Middle Class Injustice Fordham Admissions and Financial Aid

Parents Forum
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<p>Garland, we have some sort of mental connection going on in which I can anticipate your posts before you write them!</p>

<p>Seriously, though, thanks much. I couldn't have googled the things that I didn't know for D1, just hope to not make the same mistakes again. It's through experience or anecdote that someone who didn't go to college can learn that some majors don't work well with schools that have many core requirements, or that you should check carefully for scheduling of classes in the catalog before you even enroll. That might be obvious for someone who's already had that experience, but never in my wildest dreams did I think about the scheduling issue as a dealbreaker! But now I do know and I do ask here even if some posters would prefer I didn't because many posters have provided amazing information that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else. Yourself included!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Hawk@15 - Fordham is a Jesuit school and this may be typical of other Jesuit schools but I had a similar experience with my oldest. They tend to put all their available grant monies into Merit Scholarships and not need based grants.

[/quote]

With Fordham on her list, this information is priceless to us and I don't think I would have been able to Google it in the same way.</p>

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<p>The only Jesuit colleges we looked at were Georgetown (no merit scholarships) and BC (only 15 merit scholarships per class), so I don't think you can generalize Jesuit schools on merit.</p>

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<p>"Many of my students, first gen and low income, come from families that just have no context to know what questions to ask. It's a double whammy; they start out behind, "</p>

<p>Applause! What seem like common sense questions to ask and ways of asking questions (such as by using Google) are things that most of us learned by being taught by having educated parents or by being taught in school via a good education (Remember those research papers?)</p>

<p>The rare parents here who somehow learned these things on their own are probably geniuses. I am not joking. This kind of thinking isn't something that most people naturally do on their own.</p>

<p>I remember reading about how some professionals were teaching high school students how to use Google to research things. This was in a mentoring program. </p>

<p>One student wanted to write a story about lazy police, and she thought she could get info by Googling "donut eating cops". I kid you not. </p>

<p>Most people without a good education (which can include having had honors and AP courses in high school or going to a superb private high school) don't think to research things using search engines and don't have computers at their fingertips. They may not even know that public libraries are free and have people who are paid to help you. For that matter, if they live in low income areas, they may not have libraries within a reasonable distance of their homes.</p>

<p>When it comes to researching how to get to college, they also may not think to do this because they may assume that they can't afford college or that college isn't for people like them. They may not even have any people in their neighborhood who have graduated from high school.</p>

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<p>Aside from joining the "get over it" chorus for people who describe themselves as middle class but don't qualify for need-based aid, I have one practical suggestion. Call the admissions and financial aid departments at each school that your child is interested in, describe her stats and your income level, and ask blunt questions about how much financial aid that she is likely to be offered. I have found that many (although not all) schools are very forthcoming with quite specific information. With the info in hand, you can have a frank discussion with your child before she even applies.</p>

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<p>amen!!! Put the horse before the cart. Fewer disappointments.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The only Jesuit colleges we looked at were Georgetown (no merit scholarships) and BC (only 15 merit scholarships per class), so I don't think you can generalize Jesuit schools on merit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No generalizations about Jesuit schools except that they are good places to learn. </p>

<p>Our Northern Ohio Jesuit school, John Carroll University in University Heights (Tim Russert's alma mater), gives merit scholarships to about a quarter of the incoming freshmen.
Merit</a> Aid - John Carroll University</p>

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<p>Fordham is far from alone. My S was accepted into one of the top undergraduate journalism schools in the country, his top pick. They awarded him nothing in finanicial or merit aid, so he declined their offer. We knew after doing FAFSA that we weren't likely to get any aid, and that proved to be the case.</p>

<p>He did get nice merit offers from the other schools that accepted him, but nothing from his "second" choice. Keep in mind that merit awards can sometimes be negotiated upward (even from nothing), so long as the accepted student can demonstrate offers come from comparable schools. In our case, we sent copies of his other merit awards, and S finally received a merit offer from his second choice school -- where he is now enrolled.</p>

<p>So much of this is understanding the system. Few, if any, pay the "rack rate" tuition. It's in the interest of parent and child to approach tuition as something that can be negotiated. Go in with a business mindset, and don't take any of it personally.</p>

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<p>
[quote]

Are you venting because your child could not afford his/her #1 choice? Most of the people don't. Our DD will not attend her dream school because we could not afford it. The meirt aids are so competitive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Dad II, I thought your dd was attending Stanford in the fall and did indeed get aid that was, in your eyes, generous? Am I mistaken?</p>

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<p>My D was accepted at Fordham and received a nice Merit Scholarship but nothing else (except Stafford Loan). Given the COA, it just was not feasible. But I don't knock Fordham for that. They never claimed to meet our EFC. We knew it would be a reach financially and had our fingers crossed for more aid, it just wasn't to be. I still think it's a terrific place and maybe it will be right for grad school.</p>

<p>This week I received an email from Fordham requesting I complete a survey for them. A good part was dedicated to questions about financial aid at Fordham vs the college she will attend this Fall. I remember one question was basically at what point would additional aid have made a difference in our decision...$10,000, $6,000, $3,000 or even $1,000. </p>

<p>It appears Fordham is aware of the perception of their financial aid.</p>

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<p>PG--I may be wrong, but I believe that Stanford was her second choice. There was another extremely good school which she prefered which did not give as good aid. Of course, I'm sure her second choice will work out just fine, but from what I understand, aid did figure into the choice.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Few, if any, pay the "rack rate" tuition.

