn't matter" you can be sure they have a full head of hair.</p>

71

<p>but, Slipper, I know what you are saying, too. I had a friend in college who said his dad "sold string." Turns out (and nobody knew this until he was visited at home..which was a million dollar mansion) the "string" was that little string that connects the Lipton tea bag to its tag. He made a fortune inventing this idea and capitalizing upon it, along with many other businesses.</p>

72

<p>And so what is the solution to the class divide...constantly discussing it? I guess I just don't get it...why would less well-off students feel better if their financial situation was a constant source of discussion, or if wealthier students decided that they were going to start flaunting their money as flamboyantly as possible (the opposite of playing it down). Personal financial concerns aren't usually dinner table discussion. </p>

<p>I don't know...there are always people richer than oneself. A true middle class student may have (serious, at times) budget concerns, but they're not poor. Is it really that bothersome and uncomfortable to be in the company of people who do not have the same particular concerns as oneself? Are students really that unhappy if a budget-conscious fellow student mentions that they really need to sell their textbooks at the end of the semester or need to curb their entertainment expenses? </p>

<p>I think that there is always some discomfort over financial issues--money and privilege are sticky issues, a lot of the time. I still just don't see why a middle class student need feel isolated at a top-flight university.</p>

73

<p>
[quote]
I think that there is always some discomfort over financial issues--money and privilege are sticky issues, a lot of the time. I still just don't see why a middle class student need feel isolated at a top-flight university.

[/quote]
I agree. The common denominator is academic ability -- the kids at any selective college already share an important trait. They are all bright, and have something special to offer. My experience in life has been that intellectual interests and ability are more stratifying than income or assets.</p>

74

<p>Even really poor kids I know don't stress about money or find it stratisfying unless their parents shared the money stress with then from early on. I'm talking about kids in LA projects and ghettos that are sent to private schools from K on. One of the things we're are looking for in choosing children (and families) for the program is the attitude of the parents.</p>

75

<p>
[quote]
My experience in life has been that intellectual interests and ability are more stratifying than income or assets.

[/quote]

I agree with you here. Also though son had never been around anyone who had attended a prep school and is now in college with many--it's not their income level that sometimes intimidates him--it's that he feels they are better prepared academically than he was and also a little more "sure of themselves" socially. As far as money issues (he does not attend one of the schools mentioned in OP) he has found that all depends on the individual. Some students he has found out live in 3 story penthouses in NYC and have 2 other homes while living at school very frugally. Others he has seen waste money on cab fares, dining out, etc and yet receive financial aid. He contends he would never try to guess a student's family income level by their actions.</p>

76

<p>Kirmum, how do you expect a kid NOT to stress about money when they have to earn all their expenses? Don't you think that if you were trying to live off of a work-study job that paid $200/month that you would find it just a little bit stressful when you found out that the text book in a required class cost $150?</p>

<p>I don't know about little kids. My kids were aware when money was tight because it directly impacted them. There were things they wanted and could not have because we didn't have the money. Whether that caused <em>stress</em>, I don't know. It certainly was something that they were aware of and always had to be aware of. I have a feeling that the "poor" kids that you know are keenly aware of the differences in their lives and the lives of kids from richer families, if they are in a situation where they able to be exposed to it. I remember my daughter being 6 years old and coming home from play dates with friends that according to her were extremely "rich" and had enormous homes -- they weren't that rich, just what the CC crowd would call "middle class" -- and we weren't poor, we're just what the US census calls "middle class" -- but our house is 1100 sq. feet and I certainly understood why a 3500 sq. foot home with matching furniture in all the rooms would seem pretty extraordinary in the eyes of a 6 year old. And I'm quite sure that if the experience of the "poor" kids you work with is that the best meals they ever get are the ones served to them in the school cafeteria, then they are very much aware of their situation.</p>

77

<p>Been there, done that Calmom, only work study didn't pay as much back then. </p>

<p>Yes, of course the children our group works with are aware that others live differently and other kids are better off than they are financially, they just have not let it effect friendships.</p>

<p>The thing I'll add as I think about this is maybe the consideration should not be whether there will be rich snobs at a school, but perhaps a fair consideration would be can my child be financially comfortable at a school with the resources the parent, the child and aid total.</p>

78

<p>"And so what is the solution to the class divide...constantly discussing it?"</p>

