<p>I am planning on applying to Bowdoin under ED in a couple of months..</p>
<p>There is a "Romance Languages" major at Bowdoin in which you study French, Spanish, and Italian all at once.</p>
<p>This definitely appeals to me but I just have one question: I know Middlebury has an excellent foreign language reputation (and it's on my list), I just seem to be generally more attracted to Bowdoin.</p>
<p>In comparison with Middlebury, how does the Language department at Bowdoin stack up? </p>
<p>Should I really reconsider my ED choice based on the alleged foreign language superiority of Middlebury?</p>
<p>I'm going to Bowdoin next year to major in French. Under Romance Languages, I don't think you have to study all 3--you study the one that you want to major in. When I went there to visit, I met with the head of the Romance Languages Department and he told me that because foreign languages are not required classes at Bowdoin, the department is small and full of people who are truly interested in the subject. I don't really know much more about it yet, but I don't think you should count Bowdoin out just because its foreign language program isn't very well known. That being said, Midd is definitely known for foreign languages, but if you feel more comfortable at Bowdoin, then Bowdoin's probably a better choice.</p>
<p>Actually, according to their viewbook and website, Bowdoin does indeed offer a major in "Romance Language", under which you study Spanish, Italian, and French at once. You also have the option of choosing one language to focus on.</p>
<p>I'm visiting both campuses next month (I'm from CA)...I'm staying overnight at Bowdoin to make sure it's my # 1.</p>
<p>Do you recommend that I talk with a language professor while there?</p>
<p>Hm, I didn't know that. I think it'd be a good idea to talk to a foreign language professor when you get there--the one I talked to definitely had opinions about other schools in the area.</p>
<p>if at all possible, don't visit until school is back in session. With ED you're locking yourself in, so you want to be SURE that its the right choice. Even more important than your major, IMHO, is the environment of the schools, the fellow students, etc. If you hate each day you spend there, attending the "best" program won't outweigh that. Just look on the adult forum thread "One-line descriptions of each LAC culture from enrolled student" and you'll see that even schools with very similar rankings can differ quite a bit.</p>
<p>So my advice is visit in the fall when classes are back in session. The admission office can arrange for an overnite stay in the dorms with a volunteer host, a much better way to get a feel for a school than a 3-hour tour. If you can't go in the fall, contact the admission office and see if they can put you in contact with students in your area home for summer so you can talk to them.</p>
<p>I can't speak directly to the foreign language programs, but if Bowdoin has the program you really want then you shouldn't attend Middlebury because its program is more famous. I would bet the faculty is just as skilled at instructing undergrads at Bowdoin as at Middlebury; there is no "magic" taught only at Mid that isn't available elsewhere. As a rant, this is the trouble with rankings. Sure, you can divide schools into broad categories; the level of teaching, the drive and skills of your fellow students, and so on are higher at Stanford than at San Jose State a few miles away. But to try and slice it further, to worry about the ranking of any school against others in its tier, is looking for differences that aren't significant or that even exist. End rant.</p>
<p>Agreed, however I will not have time to make the trip all the way to the East Coast during the Fall next year, I am in the Los Angeles area and August is the only chance I get. I really would like to apply early decision, and granted, it would be better to go when school was actually in session (I discovered Bowdoin too late in the game)...</p>
<p>Bowdoin and Midd are very similar schools, so be sure to check out Midd when you come back East in August to make sure you really prefer Bowdoin. Its hard to really get a sense of the colleges through their brochures and websites.</p>
<p>The benefit of an emphasis on languages at Midd is not so much the professors but how it affects the college community. Since Midd will invariably have more students interested in languages, there will be more courses offered and more speakers invited to discuss languages. I know Midd has a dorm specifically for foriegn language students (Le Chateau) whose basement has a dining room with tables specifically for speaking in certain languages. And it probably will attract the more famous language professors. Whether being famous makes you a better teahcer is uncertain.</p>
<p>since you face some constraints on travel I suggest you at least talk with current students at both schools. Students are pretty open and honest; they aren't trying to sell their school, they will tell you what its like because they want to be with students who are happy to be there and not people they conned into enrolling.</p>
<p>You've made a start with the forum here, but I think the admission office at the schools can put you in contact with current students (and there's bound to be plenty from CA). Call some of them up and if they're in your area invite them to lunch. Ask them what they like, dislike,what they wish they had known when they were looking for colleges, etc.</p>