[/quote]
.</p>

<p>This is not true at all. many, many families pay the "rack rate". (been there, done that.)</p>

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<p>Mea Culpa - I admit it was a stretch to make such an assumption. :eek:</p>

<p>Anyway - St Joseph's - does in fact only give merit aid. Regardless of how needy you are. Hence, if you are poor you better be really really smart -
at the time what amazed me was the attitude of the financial aid office - What do you mean you don't want $25,000 in "alternative loans" each year?
truly bizarre.
St Joseph's does cater to the archdiocese of Philadelphia and probably Fordham caters to the Archdiocese of NY - in both are plenty of Catholic families with plenty of money so their merit scholarships look pretty good.
For St Joseph's at least - they could care less what your EFC is.</p>

<p>Bottom line - when investigating colleges - ASK if need based grant are available. A lesson I heard the hard way since after visiting twice and reading all the literature this was not apparent until the financial aid award came.</p>

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<p>I know what you are all saying. Part of the problem is that most of us hear how
available colleges, scholarships and aid are. We read articles and hear the PR on applying for financial aid. We see all the ads for saving for college. We get into our heads that college education is going to be available for our kids, and then WHACK!, our kids are ready for college and we are introduced the FAFSA, EFC, PROFILE, COA and the realities of how college costs are met. (get out that mirror). We also see the unfairness and quirks of the financial aid system. Those who are divorced/remarried see the problems with that situation. It is not the end of the world but it is an unpleasant reality check.</p>

<p>Zoosermom, I wish I could give you a hug (cyberhugs ( ) ( )) All I can tell you is that my husband and I are probably as qualified as anyone in the college admissions process. Both of us went to upper tier colleges on financial/merit aid. Went to grad/prof school on loans. Lived in areas, kids in schools where college was a high priority. Education a high priority in our house, where we spend the bulk of our money. Upper income brackets, saved for college, responsible financially. Yet we were blown away when our first started the process. We had heard so many stories from others and read so much stuff that we believed that just was not pertinant to our situation. We had no idea how to do things. I would have hired a college consultant in an instant, except the ones that I met had no more of an idea on how to approach a viable athletic recruit with a mixed record than I did. We met with several of them who had canned advice, some of which conflicted with some of the realities we had already encountered. The high school was not very helpful either with our specific situation. And the kid could not be less interested. He woke up midway through the process. So we made mistakes. Lots of them. And ran into some bad luck as well. Also hit some windfalls, by accident. So we should have been ready for number 2. Well, he was a performing arts kid, and we are not a performing arts family. His high school which has an excellent rep for college counseling was useless and actually counter productive in his process. Much misinformation from them that led to some bad situations. By the end of his process, after much money, time, grief, stress, ineptitude, mistakes, misunderstanding, ignorance, I can tell you I now know how to manuever an auditions app. How I wish I had known about CC at that time!! I discovered it AFTER going through this arduous process where we made every mistake that could be made. I am so envious of those who have used the MT thread here. </p>

<p>Kid #3 was easier because he was more typical. No special needs, no special hooks. A solid student taking hardest courses at a rigorous school with high but not spectacular SATs, with straight B's, not a single C or A. No idea what he wanted to do, no idea of where he wanted to go, no idea about anything regarding college. He slowly awakened during the process. We had also come to a point in our lives that we realized that despite our financial position, due to some events that occurred in the last several years that it was not going to be a wise thing for us to come up with $50K a year which is what a private education can cost, for our kids. A very painful realization, as on paper we could. It's a matter of what we should do, given other things in our lives, and some potential events. We didn't qualify for financial aid other than loans. We had saved, but not enough. Our son was bright, but not high merit material. I felt that he would be best served by a smaller school, smaller classes, personal attention, going away from home. This year was also a very rough year for competitive college admissions from what I have been hearing from the pros. Again, I thought about a college counselor, again I tried to squeeze out everything the school GC knew, again had to do my own research, and go agaist a lot my own beliefs and knowledge to find his particular niche. We did pretty well with him, but yes, we made a number of mistakes. Maybe with kid #4, we'll get it right.</p>

<p>Northstarmom, your posts have been invaluable to me, both pragmatically and emotionally. Hat's off to you. Zoosermom, hang in there. PM me if you want; I think I am in your neck of the woods.</p>

