<p>What kind of teacher does your son want to be? My daughter plans to teach high school biology and there are lots of programs out there. After having completed five years of teaching that subject, $17500 of her Stafford loans can be forgiven (which is pretty much all), and many/most school districts will pay for her Master's. We think that's a pretty good deal.</p>
<p>momray:
"New Ivies" is a term made up by Newsweek magazine to sell more magazines.</p>
<p>"To humor you, feel free to suppose that the government announced it was giving away BMW's to "qualified" poor people. (whatever that means.)"</p>
<p>I don't have vivid imagination. But feel free to imagine any 'qualified' poor people with 'qualified' need.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't have vivid imagination. But feel free to imagine any 'qualified' poor people with 'qualified' need.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Umm, you're the one who used the word "qualified." Presumably you had some idea of what you meant when you used it. In any event, I don't see how it changes the analogy. </p>
<p>Maybe my imagination isn't vivid enough. Or maybe your argument doesn't make any sense.</p>
<p>And by the way, you still haven't explained exactly how my reasoning is incorrect.</p>
<p>"And by the way, you still haven't explained exactly how my reasoning is incorrect."</p>
<p>Use your imagination or chalk it off as injustices by those green men.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Use your imagination or chalk it off as injustices by those green men.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In this case, I'll go with the most obvious explanation: It is you who are incorrect.</p>
<p>
[quote]
people are angry the system that seems to favor many high achieving poor kids over high achieving middle class kids.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not sure I agree that the "system" does anything of the sort. Indeed, it is only a few well-endowed colleges that can favor poor kids economically. The government certainly does not, since loans are not free money (which eliminates the BMW analogy). The "system," such that it is, is comprised of the thousands of public state colleges and universities across our land, most of which have a huge self-help component attached to them for poor kids. OTOH, there ARE many private schools that DO favor high achieving middle class kids -- search cc for keyword 'curmudgeon'.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not sure I agree that the "system" does anything of the sort. Indeed, it is only a few well-endowed colleges that can favor poor kids economically.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure how many colleges are involved, but I do know that a number of colleges get together regularly to compare and discuss the formulas they use for setting financial aid. I understand this is done through a central organization known as the College Board, which distributes software to help colleges award financial aid.</p>
<p>I recently ate lunch with a friend of mine who works for the College Board. He explained how this financial aid system works. I got excited because I thought I saw a clear anti-trust violation. (I am an attorney and I make my living suing people.) </p>
<p>However, an hour's research revealed that the government permits this collusion among colleges and universities. In any other industry, this sort of arrangement would probably result in people going to jail.</p>
<p>So I would call it a "system." But if you want to call it a practice or a procedure, fine. Doesn't change the fact that middle class children have a legitimate gripe.</p>
<p>*Doesn't change the fact that middle class children have a legitimate gripe.
