Middle-Class Gets a Raw Deal

Paying for College
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I guess what I am responding to- are people who are surprised when they complain about not having three cars to those who don't have any- and are disappointed when they dont get more sympathy.

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<p>Can you point me to a few posts where people express suprise and disappointment that they aren't getting more sympathy? Frankly, what I see is people belittling the legitimate grievances of others.</p>

<p>And frankly, the "some people are worse off than you" argument doesn't carry a lot of weight with me. Because there are always people worse off -- but it doesn't make injustice go away.</p>

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<p>Ellemenope,</p>

<p>"Having said that, I can tell you that I have only seen FOUR high achieving poor kids who fit this description over the last 7 years! (2 went to Harvard; 2 went to Stanford.) I have seen HUNDREDS of high achieving mid-class kids in the same time period."</p>

<p>Do you know this year, according to MIT's stats, 28% of its students received full ride, pell grant plus scholarship, 0 student contribution, o parents contribution, to go to MIT, meaning they do not pay a penny, (MIT pays also for them to fly to CPW and later all the flight tickets up to $700 each year.) while middle class kids have to pay more than $48,000 to go to MIT? Most of the middle class kids will face around 150k to 200k debt when graduating MIT four years later if their middle class parents really cannot help them much, meaning the parents truly do not have the ability or saving for them. At the same time MIT's poor students graduating debt free and in between MIT pays for them to go study abroad, campus housing, books, meals and ... I truly hope MIT will count me as one of the poor kids in order I can get a full ride and debt free ...</p>

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Ellemenope,</p>

<p>"Having said that, I can tell you that I have only seen FOUR high achieving poor kids who fit this description over the last 7 years! (2 went to Harvard; 2 went to Stanford.) I have seen HUNDREDS of high achieving mid-class kids in the same time period."</p>

<p>Do you know this year, according to MIT's stats, 28% of its students received full ride, pell grant plus scholarship, 0 student contribution, o parents contribution, to go to MIT, meaning they do not pay a penny, (MIT pays also for them to fly to CPW and later all the flight tickets up to $700 each year.)

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<p>I suppose that if each public high school sends an average of 1 poor kid every 2 years to a top school, that could potentially add up to a lot of free rides.</p>

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<p>Alot of emotion and bitterness here. I agree that the cost of college, particularly the privates, are soaring beyond middle income means. Some of the info I have seen has shown proportionally lower percentages of the middle income kids going to such schools, even those that offer full aid to those who qualify. </p>

<p>However, OVERALL, more middle income kids have MORE choices than those who are low income. Far more. Anecdotally, yes, there are many, many situations where you can pick out where someone in the middle income range has been shafted whereas others in the low income range make out. But, that is NOT the overall picture at all.</p>

<p>Those families who have money that slip through the FAFSA/PROFILE cracks do make out. If you have a grandparent, or godparent or any benefactor who will lend or give your family money, it is often not reported. You can also configure your financial picture to fit financial aid parameters if you do it early enough and are willing to live accordingly. You can even go low income. It's really quite easy to do, but the ramifications may be alot more than you want. It is much, much more difficult to make the step up from low income to middle income.</p>

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However, OVERALL, more middle income kids have MORE choices than those who are low income. Far more.

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<p>So what? If we are to believe them, top colleges aim to meet the financial needs of their admitees. As opposed to engaging in "social levelling." </p>

<p>And if they really were in the business of "social levelling," places like Stanford and Harvard would reject the likes of Chelsea Clinton or the Prince of Denmark. And people would tell the rejects that they still have far more choices, overall, than the middle and lower class kids who were accepted.</p>

<p>But top colleges don't reject the likes of Chelsea Clinton. On the contrary, I understand that admissions standards are often relaxed for the children of the very wealthy/prominent/powerful. So it looks to me like "social levelling," even if justified, is more of an excuse than an explanation.</p>

<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>

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Do you know this year, according to MIT's stats, 28% of its students received full ride, pell grant plus scholarship, 0 student contribution, o parents contribution, to go to MIT, meaning they do not pay a penny

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<p>Source please.... </p>

<p>Keep in mind tht just because a school has met 100% of your need does not mean that you have gotten a "free ride" it just means that you have had your need met.</p>

<p>especially since they state in their financial aid statistics:</p>

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14% of undergraduates come from families with incomes of $43,400 or less.