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<p>


I repeat: do not let ONE parent's bashing of a school cause you to remove it from your list. My daughter qualified for need-based and received a slightly stronger aid offer from Fordham than from U. of Chicago, which supposedly meets full need. I believe that Fordham packaged an award with about $7000 in merit aid and close to $12000 in need based grant aid. Of course my d. got a stronger offer, based wholly on need, from her current college -- but that's a different issue. </p>

<p>If you go back to the original post, it is clear that the "injustice" that the family is lamenting is in part because they don't qualify for all that much need-based aid. Most posters on CC who call themselves "middle class" and complain about the unfairness of it all in fact have 6-figure incomes, and they don't qualify for a lot of need-based aid anywhere. So their gripe isn't that the school didn't give them more need-based aid -- its that they didn't get the merit money they had hoped for. (Which, in their case, they did get from St. Joseph). </p>

<p>Merit money is entirely within the discretion of the college. It is not an injustice when the college chooses to direct its merit aid -- or provide a preferentially packaged need-based package -- to the students who are at the top of their applicant pool, or who meet their diversity goals, or who offer whatever else it is they want to attract. It's just how things work. </p>

<p>If you took from this post that your daughter should avoid Fordham because someone else's daughter didn't get a good package -- well, that would be the wrong message and her potential loss. The only way you will know what your own family will get is to go ahead and apply -- of course, after having "the talk" with your d. about your finances and needs. </p>

<p>Obviously if you -- or the OP -- do not feel that you qualify for enough need-based aid because your paper income is too high and the system does not account for all of your expenses or needs -- then you will have to look for colleges where merit aid is a possibility or where need-based aid may be enhanced with merit money. Colleges like that are definitely going to give variable packages, and some applicants will be winners, and some losers, in the competition for limited financial aid dollars. And all of those colleges are going to consider a variety of factors.</p>

<p>The problem comes when people start thinking of their college funding at a private college as an entitlement. It isn't. It is the college's dollars to dispense as they please. </p>

<p>But don't knock Fordham. Fordham is an excellent school and a good addition to any list. Like just about any other college, it may or may not give your family the aid you feel that you need. </p>

<p>I understand how disappointing it is when the money situation requires a child to give up on their first choice -- but that really is something that the parents need to discuss with their kids before the applications are sent.</p>

<p>And if you want good information about individual college financial aid packages, then CC is NOT a good source -- the college's own financial aid office is the best source of information about their own policies and practices,, as well as available merit scholarships and the criteria for awarding them, and the common data set; or web sites that present statistical info based on common data set info, is the best way to get info as to how aid is typically distributed.</p>

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<p>I agree with Calmom. There are so many mixed stories one hears and reads, that you truly have to do your own research. Also keep in mind that not all you hear or read is true. I know that many of the stories I heard were truly tall tales, big fish stories. Generous scholarships turned into minute financial aid when checked out. Colleges that did not give athletic scholarships were supposedly giving them out. Also a lot of college bashing that was exaggerated.
I think that Northstarmom's suggestion of investing in USNWR's college on line premier service is a good one. It can give you averages and amounts of merit/financial aid. It would help you avoid applying to a school like Penn State expecting a generous merit or financial aid package. If a school does not meet most kids' need, it is likely not to meet yours unless the kid is way, way up there in stats. That's the other thing about aid. You should be in the upper 5-10% of the students to expect a good package. Also male/female, geographics, rare majors can come into play. FOr instance, Johns Hopkins is going to love a French major whereas it has enough premeds to fill every seat. Fordham has enough Catholic NYC region kids with their midrange SATs that can pay the tuition. Why spend valuable merit money to lure them? A 1400 male from Ohio, is a whole different story.</p>

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<p>I have really appreciated the conversation about how first gen college students and parents struggle with the process. </p>

<p>I'm going to be speaking at a workshop for homeschoolers in a few weeks and will be trying to give them a kind of road map of how to find the information they need to help their children/students apply to college. Even for those homeschoolers who went to top schools, when your last contact with the process was 25 years ago and there's no guidance counselor to help, it's hard. I think the point is well made that you have to know what questions to ask to do your own research.</p>

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<p>Huguenot, one tidbit I can give you is that NY state is funny about the high school degree/GED thing. Schools here have given homeschoolers some trouble about that. You may want to get a list of such schools/states. Also, from my friends who have homeschooled, I have been told that kids aspiring to highly selective schools should have a bigger array of SAT2/AP test scores so that it is easier to compare the where they are subject wise to a national standard. This is even if a school does not specifically require SAT2s. Some colleges specifically address this for homeschoolers.</p>

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<p>To all the upper middle class parents complaining - I would trade in my elite education and attend a state university in a heartbeat to give my family health insurance. Please have some perspective.</p>

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<p>Zoosermom, not to divert the thread, but, I think you have done a phenomenal job with regard to the college process with ZG. I have always admired your planning and subsequent actions and wish I could have done half as well. ZG is turning out fantastic and appears to be making excellent, well reasoned choices, thanks to your guidance. It's not easy and google often lands one in the position of entirely too much data, and no where near enough information.</p>