Middle Class at Dartmouth-Duke-Yale

Parents Forum
101

<p>


With all due respect, Marite -- I haven't either. But I don't happen to be living on campus with my kids, so I just have to take their words for it when they mention various issues. Obviously if your son is ignoring the mail from frats and final clubs, it isn't something that bugs him and he isn't likely to mention it. I never said that this stuff dominates at any campus -- I just said that its there. I hear about it because my daughter talks a lot, at a speed of about a million words per minute. This is just one of those things that pops up from time to time, usually in the form of some sort of grip or anecdote, and based upon word volume, it has about a 1% significance to my d's life. </p>

<p>It's like racism. Do you really think that there is any campus where racism doesn't exist? It tends to be hidden, but there are going to be some people who are racist wherever you go --and the kids on campus who are going to be most sensitive to subtle racism are those who are themselves the object of the race prejudice. You might see people of all races walking along the sidewalk in a city and see no hint whatsoever of racism - whereas a black man walking along might notice when a white woman clutches her purse more tightly when she sees him, and he might notice on a rainy day when a cab passes him by but stops for a white person. So whereas in your eyes you might see a very diverse scene where everyone is getting along fine, the guy who can't get a cab is going to see it differently.</p>

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<p>I think it is incredible that parents think class issues don't exist for their kids when they exist for adults.</p>

<p>The kids are human beings. Of course, class issues exist.</p>

<p>I like calmom's post #101.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/film/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/film/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>If you have real player and click on the circle at the right (Now 50% more), then fast forward to 3:58 of the sample trailer, you will see that class issues exist and some people are oblivious.</p>

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<p>calmom:
With all due respect, I don't know why you are writing that post. to me.
I am only reporting what I--me, myself, moi, no other--have experienced. I was not challenging you, just sharing my own experience. Nor was I suggesting that class issues don't exist. Au contraire. So what's riling you?</p>

<p>dstark:
Yes, class issues do exist. That is what I was trying to convey in my post. The discomfort of students who are on finaid often arises from the unthinking behavior of students and profs, not necessarily deliberate meanness. That I have personally not seen it does not mean it does not exist, however.</p>

<p>For students on finaid who come from far away, holidays can present a real problem. My S has a suitemate in that situation. Luckily, every time, friends have invited him home. I once raised the issue with a Harvard dean about the expenses connected with ECs for low-income students. He acknowledged that was a problem. That was about ten years ago; I don't know whether anything has been done since.</p>

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<p>Hanna, the context might be an expression of disapproval when a group of girls are talking about their favorite places to talk (Nordstroms, etc.), and my daughter volunteers that she like to go to Forever 21 (trendy but cheap) and the reaction is disapproval. My daughter had a difficult time her first semester because just about everything that came out of her mouth turned out to be some sort of conversation-stopping, eye-roll-producing faux pas. </p>

<p>There are a lot of lines of social demarcation at her school. Last semester I received mail for an optional laundry service available to dorm students -- for $$$ I could have arranged it so that all year long my daughter's laundry would be picked up weekly and returned to her all neatly folded. Obviously I didn't buy it. I don't think it's the kind of thing that kids on financial aid sign up for. </p>

<p>NY is full of restaurants, and there are expensive places to eat near campus, and there are cheap places. Somehow the expensive places have plenty of customers, even though all CC parents have kids who go to colleges where all the rich students are considerate and would never dream of suggesting a place that everyone in the group couldn't afford. </p>

<p>There are two very reliable ways of getting around town in New York: taxis and the subway. I'm sure that the most affluent kids rely mostly on cabs -- and kids without much money probably walk or take the subway most of the time. </p>

<p>There are a lot of subtle way that elitism can show through. I'm giving an example here, not a real incident - but if some kids wanted to go downtown, and one said, "let's take the subway", and another said that they didn't want to because the subways were too dirty and crowded -- that could be interpreted as a put-down of the subway user. Even if the kid who insists on the cab picks up the tab for everyone, the negative opinion of the subway (and therefore subway-riders) was expressed. If one person is always expressing negative opinions of the places you frequent and the means of transportation you use to get there, you probably wouldn't want to hang around that person. The message would get conveyed that you live in different worlds -- and you would gravitate towards people who enjoy sharing in the lifestyle you can afford.</p>

