Middle Class Injustice Fordham Admissions and Financial Aid

Parents Forum
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<p>We had an interesting experience with Fordham. Daughter was admitted, yet the financial aid offer made the acceptance out of the question. Unfortunatley, while our income is high, there is little accounting for funding own retirement (we have no real company pension to hold on to--so we must heavily find our own retirement) and we will have three children in college at the same time. Fordham only offered 4,100 in scholarship meaning payment would be 44K per year. Even though we are tageting paying 100-120k, it would still mean student debt 56-76k. out of reach, we believe--although I realize some do take this on. </p>

<p>It seems that the upper middle class are at a real disadvantage. Parents end up paying a boatload--and kids can still walk out with huge debt. Something is not right with this picture. We had to decline Fordham, and attend another school that can offset some of the tuition. I realize Fordham is trying to be a hot school, and attract the 1400 SATs, but the kids in the to 10 and nearly 1300 are not the focus, at least with financial support--but I don't believe it's a good cost/benefit to pay what would be needed (and the school did recognize that additional need was present) even though she loved the school--and we did too!
She is very happy with her next pick, but what a discouraging process.</p>

2

<p>There are thousands of colleges in the U.S. including many that are affordable for people who are middle/upper middle class. There's also plenty of info available about individual colleges' financial aid policies.</p>

<p>Fordham isn't known for being generous with financial aid. According to U.S. News' Premium college guide, which one can access for about $15 on-line for a 12-month period, the average indebtedness of Fordham students at graduation is about $26 k, about $9 k above the national average, and Fordham meets the full financial need of only 22% of its students.</p>

<p>Considering that a college education is one of one's largest investments, seems it would have made sense to investigate the finances before allowing one's D to apply to Fordham, which was very unlikely to give her what you feel she would have needed to attend.</p>

<p>I'm a parent in a similar situation to yours in that we're middle class, and knew that our kids probably wouldn't qualify for need-based aid. When both sons applied to college, we considered finances before even having them look at colleges. No reason to allow them to fall in love with a college there's no way we'd be willing to pay for.</p>

<p>Older S's dream school -- an out of state public that we thought he had decent chances of getting merit aid to -- gave him nothing. He happily went off to his very generous second choice school.</p>

<p>Younger S chose to go to an expensive LAC that gave him some merit aid, but still will cost S (who is taking out loans and working summers, school year) and us more than we had hoped for. He was turned down for need-based aid. If he hadn't gotten some merit aid, he would have gone elsewhere, something he knew when he applied.</p>

<p>Given the range of options our kids have had in their lives, and have in their choice of colleges (which still is broader than options of people with lower income), I don't complain about my kids' choices. I know too many low income students and alum who are having staggering $30,000+ loans to pay for in state second and third tier colleges, and will get no financial help from their struggling families. This includes students who saved money by living at home and going to community college before going to a four year public.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, as usual, has some great advice. I can tell you that I do sympathize with you as we are a family that can pay for college on paper, but realistically, it would not be a good idea given other situations our family may be facing in the future. We value education, dearly love our children, which does cause us pains as we try to juggle things to give them what we can, and yet do the right thing.</p>

<p>The college choice process, like most things in a capitalist society, is slanted to benefit those who can comfortably pay. It is not true that it is the middle class that bears the brunt of college cost, since those who have even less money have even fewer choices. Yes, there are a few categories that can benefit from our financial aid system such as the very top students from poor households that get into colleges that meet 100% of need generously, but that is very much the exception. I know many, many kids who are painfully earning their college, course by course, dollar by dollar on a part time basis, working full time, still living with parents because that is the only financial way they can do it. </p>

<p>The financial aid system has many flaws. There are many pockets where you can be severely penalized or make out over some one else just due to quirk of circumstance that was not properly addressed. It is utterly unfair that someone who works for a company that generously provides an excellent pension, top medical insurance, disability provisions, etc is assessed identically as another person who earns the same salary but has to self provide all of these necessities that should come before paying for a college. I have a friend who owns a number of apartments. The rents are a major part of the family income, and the buildings are their assets for retirement. He has painfully acquired and fixed these homes over years as his livelihood. To sell them would be a disaster for long term financial security for his family. Too bad. Unfair, but too bad, so sad. </p>