<p>There is no "solution" - and I wouldn't at all suggest "constantly discussing it". And it doesn't have to affect their friendships. But many of the posters have made it clear that it isn't discussed AT ALL, and frankly I find that (if true) a sorry statement on the education they or their children are receiving. For many "full-freight" students at top tier colleges and universities, this may be the only time in their lives that they will have daily contact with folks of other class backgrounds and experience, and they lose out greatly when they don't take the opportunity to explore it. These institutions wouldn't be putting such a heavy emphasis on sprinkling such diversity in with the full-freighters if they didn't think it worthwhile to explore, even if they hadn't figured out how to do it, like my friends at Class Action, in setting up groups at colleges and universities, have (and to help deepen friendships across class lines). </p>

<p>If you want to see a clear example of what happens when one doesn't discuss and explore, I have only to hold out the example of John Kerry in the last election. When he was holding a televised forum in Minneapolis last year, a middle-aged woman got up and asked him (I'm paraphrasing), "Mr. Kerry, I like all or most of your positions on the issues, and you present yourself very well. But we are true middle class folks and I live in a small house just outside of Minneapolis. My husband was laid off from the company he worked for for 20 years two years ago, and hasn't been able to find another job since. I am employed, but my company doesn't provide health insurance, and we are always deathly afraid that the kids (or one of the two of us) will get sick or be in an accident. My older son is a second year student in college, but we really can no longer afford the tuition and so he is going deeper and deeper into debt, and my younger one is a junior in high school. So my question is this: how can I really know that you understand what life is like for us, so that you'll know the right thing to do?"</p>

<p>Kerry paused for a long time. You could see the wheels turning...and perhaps a little bit of fear on his face. And then out came, "Well, when I was in Vietnam...."</p>

<p>And that's it, over the 35 years since he'd graduated from Yale, the only serious contact he'd had with folks not of own his social/economic class were his mates in Vietnam. Except he had had other contacts. He'd been a district attorney for several years, and spent most of every waking hour figuring out how to lock up people from social/economic classes to which he didn't belong. He just didn't have that kind of contact once he had left Yale, and his Yale education had clearly and unequivocally failed him. </p>

<p>As I've already stated, I don't think "discomfort" is necessarily a bad thing - it can be source of great learning. It could be a source of even greater learning if it was accepted as s reasonable and educational subject of discussion and exploration.</p>

<p>"Money does NOT enter into their everyday decision-making process, he was discovering, whereas he (middle class) always factored it in to his choices."</p>

<p>He got it exactly. When you've got access to wealth, the world is your oyster! That's the way the world works, and will continue to, and I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon. I learned so much by observing that attitude, and sought to find ways (without the wealth) to share it. He broke the code. But it is odd, isn't it, that the code wasn't even discussed.</p>

79

<p>You've changed the subject Kirmum. I responded to your statement, "really poor kids I know don't stress about money". You said absolutely nothing about forming friendships -- it was all about the "attitude of the parents". (Back to the blame-shifting gambit and invalidation of the underlying feelings -- now its all the fault of the poor parents who don't take action to shield their kids from their own worries about money). I notice you also commented on how important it was for you to choose the parents with the right attitude for the program.</p>

<p>So yeah, you create an artificial environment, starting by excluding the types of people who don't meet your definition of harboring the right attitude, and you are going to see what you want to see.</p>

80

<p>Okay mini, I understand what you are saying a bit better now. My question came out a bit more inflammatory than I wished, but you understood my intentions. I agree that if you leave college--any college--as thoughtless about class issues as Kerry seemed to be in that instance, then you really are missing a large part of your education. It's interesting to me, because though I will be a full-freighter, I have always attended public schools with economic (and racial, and religious) diversity, so I guess I never considered the fact that some kids really haven't had conversations with people who have money worries. Not to wax too rhapsodic about my HS, but for all it's faults, my family does really appreciate the fact that it is committed to taking care of kids who don't have the most money and/or aren't headed to a top college--they deserve as much attention as I do. </p>

<p>I will add, though, that it is not just wealthy upper class and upper middle class kids who can be insensitive and unsympathetic to less wealthy fellow students. I know a lot of kids that I would put in the middle to sometimes upper middle class range (that definition is so loose...hard to pin exactly) who are very unsympathetic to the difficulties of being poor--for as smart as they are, they just don't seem to comprehend how difficult it is to really really struggle financially.</p>