Middle-Class Gets a Raw Deal

Paying for College
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Elite college educations have always been expensive, and the financial aid for economically middle and low class people at these schools is better now than it ever was.

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<p>I disagree. I found a chart online that purported to graph college tuition over time. In 1940, tuition at MIT was well under $1000 per year. In inflation adjusted dollars, it was about $10k per year. I think that between saving for college, cutting spending, and borrowing money, most middle class families could finagle $10k a year without ending up in the poorhouse.</p>

<p>Not only that, but public schools were relatively inexpensive too. When my father went to college back in the day, his family couldn't afford a private school, so he went to CCNY which was essentially free.</p>

<p>Even 20 years ago when I went to college, it was still possible to make it through an elite school between Stafford loans, working on the side, and saving money in advance. You would end up with a lot of debt, but not enough to crush you.</p>

<p>Back in the day, it actually made sense for most families to save money for their childrens' education. Because there was a realistic chance that one could save enough money to actually pay.</p>

<p>But over the last 30 years, college tuition has risen well ahead of inflation. In real terms, it may be double, triple, or even quadruple what it once was. It seems to me that any increase in financial aid does not make up for the increase. So it's a bit disingenuous to claim that there is more financial aid than ever. And it seems like saving for college is in many ways counterproductive, since colleges are likely to become aware of those savings and may increase tuition for you accordingly.</p>

<p>On a personal note, I have to say that the situation is a little frustrating to me because I feel that I should pay for my childrens' college just like my parents paid for mine. Adjusting for inflation, my wife and I make approximately as much money as my parents did at my age and live lifestyles that are roughly comparable. And yet it seems likely that my parents will end up paying for my childrens' (hypothetical future) college.</p>

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I disagree with this statement. I drive 30 miles to work one way and i drive 25 miles to school one way. I am able to hold down 32 hours and 19 semester units. I babysit on the side. I have other online ventures that i must attend to and with all this, i still have plenty of time for whatever i please to do - and in my case that is sleeping. If you must work and your taking a harder major, and the work is because you need to pay for school, you can look at it one or two ways, i can pile up my debt and pay it off later - which is perfectly fine as long as you have run the numbers and find it plausible for you to do so - or you can take a lighter load such as 15 units, the standard among most. </p>

<p>Scheduling the hours should be the most difficult part, and the actual work involved with this is mearly contact between you and your hr. A student can work 16 hours on weekends and spread the other 4 or more hours among the weekdays. This is not a difficult proposition. Obviously eng and the sciences would stick out among the most time consuming majors, and if one is able to - and they should with proper time management- complete their major in good shape and while working then bravo, welcome to the real world.

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<p>I can't decrease my hours. If I want to graduate with my class, this is what I must do. Everyone in my major is suffering equally. In my major, you have no choice. If they say 17 hours this semester, we all do 17 hours. I'm in class from 8:30am to 4:30pm twice a week, 8:30am to 2:30pm one day, 7:30am to 12:30pm one day, and one day, 8:30am-10:30am, 1:30pm-4:30pm. I am one of the most time consuming majors out there: pharmacy. Working more than 10 hours per week will be detrimental.</p>

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<p>I find that in the long run that people do what they need to do.</p>

<p>I worked a full time job and went to school full time as an undergrad (both parents deceased so I had to pay my own way)</p>

<p>I have also held a full time job while doing a full time graudate internship, attending clasess and raising a kid.</p>

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<p>It all boils down to one's value system, doesn't it?</p>

<p>For every poor kid who gets a free ride there are 20 who go to local universities, or CC, take loans, work and stay home to save money.</p>

<p>It really is annoying when people who make 100k+ after taxes complain. If you did not save and plan, it is your fault. Now you expect someone to bail you out for the choices you made.</p>

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I can't decrease my hours. If I want to graduate with my class, this is what I must do. Everyone in my major is suffering equally. In my major, you have no choice. If they say 17 hours this semester, we all do 17 hours. I'm in class from 8:30am to 4:30pm twice a week, 8:30am to 2:30pm one day, 7:30am to 12:30pm one day, and one day, 8:30am-10:30am, 1:30pm-4:30pm. I am one of the most time consuming majors out there: pharmacy. Working more than 10 hours per week will be detrimental.

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<p>I believe the general topic revolves around undergrad - at least that is what i believe- graduate school is a totally different ballpark that i obviously have no experience with. I have been interested in opt schools and dental schools and by looking at those schedules, i would not take a part time job. Undergrad is different than these grad programs where you must follow the 18-22 units.</p>

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<p>simba- I agree that we all have choices- but I also see this conflict and frustration with those whoses EFCs are higher than COA, because some feel that those making much less have made the * choice* to make less money, to have less education and fewer opportunities.</p>

<p>From watching young people around me, work very hard in high school, get into very good colleges, do very well and then make barely over minimum wage 2 years out of college, I have a perspective that the market perhaps is saturated with college degrees.</p>

<p>I can see the point of those who insist that they get a "name" brand ( expensive) education, because when * everyone* has a degree, attending a Princeton or a MIT is one small way to stand out.</p>

<p>I do agree that we all have choices & I don't understand those who emphasize their inability to see that if their goal is overwhelming for them, then they need to make smaller goals until they get there.</p>

<p>Whining is a constant to the human condition- but not that satisfying.</p>

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<p>Publicly complaining is an important aspect of correcting injustices.</p>

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<p>"Publicly complaining is an important aspect of correcting injustices."</p>

<p>where do injustices come from?</p>

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where do injustices come from?