<p>Fordham does not guarantee to meet financial need. They do have merit scholarships to attract students that they really want. When applying for colleges, if you need the money, you should know that those colleges that do not provide most of need are not likely to meet your need. You have to be in the top echelon of students to get full need or merit money at those schools. You can take a chance and apply to a few such school, hoping that they will come up with the money, but there should be some financial safeties on your list as well.
Fordham was one of the more generous schools to my son. He got about $20K in merit money from them. But he also had very high SAT scores for them. However, given their COA, which is over $50K, that meant son and we would have to still come up with $30 which is a lot of money. The school he chose has a lower sticker price, but only gave hime $10k in grants. We are all working on how we will pay this first year, and planning out the future ones as well. He could have gone to a fully paid SUNY, or a lower priced SUNY, but we all decided to go this route.</p>

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<p>This is a great thread for us because D2 was planning to look at Fordham, but now I'm not so sure. Money is a factor for us even though it looks like a big income on paper. Among the other issues of my older daughter, she had agreed to pay a dollar figure toward her private school tuition every year and after the first year, she realized that that and the upcoming debt could be quite onerous. She ultimately decided to go to a CUNY because she plans to teach and knows she'll never get wealthy from that, but cpt's point about subsequent years, when the novelty has worn off and grind set in, is a very good one.</p>

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<p>Zoosermom, depending on her test scores, she might do well merit wise at Fordham. Look at schools where her scores are in the upper 5-10%. Manhattan College is another possibility. A friend of ours daughter got an excellent merit package from them. It was a perfect fit for her--fell in love at once, wanted NYC, she has finished first year with $$s to spare.</p>

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<p>When it comes to figuring out in advance whether a college may be affordable, in addition to thoroughly reading the college's web site about costs, financial aid and merit scholarships, I suggest:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Paying the $15 to use the on-line site for U.S. News Premium College guide, which provides detailed info for individual colleges about what percentage of students apply for, qualify, and get financial aid, what percentage of their need is met, and the average amount of loans that students carry at graduation.</p></li>
<li><p>Running your family finances through an on-line financial aid calculator like the one you can find on CC's home page.</p></li>
<li><p>Asking on CC and checking the archives for individual families' financial aid and merit aid experiences with colleges that interest you. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I strongly suggest that if money is an issue, only take your kid to see a college or allow your kid to apply to a college if it seems there's a reasonable chance that college will be affordable for you. "Reasonable chance" when it comes to merit aid means that either your kid would be guaranteed merit aid (for instance, some colleges automatically give merit aid to students with certain stats) or your kid's profile is extremely similar to those of students who've gotten the kind of aid your kid needs.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that gender can be important as when it comes to LACs, many have a hard time recruiting males, so males often can get merit aid even though females with much higher stats get nothing.</p>

<p>Remember, too, it's easier to not allow a student to apply to a certain college than to tell your beloved kid that they can't go to their first choice college that has just accepted them.</p>

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<p>To the OP, FYI Fordham doesn't provide decent FA to lower-middle class families, either. This was our experience two years ago when our D was accepted. She was offered a $10K scholarship (not need-based) and a subsidized Stafford loan. That was it, with an EFC of $5,000. It was insulting to say the least and she did not attend.</p>

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<p>We did not even consider out-of-state for the same reason. D. got substantial academic scholarships at every school that she applied, but she applied only to in-state. If it was not for money, she could have applied to some elite schools, and probably would be accepted at some. She graduated at the top of her class and knew limitations very well before compiling the list of colleges. She likes where she is now, so at the end it worked out anyway. Financially it is very good, since we are paying around 60% of Room and Board + books, the rest is covered.</p>

<p>If you are concerned with finances, in-state is the best bet or some private school with lots of funding like Case Western. We would not be considered for need based at any school in USA.</p>

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<p>OK-I'm going to get smashed by the politically correct but here it goes. We are in that bracket where we are far from rich but don't qualify for need based aid. Problem--location of home is on eastern long island where the homes of locals are assessed ridiculously high (equates to huge assets on paper--colleges say--"just refinance". Self-employed--since we don't have pension plans through our employment, it was imperative to put money away for retirement (this savings kills any chance of qualifying for need based aid--colleges see it as expendable.). We were stupid enough to make our kids work throughout their teenage years and save their money in their own bank accounts (this was another strike against acquiring need based aid). Don't qualify for "diversity scholarships". Both kids offered merit scholarships but what good is $10,000-$12,000/yr. when you're talking about a $48,000+/yr. price tag for 4 years and for more than one kid in college at a time. Here I go--poor get the aid. Rich can afford it. Minority students have special scholarships. The rest of us either go into the financial debt of hell or send kids to public university (even though they get accepted to top tier private colleges).</p>