105

<p>Everything calmom writes hits a note with me. I only have experience with the school I went to, and I witnessed wealthy kids saying and doing the things she says her daughter experiences. Some do it innocently, others are snobby about it, some joke about it. Some rich kids are brought up to value money, and spend it frugally, and others aren't. I learned that it's tough to make generalizations, because kids and families with money are not all alike.</p>

<p>I'll never forget going out to eat one night before the dining halls were open. My friend was probably the poorest student I knew, and all she ordered was a side salad -- that was 30 years ago, so maybe it cost 50 cents. She insisted she wasn't hungry. Later she told me all she had was 75 cents in her pocketbook and her bank account after buying books. I'm sure she felt mortified by the whole experience, and we really didn't understand how our dinner plans made her life difficult.</p>

<p>Most of the people I socialized with I would describe as being middle class. While I was aware of the very affluent (like my dorm-room neighbor, who couldn't decide which color turtleneck to buy, so she bought every color -- all 30 of them), most students really did seem to fall in the middle. I do wonder if the middle at the selective schools has shrunk. My only sense that it has is a student I interviewed for the Ivy I went to, who was accepted and went. She was extremely poor (her parents were unemployed and she had to send money home so they could buy food), and she told me that she had to hang out with kids in her socio-economic class because she simply could not afford to be with the wealthy kids, who ate out at restaurants and went to movies, etc.</p>

<p>I'm sorry, calmom, that your daughter has to deal with kids like that, although I am also glad that she seems to be taking in somewhat in stride. I hope that at least some of them are learning something from her.</p>

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<p>S says they have a simple rule. They determine how little any student can spend on an evening out (it is not just kids with fewer resources, but can be a temporary condition) and agree that they all will only spend that amount. He said it makes for some fun and at times unexpected adventures. </p>

<p>There are differences from school to school. Wearing his typical t-shirt and jeans attire at an Ivy he was attending, a student walked right up to him and said, "You should consider spending more on clothes." Thereafter, S noticed that clothes were a big deal on that particular campus. Collars-up, as he used to say while there.</p>

107

<p>"I do wonder if the middle at the selective schools has shrunk."</p>

<p>Statistically, (for the few schools I have real data for), the prestige colleges are less economically diverse than they were 25 years ago. And the middle and upper middle quntiles ($40k-$92k) are very much a vanishing breed, except for athletes.</p>

108

<p>Idad brings up a good point about how not having money (or not spending it) can be temporary. For a few months when I started college I was under 18. For that reason, I couldn't find a bank at which I could open a checking account or get a debit card for a while. There were days when I didn't do laundry because I honestly did not have enough quarters in my current possession, since all of my (rather significant) earnings were stuck at a bank at home. There are a lot of people who cut their spending once they decide to study abroad or get an unpaid internship or while waiting for the next paycheck. The richest kids aren't always the ones spending, and the poorer kids aren't always the most cost-sensitive. As always, of course, circumstances change through time. </p>

<p>It sounds as if some schools are worse than others, too. At my urban school, no one takes taxis. Except for splitting a cab with a couple other students home from the airport or after an event at night, I've never heard of students taking cabs. Most people take the bus or a shuttle to the airport before break, even. Most student entertainment is cheap and on campus, and if someone doesn't want to spend the money he/she can easily beg off. People decide not to go out all the time because of money or homework or other engagements. Everyone here buys used books, sells books after the quarter, shops for books online, and borrows from friends. Maybe my view of my school is wrong, but that's what I have seen.</p>