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<p>I'm happy to try answering your question if you tell me why the answer matters.</p>

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<p>Publicly complaining is an important aspect of correcting injustices.</p>

<p>I think it depends on who you are complaining to</p>

<p>I live in an area- where we love to ***** and moan and blame others for our situation, but we ***** even louder when someone points out that we haven't made any progress toward rectifying the situation because we are the ones who "own" the problem, but we expect someone else to fix it for us.</p>

<p>Particularly in the case re childrens education, it seems we can either spend alot of time finding others who have similar obstacles, commiserating with them over the situation that got us into this mess, trying to get those who we feel are in charge to change things, or identify what the goal is and work backward to where we are standing.</p>

<p>Ive found that while I certainly do spend time trying to work on things from the outside, and while it is reassuring to hear that I am not the only one in that situation, it doesn't move fast enough, children don't stop growing while you try and get things smoothed out for them.</p>

<p>Education is expensive so the bumper sticker goes.
But I don't see costs being lowered, in fact in our state, there is more talk about raising the price for public schools and offering more scholarships for low income rather than lowering it for all.</p>

<p>A very few( very competitive) schools of course do offer a great deal of aid * to students who qualify*, but first their families have to have qualified by having a relatively low income, and the students have to have qualified by being admitted.</p>

<p>These schools are not going to be lowering their prices for all- why should they? They turn away hordes of families every year vying for the opportunity to pay thousands of dollars to send their kids there. What motivation do they have to change the status quo?</p>

<p>What Id like to see, are more schools being added to the exchange agreements between states, allowing neighboring residents to attend out of state schools for 150% of tuition. Perhaps community colleges increasing- along different paths- a vocational-career path & a college entry path for those without a degree.</p>

<p>I do see exchange agreements expanding. Several years ago, when we were looking at schools for D1, a few schools offered this, but the majors were limited.
Now that I am looking for D2, the majors have opened up, and more schools are added, making other states very attractive. ( since for a high school junior, living anywhere as long as it is at least 200 miles away from mom and dad is pretty enticing- attending college 2000 miles away could be even better) ;)</p>

<p>Of course these aren't generally the most popular schools, Cal isn't on the list, although the flagship school U of Oregon is. It * is* an option however & something that families should consider when they are feeling like doors are being shut.</p>

<p>We not only dont have a high income - but since D1 is no longer a dependent- our EFC will be much higher- I don't expect much aid for D2- but that doesn't mean that she wont have lots of choices after high school.</p>

<p>Affordable choices
volunteer for a year or two- earn an education stipend to put toward college- increase college acceptance rates by showing community service</p>

<p>Work for a year or two- does add to EFC, but also increases acceptance rates as it shows committment to higher ed.</p>

<p>Attend CC for two years- transfer- saves lots of money & degree is from the 4 yr school</p>

<p>Attend instate or other public exchange university- saves money- reduces after graduation loans.</p>

<p>Take out lots of loans to attend expensive out of state school, have options limited after graduation because hampered by loans.</p>

<p>Change mind- attend trade school, travel- live someplace less expensive where every barista doesn't have a masters degree ;)</p>

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I think it depends on who you are complaining to</p>

<p>I live in an area- where we love to ***** and moan and blame others for our situation, but we ***** even louder when someone points out that we haven't made any progress toward rectifying the situation because we are the ones who "own" the problem, but we expect someone else to fix it for us.

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<p>I'm not sure what your point is. I agree that if the choice is between spending all one's energy complaining about the cost of college and spending all one's energy figuring out ways to reduce that cost and/or increase one's resources, the latter choice is more productive. </p>

<p>But it's not one thing or the other, and I object to the way that peoples' legitimate grievances are sometimes treated so dismissively.</p>

<p>Just my humble opinion, of course.</p>

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<p>True Scenarios: Ours: Married, Middle Class two kids, managing to keep up with bills SOME of the time. 2 cars - 15+ years old. house worth $80,000, No investments, savings, etc. Why? No extra money. Upcoming College expenses: No help from the govenment in grants etc. We don't qualify. </p>

<p>Acquaintences who are divorced: Son lives with mom, spends time at dads who lives down the street, Mom has a job, a new car. Dad makes over $100,000+ a year, taking son to Scotland for 10 days for the British Open for a Graduation Present. Got son a 2005 Ford 250 to drive. Bought the son and himself season football tickets to the college he will be attending. Son, gets most everything he needs or wants including more money from the government in student grants then what he even needs! A free ride plus extra! Too much money from the government, imagine that! Why, because he lives with his mom. His parents are divorced. Dad's wealth doesn't count.</p>