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<p>NY- I don't think anyone is going to smash you- but surely you're not saying that it's better to be a single mom driving a school bus in Bridgeport CT earning $24K a year and living in a housing project.... even though her kid would qualify for a full ride at Harvard or Princeton... rather than to be you, with a house, retirement savings, a stable two parent household, and presumably health insurance?</p>

<p>Maybe you want to rephrase your posting..... since many of us are in the same boat and are very sympathetic. We just can't begrudge the random poor kid (and their numbers at the schools who pay full freight are really tiny) who manages to get accepted to a top tier private college. I would rather have assets to borrow against (or choose not to.... my choice, not the college's and not the governments, but my choice) than to be poor. Maybe it's me.</p>

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<p>Why kids are applying to colleges that they cannot afford? There are plenty out there that will pay full tuition or even full ride. Academic scholarships at in-state that are nowhere close to those $48,000/year to begin with will do the trick. We cannot change the system, but we can definately use it to our advantage. Do not have to be poor or rich to adjust.</p>

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<p>I understand where NYSmile is coming from, because I am in a similar position. Posters who belittle the difficulties faced by upper middle class self-employed who get no financial aid but cannot afford private colleges without large loans do not understand what it is like to be self-employed. If college financial aid was calculated including retirement plans and future pensions, many posters would be up in arms that their EFCs would dramatically increase. As a self-employed person, I could then respond, "Why are you crying about having to pay more because you have retirement savings? Would you rather have more retirement savings or none?"</p>

<p>College financial aid is based on a formula that does not change too much from year to year. It has traditionally been based on savings, previous year's income, and excludes some home equity and retirement savings. Obviously, a forward-thinking person can plan for this. However, a forward-looking person could also choose an occupation that has higher pay. For some reason, on these threads parents who have low incomes engender pity, but those who have larger current incomes and less savings get nothing but scorn. This does not seem very objective, especially because many who have larger incomes have worked very hard to get to those levels. Furthermore, not everyone who has a high income now has had such a high income for years or decades. Just as you may not want to penalize a kid who comes from a poor family, it seems to me that our current financial aid system penalizes families who try to work very hard to earn extra money now. Where is the compassion for those who did not have enough saved for college (possibly because they did not have a large income before) and now and working extra hard to earn extra money, only disqualifying them for financial aid. Not only are such persons in a higher income tax bracket (e.g. 38 percent or whatever) but they also face an extra effective 20 percent "tax", because every dollar they earn makes them eligible for about 20 cents less in financial aid.</p>

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<p>"I would rather have assets to borrow against (or choose not to.... my choice, not the college's and not the governments, but my choice) than to be poor. Maybe it's me."</p>

<p>Count me as a middle class doesn't qualify for need-based aid who agrees with you. My kids and family have advantages that low income students do not. Sure, some low income students can qualify for fabulous financial aid. However, such aid is only at the country's top universities -- places that next to no one (and even fewer low income students) qualifies for.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, there are plenty of colleges that I could easily afford to send my kids. Those same colleges that seem inexpensive to me would take a huge sacrifice for low-income students, who usually can't count on their parents to do things that middle class students take for granted. This includes providing computer, phone service, clothing for college, as well as transportation to and from college. And, help with housing deposits, transportation for interviews, a car, setting up one's living quarters after college -- all are things that low income students usually can't get from their parents, who often are working a couple of jobs just to make ends meet.</p>

<p>To top it off, the same parents typically haven't gone beyond high school, so can't offer much help as students apply to college and later look for internships and professional jobs.</p>

<p>No reason to envy low income students. Lots of reason for middle class people to be very grateful for the lives they have and the options their kids have.</p>

<p>"I understand where NYSmile is coming from, because I am in a similar position. Posters who belittle the difficulties faced by upper middle class self-employed who get no financial aid but cannot afford private colleges without large loans do not understand what it is like to be self-employed."</p>

<p>Many of us do understand what it's like to be self employed or not to be able to afford private colleges without a big sacrifice. However, we're all fortunate enough to be in a country where there are plenty of wonderful public colleges.Virtually any middle class person can find a way to go to college (even if that means starting off at a community college) without an enormous financial burden.</p>

<p>We're lucky that we live in a country in which higher education is affordable to our kids. Sure, many of us would love for our kids to get the caviar of higher education, but heck, I'd love an expensive sports car, but I can't afford one, and don't feel entitled to one just because I want one.</p>

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<p>Well, I guess what I'm saying is that the child of that single mom driving a school bus has a darned good opportunity to attend a top tier college if the student has the stats high enough to get in because of the generous financial aid package. Those families stuck in the middle--make too much for financial aid and the merit scholarships aren't usually big enough--either go into huge debt for top tier colleges or send their kids to public universities. </p>