<p>In the beginning of the year a couple of my friends did seem frustrated or angry about financial differences at the school, but they didn't have any specific complaints. I think that for many people, college is one of the first times where people from different economic backgrounds are really brought together, all with intelligence as the common denominator. It's new for middle- or lower-class students who have always been around people of a similar economic state to suddenly be around kids who grew up with country clubs, dinner parties, cars, and vacations. I don't think there's much to do except for everyone to accept that people come from different circumstances. The poor may feel jealous or inferior, and the rich may feel ashamed or uncomfortable--maybe both will feel something different entirely. I don't know of any schools with the kind of flaunting and rudeness spoken about in this post, but overall I think most students on both sides are flexible, accepting, and willing to work out any issues.</p>

<p>I want to put out for discussion, though: how much should finances be avoided or actively discussed? Should a middle- or lower-class student avoid talking about her money problems with her friends? Should that student's friend avoid talking about the new house her parents are building or her spring break plans?</p>

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I think it is incredible that parents think class issues don't exist for their kids when they exist for adults.

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<p>I remember we used to work with this woman who grew up wealthy and was the widow of a football player (and still had a few dollars). I wasn't even making 20k a year and she made a comment that she did not knwo how anyone could live on under 65k a year. At the time, my other friend said "give me 65k a year and watch me." All I could do was laugh because the woman was a bit clueless because it had never been her experience so she didn't know any better (I did not look at it as a slight toward me). By the same token, we had another co-worker whose family's wealth would have made this woman look like a pauper, and she was the most laid back, non-discript , looked like you needed to loan her a few dollars until she got on her feet person.</p>

<p>Stark you are absolutely right and guess what most of these class issues are already being ingrained before our kids sets foot on a college campus. How many of you have kids that go to school in the burbs and are driving to school? Just look in your high school parking lot and you will probably see everything from clunkers to high end cars (i know we just want to put bobby and janie in a good car). Some are drving your cars (I know, we want to put janie in a good, car, we live far from the bust stop, etc.) and it doesn't negate the fact that there are "lower income" kids who are rolling up to school on the big cheese bus.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"let's take the subway", and another said that they didn't want to because the subways were too dirty and crowded -- that could be interpreted as a put-down of the subway user. Even if the kid who insists on the cab picks up the tab for everyone, the negative opinion of the subway (and therefore subway-riders) was expressed.

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<p>Calmom, </p>

<p>I am not trying to marginalize your D's experience but the truth is that the subways are dirty and crowded, but it also does not negate the fact that it also moves millions of people a day. Depending on where one is going since the # train runs all the way down town and the highway is a couple of blocks away, depending on where one is going and the time needed to get there it is faster (and more cost effective to take a cab. At the same time, depending on where one is going only a fool would take a cab and be stuck in traffic when mass transit can get you there quick fast and in a hurry. Mayor Mike is a multi billionare but it doesn't stop hime from getting on the number 6 train riding down to city hall.</p>

<p>I also think that going to school in NYC brings it own issues with it as even relatively "cheap" things can cost a lot of money in NYC and transportation is nto so much a class issue as much as it is a time saving issue.</p>

<p>For example I work in the west village 9 blocks from the subway that runs on the west side. Coming in to work, the walk does not bother me and it's something I do twice a day. However, there are days that I have to go to meetings at my company's main office in midtown on the east side. How do I get there, I take a cab. Not because I am being a snob, but by the time I walk 9 blocks to the subway, hop on the uptown train to times square, take the cross town shuttle train and then walk again once I get out of the subway, I am where I need to be in less than 10 minutes.</p>

<p>
[quote]
There are a lot of lines of social demarcation at her school. Last semester I received mail for an optional laundry service available to dorm students -- for $$$ I could have arranged it so that all year long my daughter's laundry would be picked up weekly and returned to her all neatly folded.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is something that is also an option at D's school. She would never sign up for it because she doesn't want strangers doing her laundry. None of her friends signed up for laundry service, because the service is inconvenient as once a week someone is picking up your laundry and dropping it off, haning it outside of your door. I think the person to most likely use the service are those who don't know how to do laundry not so much that doing laundry is beneath them and even them laundry service kids will get head shakes for not knowing how to do laundry and being less self sufficient.</p>