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<p>I volunteer in the College Center for our local, middling public high school in Southern California. Racial make up: 40% Hispanic, 40% white, 10% Af-Am. I've seen 7 classes graduate in that time.</p>

<p>So, based on what I have seen--the above statement is true. The high achieving poor kid has had more options than the high achieving mid-class kid--not only because the financial aid packages are better and make more colleges financially feasible, but because the ability of the poor kid to overcome the obstacles put up by his environment is highly prized with adcoms and so the high achieving poor kid may be accepted into some schools that may not have accepted the mid-class kid.</p>

<p>Having said that, I can tell you that I have only seen FOUR high achieving poor kids who fit this description over the last 7 years! (2 went to Harvard; 2 went to Stanford.) I have seen HUNDREDS of high achieving mid-class kids in the same time period. </p>

<p>Believe me, high achieving poor kids are so few in number that they are not statistically significant enough to serve as a reason for mid-class angst.</p>

<p>A lot of those disappointed mid-class kids (and they were disappointed and sometimes very angry--sometimes specifically at their high achieving poor classmantes) went on to college at the top tier of University of California schools (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD). It wasn't what they had dreamed, but they have done all right.</p>

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<p>True Scenarios: Ours: Married, Middle Class two kids, managing to keep up with bills SOME of the time. 2 cars - 15+ years old. house worth $80,000, No investments, savings, etc. Why? No extra money. Upcoming College expenses: No help from the govenment in grants etc. We don't qualify. </p>

<p>Acquaintences who are divorced: Son lives with mom, spends time at dads who lives down the street, Mom has a job, a new car. Dad makes over $100,000+ a year, taking son to Scotland for 10 days for the British Open for a Graduation Present. Got son a 2005 Ford 250 to drive. Bought the son and himself season football tickets to the college he will be attending. Son, gets most everything he needs or wants including more money from the government in student grants then what he even needs! A free ride plus extra! Too much money from the government, imagine that! Why, because he lives with his mom. His parents are divorced. Dad's wealth doesn't count. </p>

<p>I don't want a free ride to college for my kids, I just want things to be fair. </p>

<p>Maybe the solution is to get divorced for a few years.</p>

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Believe me, high achieving poor kids are so few in number that they are not statistically significant enough to serve as a reason for mid-class angst.

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<p>I think what you're saying here is that this shouldn't serve as a reason for mid-class agnst. Because clearly it does serve as such a reason. </p>

<p>Is the "angst" somehow illegitimate? I'm not sure. Here's a hypothetical: Suppose Harvard announced that it was setting up 10 full ride scholarships a year, exclusively for non-Jews. Would it be legitimate for Jewish people to be *<strong><em>ed off? I think so. Even though somebody might argue in response that 10 kids a year isn't statistically significant enough to get all *</em></strong>ed off about.</p>

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A free ride plus extra! Too much money from the government, imagine that! Why, because he lives with his mom. His parents are divorced. Dad's wealth doesn't count.

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<p>So basically you are angry with this student/parents for working with in they system; they choose a FAFSA only school which took into consideration only the custodial parent's income and child support. </p>

<p>The FAFSA does is determine one's ability for federal aid, (pell grants, seog, stafford and perkins loans). If the student is attending an in-state school ok, he may be eligible for some state aid. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that most FAFSA schools don't meet 100% demonstrated need so it is very unlikely that even the poorest of the poor kids who have "0" EFC will walk away with Full rides unless there was some merit / scholarship money also included in their package.</p>

<p>If your friend's son got a full ride with $$ to spare, he most likely hedged his bets and looked at schools that he would be a good candidate for merit money and ended up getting some and the problem with this is ????? To me this sounds like a family who did their homework when it came down to looking for ways to finance their education as there are many schools that give merit money that is not based on financial needs. So why be mad at this family because they sought out these schools?</p>

<p>I know for all of the years that I have been posting on CC, many parents especially those in the "middle class squeeze" are having their kids balance thier list with schools that give great merit aid (ex: Rice, Tulane, Davidson and the list goes on). I suggest going over to the parents forum and read the thread about the same middle class families just like yours who kids racked up merit money to defray the cost of their edcation. I would also suggest you search and look for postings by curmudgeon, who spent the past year and a half seeking out merit opportunites for his D because he knew they were eligible for very little need based aid (kid ultimately turned down Yale for a full ride at Rhodes).</p>

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<p>Wow I'm impressed. I make 100,000+, and I can't afford to do this!</p>

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<p>"I'm happy to try answering your question if you tell me why the answer matters."</p>

<p>because I am facinated by your vivid imagination.</p>

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<p>I am not saying that people with complaints don't ahve a right to complain-</p>

<p>I guess what I am responding to- are people who are surprised when they complain about not having three cars to those who don't have any- and are disappointed when they dont get more sympathy.</p>

<p>( and actually I did think about getting divorced- but we need all the deductions we can get- it would be easier just to have another child )
not!</p>

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because I am facinated by your vivid imagination.

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<p>Well, you are free to start a new thread in which you ask me questions about my "imagination," or debate the issue of where injustice comes from. But if you don't have any point to make in response to my post, I don't see any reason to respond here.</p>