*</p>
<p>I would agree that the collusion is suspect- but I don't see that only middle class students ( whatever that means) are affected.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would agree that the collusion is suspect- but I don't see that only middle class students ( whatever that means) are affected.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not saying that middle class students are the only people who have a legitimate grievance. I brought the collusion issue up mainly to defend my use of the word "system"</p>
<p>I also brought it up to preempt the "free market" argument.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure how many colleges are involved, but I do know that a number of colleges get together regularly to compare and discuss the formulas they use for setting financial aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The 568 Group are the only colleges with an antitrust exemption to discuss a common need formulas (you can search Lexis for case history). The members may NOT, however, discuss award formulas. For example, P'ton excludes loans in its finaid offerings. I also read on cc that P'ton excludes home equity. </p>
<p>UChicago posts that 93 students whose families earn more than $117k have been awarded an average finaid award of $18k.</p>
<p>"people are angry the system that seems to favor many high achieving poor kids over high achieving middle class kids."</p>
<p>explain how did you come to that conclusion? Let us take example of emraldkity. Her income is 42 K/yr - below the median income in US - her economic status would be lower middle class, and yet she HAS to pay about 45% of her income for college.</p>
<p>Here you are moaning that you have to pay half of your AFTER tax income. (What fraction your EFC would be based on your pre-tax income?)</p>
<p>Our child is waitlisted for 3 schools. Financial aid was hard to negotiate with the one school that accepted her. It is still too low but we're going to do it at quite a sacrifice. Can we expect more from other schools if she is called on the waiting list or are they pretty even? She was accepted to Oberlin and waitlisted by Vassar, Williams and Middlebury. Do financial aid packages get less generous as the summer progresses or are they as generous as the regular admissions?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The 568 Group are the only colleges with an antitrust exemption to discuss a common need formulas (you can search Lexis for case history). The members may NOT, however, discuss award formulas. For example, P'ton excludes loans in its finaid offerings. I also read on cc that P'ton excludes home equity. </p>
<p>UChicago posts that 93 students whose families earn more than $117k have been awarded an average finaid award of $18k.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure what your point is here, but it sounds like you agree that there's a "system." As far as which colleges are involved, I don't know exactly. But I'll tell you this: If there was an airline trade association that had a yearly convention to discuss pricing techniques; and that same association produced pricing software with pre-set parameters; and most or all airlines used that software; and if the prices charged by certain airlines ended up very similar -- you can bet the Justice Department would be looking very carefully.</p>
<p>All of this quibling about who has the better deal is skirting the issue that a college education for anyone but the very wealthy requires sacrifices that are much larger then they used to be. Wages have stagnated and c ollege costs have skyrocketed. I don't think it is at all ok that so many kids begin life with frightening debt. I believe that the EFC is extrememly unrealistic for EVERYONE, not just those living below the poverty line. For whatever reason we as a society don't value education enough to make it readily availble without the heavy financial burden that will take years to pay off.</p>
<p>
[quote]
explain how did you come to that conclusion? Let us take example of emraldkity. Her income is 42 K/yr - below the median income in US - her economic status would be lower middle class, and yet she HAS to pay about 45% of her income for college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here's another example: A child from a family earning $40k a year gets into Stanford. He pays no tuition -- that's their policy. He's going to Stanford and he winds up with little or no loans to pay back.</p>
<p>Another child from a family earning $140k per year gets into Stanford. His EFC is high enough that he doesn't qualify for financial aid. Accordingly to the formulas, the parents can afford to pay the whole $40k per year. However, the reality is that they cannot do so without gutting their retirement savings or selling their house. So they tell their child "sorry, you can go to State U. We know it's not your top choice, but it's all we can afford. And you'll need to take out loans to boot."</p>
<p>For better or worse, the first child is being favored by the financial aid system. He gets to go to his first choice school and graduate with little or no debt. The second child can't go to his first choice school. And graduates with more debt, possibly a lot more.</p>
<p>And that is how the system ends up favoring many high achieving poor kids over high achieving middle class kids.</p>
<p>NO.</p>
<p>Most likely the child who has 40k of income, does not have assets.</p>
<p>The child whose family makes 140 K/yr must/should have planned their lives (also they had surplus $) to save and build a nest egg. If that child's family did not plan - whose fault is it?</p>
<p>"(What fraction your EFC would be based on your pre-tax income?)"</p>
<p>You did not answer this question. Let me ask another way. What fraction of your yearly pre-tax income should your EFC be?</p>
<p>The real question is not the $40k for free vs $140k income for a larger amount, but what happens to the family who earnd $45k or $50k, just over an arbitrary amount for a particular program where the uni does not count home equity, etc. There could be a wide disparity in finaid for incomes which are not substantively different.</p>
<p>no I do not agree that a system exists. The 568 group is comprised of only 28 colleges out of the 3500 institutions in this country. But, too your example, they do not agree on PRICE, only need. In my view, 'price' is net of free money provided by the colleges.</p>
<p><a href="http://568group.org/methodology/%5B/url%5D">http://568group.org/methodology/</a></p>