<p>I am no where near being rich (wouldn't even call my self solidly middle class) but I have also raised my kid not to be envious or too phased by other people's money because:</p>

<p>You can virtually have anything you want for monthly payments</p>

<p>Everything is not always what it seems to be</p>

<p>With 8 million people in NYC there is always going to be somebody who has more or less money than you have so there is no need about spinning your wheels in the mud worrying about it.</p>

<p>After last weeks postings about athletes at elite schools, I guess this is now our beef of the week.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And the middle and upper middle quntiles ($40k-$92k) are very much a vanishing breed, except for athletes.

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</p>

<p>why not then designate this bracket 'the gladiators' since they have been brought into the arena to entertain the patricians? Now I see why football stadiums borrow heavily from Roman architecture,.</p>

<p>Sybbie, another commonsense compassionate balanced contribution. Will you please just cut it out!</p>

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<p>Sybbie, you just don't get the point of what I was trying to say. I was just giving examples. I was trying to make them up because if I got too specific in terms of describing real incidents, then it is very possible that it could get back to whoever was at the center of it. I SAID the subway thing was a made-up example -- I'm trying to come up with something analogous as an illustration. So if you want to argue about taxicabs or laundry, it isn't relevant. I am not talking about some kids having more money - I'm talking about behavior and attitudes of <em>some</em> kids who (a) have too much money and (b) are really obnoxious about it.</p>

<p>The only point of my subways and laundry post was to negate the claim that college is a great equalizer because everyone lives in the same dorm together under the same conditions. It just isn't true; they may be living in the same building but there is a lot of variance in lifestyle. </p>

<p>I'm rather tired of discussing it -- I have gotten PM's from people who are saying that I am echoing what they have heard from their kids. My daughter has gotten feedback from friends at other elite colleges, including Harvard, saying that they have run into the same thing.</p>

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<p>A simple example - vacation. Kids with the same economic and social background will often plan vacations together. The conversation will usually go like this, "Why don't you come to London, my dad has a flat there." Someone will then say, "We can then take the fast train over to Paris and stay at my mother's place for a few days before we go to Amsterdam." My friend's son is going on a such trip. They don't have an apartment or a house in Europe, so they are going to pick up the tap in Amsterdam. </p>

<p>My kids have been on both sides of the street. They have many friends from school that are a lot better off than us and friends that have less than we do. My kids have been taught to be tactful. They never say, "I can't go because I can't afford it." They say, "I can't go because I am busy." When they go out with friend's family for dinner(doesn't matter whether they are wealthy or poor), they don't order until their friend has ordered, and they are to order in that price range (many of their friends were ordering out of children's menu for the longest time, and my kids would come home hungary).</p>

<p>I was on full financial aid at a very elite/white school many years ago. Most of my friends had allowance and regular care packages from home. I worked 20+ hours a week so I could go out with my friends for very expensive dinners. I made sure I had a few sweaters and blazers that my friends had. It wasn't easy, but the whole experience also taught me a lot. I probably learned more outside of class room, which all became very handy later on in my life.</p>

<p>I think it is helpful to listen to our kids' experience and help them deal with it, instead of pretending it doesn't exist. If we think it is hard for us to handle, it must be doublely more difficult for kids. But this is also a good opportunity to teach them about people, money, personal diginity and self worth. Hopefully, a good education would teach our kids to be comfortable and confident in any environment.</p>