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<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/sfs/financial_aid/financial_aid_stats.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/sfs/financial_aid/financial_aid_stats.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>they also state up front that there is a self help portion</p>

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contribution.”We also expect you to borrow and/or work during the school
year for $5,250 – we call this your “self-help expectation.”</p>

<p>on page 16...</p>

<p>FINANCIAL AID PACKAGE is the term used to describe the total aid you receive
from all types and from all sources of financial aid. *At MIT we use a simple system to package or award aid.We meet the first $5,250 of your need through a self-help loan/work offer. * If your need is greater than $5,250, then we package need-based grants we administer, including MIT Scholarships, Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grants (FSEOG) and Massachusetts Gilbert Grants.</p>

<p>page 17....</p>

<p>Your student contribution is ordinarily the same as our summer earnings expectation –
*$1,500 for freshmen, $2,200 for sophomores, $2,500 for juniors and $2,800 for seniors *
unless you have significant savings of your own, high earnings during the prior tax year, or outside grants in excess of your self-help amount.</p>

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<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/sfs/forms_and_publications/form_pdfs/MMA-0708.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/sfs/forms_and_publications/form_pdfs/MMA-0708.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>MIT does have a self help component where students must earn a minimum of 1500 over the summer. </p>

<p>Daniel Barkowitiz from MIT's FA department posted himself on cc:</p>

<p>However, they are matching the Pell Grant for students who receive a Pell, meaning that for a family with Pell Grant, there are less loans and work as part of the financial aid package. And since we added the ability for Summer Contributions to be covered by outside scholarships, for students who arrive with Pell and outside funding, it is possible for them to have no loans, no work expectation, no summer contribution, and all grant (this is how a student would have a "full ride").</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=157510&highlight=barkowitz%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=157510&highlight=barkowitz&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Everyone keeps talking about a different scenarios with applying to State Schools. I live in Kansas and was shocked how little the State Universities in Kansas give to incoming Freshman. Even those with a good ACT score and a 3.5 GPA. My son thought he did everything that would be necessary to earn scholarships. Volunteer work, a high amount of school involvement. Paricipation in outside community groups, etc. It made NO difference. He was so disappointed. Where do our tax dollars go? No wonder our kids leave the state and don't return. With an income of $60,000 , we are expected to come up with nearly all of the tuition, etc. Of course we make too much to qualify for any government grants. We do qualify for one $3500 subsidized loan. Further, my son wants to be a teacher. How will he ever pay back the cost of college today on that type of salary. Yes, I have searched for scholarships for those going into teaching. There are none that we can find. We are frustrated.</p>

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<p>I agree it's frustrating. I would consider encouraging my son to go into something where he can enjoy his work AND make a lot of money. It seems like we are rapidly turning into an hourglass society.</p>

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<p>With teaching, there are some tuition forgiveness programs out there that would forgive a certain amount of tuition debt, although from what I saw, it's in the neighborhood of $4500, which is a good chunk of change but fairly insignificant in terms of what your son may be borrowing to finance his college education. Still every little bit helps.</p>

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<p>There are incentives in NYC including free graduate tuition & housing if teaching in a shortage area such as math/schience.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nycboe.net/TeachNYC/ScholarshipsIncentivesSpecialPrograms.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nycboe.net/TeachNYC/ScholarshipsIncentivesSpecialPrograms.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Check with your son's counselor for local scholarships...at our school there are three or four scholarships for teaching only. Our school has FTA (Future Teachers of America) and they provide one of them. Also check into the loan forgiveness like Irishmomof2 said. Some schools help their teachers pay off loans if they sign a contract for so many years (usually 2 - 5) especially in areas of special education (and math/science like Sybbie said).</p>

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<p>what if you live in some craphole state like nevada where your only choice for a good education is out of state</p>