<p>I agree with MiamiDAP. For families stuck in this middle category--in state public universities are the best option despite the fact that our kids have the statistics to get into top tier colleges. I know this is how the system works but it's frustrating. We made the decision to have our kids attend affordable colleges. We chose debt free over prestige. No regrets about it.</p>

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<p>pafather, finally someone else who understands the problems of the self employed! We pay for our own health insurance (not our employer). We own a business--no vacation time, no vacation pay, no sick day pay, no pension (other than a savings account). Any responsible business owner understands the ups and downs of their salary so a small "cushion" of money always needs to be available should the business have a bad few months. This cushion is non-negotiable. It's not something that can't be used for tuition. It needs to be available to cover living/business expenses if the business drops off for a short time. Unfortunately, college financial forms don't take this into consideration. Any savings is counted as usable money for tuition. </p>

<p>Just venting. Life is good here and kids are off to affordable colleges. They'll get a good education but it sure would have been nice to let them attend one of the top tiered colleges that accepted them.</p>

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<p>"Well, I guess what I'm saying is that the child of that single mom driving a school bus has a darned good opportunity to attend a top tier college if the student has the stats high enough to get in because of the generous financial aid package. "</p>

<p>However, only a small proportion of kids has the opportunity to go to those kind of colleges. When it comes to the kids of single parent blue collar workers, their odds are even lower because they are far less likely to attend the kind of schools and have the kind of parental support (including having parents who do things the middle class considers normal such as speaking standard English, having books around the house, and having the time and motivation to attend routine meetings with teachers) to have the skills, academic background and motivation to gain entrance to any college at all.</p>

<p>It's often a thrill for their parents when the students even graduate from high school as the students may be the first in their families to accomplish that. </p>

<p>Just because someone has the stats to get into a top tier college doesn't mean that they have a right to do so. There are far more students with the stats to get into a top tier college than there are spaces at such colleges. If finances cause a potential top tier college student to have to go to a second tier college or a public university, it's not the end of the world. Unlike what's the case in some other countries, one's choice of college doesn't lock one out of options to be a success in life.</p>

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<p>There are plenty of people who can't afford college period and have no possibility of going. I feel for the 51% of low wage earners who will not have the opportunities for higher education.</p>

<p>There are fantastic opportunities available for those who care to look....Fortune and Kiplinger rates schools that are best deals for the quality of education/cost affordability/aid. Parents should look there first realizing that you don't have to have a Private education to get a very good quality education. If that is your mindset then You get no sympathy from me. </p>

<p>Parents need to live within their means and teach their children the same so they don't continue this debt riddled nation full of foreclosures and bankruptcies. Choose like the above post says.....debt free lives over prestige. Examine your ability to pay and choose the best education for that....dont' take on hundreds of thousands of dollars so you can say your child got a ivey educaiton when there are public iveys out there that are equal in education and much more affordable.</p>

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<p>Atlmom,
That's exactly what we did. We explained to the kids our reasons for choosing a debt free education over prestige. They understood. We emphasized to them that it is the hard work they put into their education and their drive and ambitions that will take them where they want to go rather than the name of the school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
To top it off, the same parents typically haven't gone beyond high school, so can't offer much help as students apply to college and later look for internships and professional jobs.

[/quote]

Not everyone in that situation is poor. We have a lot of income, but don't have the education or experience to be of real help to our kids in this regard and some serious mistakes have been made as a result. First generation is first generation, regardless of income.</p>

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<p>"Not everyone in that situation is poor. We have a lot of income, but don't have the education or experience to be of real help to our kids in this regard and some serious mistakes have been made as a result. First generation is first generation, regardless of income."</p>

<p>You are right that first generation college students have challenges that students whose parents went to college don't have to face.</p>

<p>At the same time, a first generation college student who comes from a middle or upper class background in terms of the parents' income is in a much better position than is a first generation low income college student.</p>

<p>The more affluent student is more likely to have gone to decent schools, for instance, with teachers certified in the area that they are teaching, and guidance counselors who have the time to offer help to students who wish to go to college.</p>

<p>The more affluent student also is likely to be able to rely on their parents for things such as a computer, tutoring, transportation to ECs and college visits as well as money for other things that could help the student.</p>

<p>The more affluent student also is likely to have some basic things that most people on CC take for granted. This includes not having to move a couple of times each school year because their family can't pay their rent.</p>