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<p>I would not be in the least surprised that there are huge class differences at Harvard and that they show. Isn't it the school that launched the Harvard Financial Aid Initiative while also attracting its share of children of billionnaires? By and large, however, the differences produce the kind of scenario that Sybbie describes, that is, surprise that anyone could live on one-third of what one's parents are making, or the kind of thoughtless behavior I witnessed and which, I am sure, is not uncommon.
Not so long ago, there was a thread on the Harvard board in which one student described his family as being middle-class: it was making $250k. The student was very surprised (and defensive) to be told that this was not a middle-class income.
In the Boston area, it is Boston University that is supposed to be the school with lots of wealthy foreign students with attitude. They're supposed to keep Newbury Street and the Boston night scene busy.
Class difference, however, is not confined to elite schools or even expensive ones. In fact, from what I've read, they are just as likely to happen at state universities such as 'Bama, as local wealthy families have a tradition of sending their offspring there instead of sending them away to elite schools. Texas A&M (not a state university) may be another such school, if what the Phantom Professor wrote in her blog is true: Porsches in the parking lot, Prada bags and shoes, condos for students, and so forth.</p>

<p>EDIT: Oldfort, my S has a close friend who is on full financial aid; he and the other suitemates make it a point not to go to places the friend cannot afford. But the friend is the preppiest-looking of the lot.</p>

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<p>I would never suggest class differences do not exist. My kids grew up in a town a world away from the lives of most of their classmates. They fully know the differences. What I describe is their experiences: at S's school, he knows who has tons of money and who doesn't, but it just doesnt have any meaning with his day to day existence. I have no idea if anyone ever questioned that his clothes come from Kohls, but he'd think it was hilarious if they did. As I also said, I think it's probably easier for boys.</p>

<p>At my D's school, again, lots of kids with money, but flaunting it, at least among the majority, and everyone she hung with, would be considered the height of bad behavior. You can't eliminate the actual monetary differences from one kid to another, but when everyone's in ripped jeans and faded old tee shirts, it's much less noticeable. Just as jetting off to Europe for spring break undoubteably happens (not in my kids' lives :)), but it would be considered the rude and insensitive to assume anyone can. It's not nicknamed PCU for nothing.</p>

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<p>Marite, I dare say the dorm parking lot at 'Bama, would illustrate your point quite well!</p>

<p>I answered the OP's question re Dartmouth, on the Dart forum. I have gotten the idea from a friend's daughter at Duke, that Duke may exhibit more class divides than Dartmouth because more kids do have cars on campus(that's a real visible sign, is it a clunker or a Yukon?), and inadvertently, because being in the South, if not of the South, there is a little more dressing up. Again, if you want to see cars and dressing up, come to Alabama on game day, or Auburn or Vandy.</p>

<p>Be careful to separate attitudes from reality. My kids went a high school that was not racially diverse, although ti was internationally diverse, but is very economically diverse. We purposefully raised them to think they were "poor". So don't be too hard on the kids who insisted $250,000 was middle class, he may have been raised this way, too. Most of their high school friends had about the same things, so those that were conspicuously wealthy, it was easy to point out we don't have that.
We have a couple of sayings in our little family - "There is no Cangel (fill in my last name) fortune", and an old Texas one, "Big hat, no cattle". We assumed from the beginning that someday our kids will have to work for a living, and will have much less to live on than we could give them, so we have tried to instill the notion that can't have everything that they want, that they need to share their many blessings with others, because there always many who are less fortunate and that everything is not as it seems. We are still working on graciousness and tact.
In the spirit of this discussion, I may start a thread on the saga of my son's automobile, visit me on the Parent Cafe.</p>

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<p>I do get what you say (maybe the examples you used were not exactly the best examples).</p>

<p>The best thing about the discussion is that it opens up dialogue no matter which side of the fence youare sitting on. I remember when my D was in kindergarten in tribeca and most of the 5 year olds were talking about having spent the weekend at their country house or going to their summer home. One day my D asked me if we had a summer home. I told her yes, sweetie we do have a summer home. You know what the greatest thing about our summer home is? We get to live in it fall, winter and spring too.</p>

<p>I had the opportunity to speak to my D this morning about class issues. She felt that there were bigger class issues in her high school where there were judgments based on your wearing 7 jeans, if you had a burberry scarf, a longchamp or le chepellier bag. She said on her campus that money really is not discussed. </p>

<p>She said some of the same issues about going out to dinner happens where she knows people who have no problems high rolling on their parents dime (but they are few and far between). Even in her group, she has friends who come from vast wealth, but they are also considerate of the fact that not everyone does. </p>