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<p>If you are hoping your child will receive merit aid in order to attend a private college, be aware that it may take near perfect scores in order to receive merit aid at an Ivy or a "New Ivy". Speaking from experience, if your child with decent credentials and scores, is fortunate enough to get accepted to an Emory, Vanderbilt, Cornell or even Kenyon, be prepared for no merit aid. That same student, however, might get great merit aid at a Denison, Wittenberg, Depauw, etc.</p>

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<p>Ivies don't offer merit aid.</p>

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<p>Interesting that you should mention MIT. </p>

<p>Only have experience with one kid from our high school who went to MIT. From her experience, I'd have to say that MIT is very generous with aid (I know, one data point...). She is white, middle-class and MIT cost her somewhere in the area of $0-10K per year (specific numbers not revealed, but she said that MIT was costing her less than a school that would have cost her $10k a year). She had 3 sibs going to that cheaper college.</p>

<p>If she hadn't gotten such a good fin aid package from MIT, she was prepared to go to that $10k a year college too. </p>

<p>I was pretty amazed--this was my first experience with middle class kids getting such a great aid package! The schools tell parents to fill out the fin aid forms even though they are middle class--you might qualify for aid, they say. Hers could well have been a special case, but I have to say that MIT made a big effort to make it work financially for her.</p>

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<p>I'm not saying that middle class angst is illegitimate, but that focusing all anger on high achieving poor kids is misplaced. People get so much more incensed when a high achieving poor kid gets a full ride to Stanford (can't use the Ivies as an example, since they don't give athletic scholarships) than when the sports kids get a free ride. (And we've had threads on CC about how we should quit bashing the athletic scholarships).</p>

<p>Being middle class has always meant having to compromise--driving the Honda accord, not the BMW, etc. But, thankfully, you can afford a car. If you want the BMW, you can have it, but you have to save $$ for it.</p>

<p>Around my neighborhood, being middle class means sending your kid to UC instead of to Harvard. If you want your kid to go to Harvard, you have to save/invest your money and/or go into debt.</p>

<p>Haven't seen a lot of angst of mid-class parents at our high school--maybe it's because many of our mid-class kids choose to go to the UCs, or we don't get many mid-class kids into HYPSM anyway, or because the ones that do get in get a financial aid package even though they are mid-class or because our mid-class parents have saved $$/willing to go into debt to fund an HYPSM education.</p>

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<p>I read that term in another thread....so what schools are considered "new ivy"?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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I'm not saying that middle class angst is illegitimate, but that focusing all anger on high achieving poor kids is misplaced.

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<p>I doubt that anyone is particularly angry at "high achieving poor kids" -- people are angry the system that seems to favor many high achieving poor kids over high achieving middle class kids.</p>

<p>Your earlier response seemed to be that there are sufficiently few "high achieving poor kids" receiving this favorable treatment that people shouldn't mind. However, it seems you have abandoned this position.</p>

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than when the sports kids get a free ride.

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<p>Maybe athletic scholarships are right, and maybe they are wrong, but my question is . . . so what? Assuming that athletic scholarships are unfair, two wrongs don't make a right.</p>

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Being middle class has always meant having to compromise--driving the Honda accord, not the BMW, etc. But, thankfully, you can afford a car. If you want the BMW, you can have it, but you have to save $$ for it.

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<p>Again, so what? Anyway, to continue your analogy, what if the government announced it would be providing free BMW's to people below a certain income threshhold?</p>

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<p>"what if the government announced it would be providing free BMW's to people below a certain income threshhold?"</p>

<p>First of all, the the reasoning above in not correct. But to humor you - you are missing the crucial part - 'qualified' poor people.</p>

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First of all, the the reasoning above in not correct.

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<p>It doesn't really advance the discussion to make your point in conclusory terms. If you think my reasoning is incorrect, please explain how. TIA.</p>

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But to humor you - you are missing the crucial part - 'qualified' poor people.

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<p>To humor you, feel free to suppose that the government announced it was giving away BMW's to "qualified" poor people. (whatever that means.)</p>