<p>She said that yes, there has been occasions where she has gone out to dinner with friends and the check will come and someone will say let's split the bill. Her problem with this is that yes, some people will only order a salad or an appetizer, while someone else will order everything from drinks to dessert. She is one of the first to speak up because she will tell people that she is not subsidizing anyone's meal and let everyone pay for what they purchased .</p>

<p>Class issues are not something that is totally relegated to elite schools. IMHO I think that you would probably see more class issues at the some of the public schools especially where it comes to things like housing:</p>

<p>for example:</p>

<p>Your cost for housing is based on whether you live in a single or a double or what amenities your dorm would have . In this type of situation, if someone ask you where you live, it will at some level determine what kind of money you have. Guess what, full freight financial aid students are not getting singles and living in the "high rent" dorms on campus. I know from my D's experience at Dartmouth, you pay the same amount of money whether you live in a singel, a double a quad, down by the river, in the brand new dorms or in campus owned greek housing.</p>

<p>Class issues open up about the kind of clothes you wear and the kind of car you drive, but again these things are not only issues that crop up in elite schools.
What about parents who can afford to purchase condos or homes (because they feel it is a better investment than paying for dorms). I think that this sets up a class system.</p>

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<p>"you would probably see more class issues at the some of the public schools especially where it comes to things like housing"</p>

<p>Yes, one of my friends went to Illinois. She made a deal with her parents: they said she had to go to the cheap instate public school, so she got to pick a more luxurious dorm. Illinois has many private dorms that are officially sanctioned by the school as on-campus freshman housing, but are run by independent, for-profit real estate companies. Well, she hated the place. The building was terrific, but she felt completely surrounded by spoiled rich kids who had zero interest in associating with any other kind of people. She was far more comfortable after she moved into her sorority the next year -- it was much less expensive and more economically diverse.</p>

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<p>My son applied to Dartmouth last year; it was his first choice school. I had similar concerns.....if he ended up there, would he be the only one NOT going to southern France for spring break?
He ended up at another school, which I thought would be more middle class and I never even thought about wealthy students there. It turns out his best friend at that school is the son of a doctor. S went to their home for Thanksgiving break and told me the family is obviously very wealthy (but still very cool and down to earth :) ). So as others have stated, kids will find income levels all over the board at every school.</p>

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<p>Marite, Texas A&M is a state university. I believe you are thinking about SMU (Professor Blog). I attended both. I never felt out of place at either even though there was plenty of money around. My roommate's family owned 600,000 acres in Montana and one of the world's largest lumber mills. He moved into the dorm with two pair of jeans, two flannel shirts, and a 10 year old Subaru. I lived with him for months before I accidentally found out he came from money. </p>

<p>I just don't see the problem with attending school with the wealthy. It's a learning experience as many have pointed out. My D hasn't had any significant negative experiences because of it. Most (and I do mean almost everyone) takes the T unless it is a very special occassion, in which case 4 or 5 might split a cab. Most of her dressy clothes are "vintage" and everyone shares. </p>

<p>One of the reasons she ended up at Harvard was the suite of 6 girls she stayed with during admitted students weekend. They pooled their closets (and dressed her when they went out as she didn't take anything dressy) and supported each others activities. They went to singing performance for one suitemate and attended an event that another rooommate had helped plan. I think some schools are more "into" the wealth thing than many of the Ivies. SMU and Vandy come to mind. The true class system comes about when 1/2 the campus is Greek and the other half is not IMHO. The Harvard Finals Clubs are an tiny part of the student population by comparison.</p>

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<p>Bandit TX;</p>

<p>Thanks for the correction. this is not the first time that I've confused Texas A&M and SMU!</p>

<p>I had a similar experience to yours in college. One of my floormates used to wear tattered jeans well before that became fashionable. In our senior year, I found out her parents regularly held receptions for 100+ people in their living room.
I agree with you completely that wealth disparities are not confined to Ivies.</p>