<p>It's really not rocket science to compare, and you can do this with any LAC.</p>
<p>First, go to the websites of each college: (I am going to use French as my example). Bowdoin has four profs, and two teaching assistants. (Size of faculty counts, especially when you want to explore sub-interests - French Algeria? development of Haitian French? French literature in Africa? Indochine?) They teach on average a total of 6 courses a term: one is begininng French, one is intermediate French, and four electives. They have no foreign study options of their own (and hence don't set the bar.) They have (from what I can tell) no language dorms (I wasn't sure about tables.) You could e-mail the school and find out how many French majors there have been in the past 5 years - this is especially important when it comes to languages, as discussion groups, etc. take place among peers. Numbers COUNT! As do courses on language/cultural context.</p>
<p>Middlebury has 8 profs, 1 visiting lecturer, and 1 assistant. They teach on average 11 courses per term. They have their own study abroad program - so they set the bar. They have language tables, language dorm (I think). And again, you could e-mail to find out how many majors. Also think they sponsor a French film series with discussion groups.</p>
<p>You shouldn't attend any school because it is more famous, but because it meets your needs better. Kicking the tires on language programs just isn't that difficult. Once you begin to do this, you will find that, for languages, some LACs are downright excellent, and other, otherwise excellent LACs aren't even in the same ballpark. In this case, Bowdoin and Middlebury are NOT particularly similar schools - Bowdoin may be right for a particular student, and it is a great school, but it simply isn't comparable to Middlebury, at least as regards a potential French major.</p>
<p>True, but wouldn't the evidently good language reputation at Middlebury attract more candidates that have my stats; those that are oriented more toward international affairs? (Studied abroad for a year, started international club at school, etc etc)---thus creating more competition for me admissions wise? Also, I am not a fan of cut-throat academics either, I know at Bowdoin it's challenging but the students aren't studying around the clock---what's the situation like at Middlbury in regards to academic competition?</p>
<p>No idea how the admissions thing would go, except that while they may have more competititon, they would also need to have more students to support a robust department.</p>
<p>A really good way to compare is to choose a particular term and look at the comparative offerings for just that term - and if you think, for example, that Bowdoin is enough, then go for it! Here are some examples:</p>
<p>(I put up these four so you could compare the robustness of the Middlebury/Smith offerings with the relative paucity of the Bowdoin/Williams ones. Again, each student will have to decide for him/herself what is sufficient. There are no right answers - it's just part of doing "due diligence".)</p>
<p>One measure of the focus on foreign languages at a school would be the number of intensely committed students who go on to get a PhD. in a foreign language. This number will be small at any other school, but the relative differences may shed some light on the nature of the school, its language departments, and the interests of its students.</p>
<p>Here is the list of schools that have produced two or more PhDs in Foreign Language and Linguistics per 1000 graduates over the most recent 10 year period. Middlebury's strength in this area is confirmed by its position near the top of the list. However, given its unusual focus on language programs, including its many summer language institutes and study-abroad programs, I'm a little surprised Middlebury doesn't produce more PhDs in these fields.</p>
<hr>
<p>Number of PhDs per 1000 graduates<br>
Academic field: Language and Linguistics<br>
PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Formula: Total PhDs divided by Total Grads, multiplied by 1000 </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period<br>
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law. </p>
<p>1 Bryn Mawr College 8.0
2 Grinnell College 7.7
3 Reed College 7.7
4 Kalamazoo College 7.0
5 Amherst College 6.5
6 Swarthmore College 6.3
7 Pomona College 5.6
8 Yale University 5.3
9 University of Chicago 5.2
10 Harvard University 5.0
11 Bennington College 5.0
12 Wellesley College 4.8
13 Williams College 4.7
14 Oberlin College 4.7
15 Lawrence University 4.6
16 Carleton College 4.6
17 Mount Holyoke College 4.5
18 Barnard College 4.3
19 Haverford College 4.3
20 Dartmouth College 4.3
21 St John's College (both campus) 4.3
22 University of the South 4.2
23 University of PR Rio Piedras Campus 4.2
24 Knox College 4.1
25 Middlebury College 4.1
26 Whitman College 3.8
27 Macalester College 3.8
28 Smith College 3.8
29 St Olaf College 3.6
30 Georgetown University 3.5
31 Wabash College 3.4
32 Columbia University in the City of New York 3.4
33 Goucher College 3.3
34 Connecticut College 3.2
35 Davidson College 3.2
36 Princeton University 3.2
37 Sweet Briar College 3.1
38 Occidental College 2.9
39 Hamilton College 2.9
40 Colorado College 2.8
41 Wesleyan University 2.8
42 Rhodes College 2.6
43 Washington University 2.6
44 Rosary College 2.6
45 Central College (Pella, IA) 2.6
46 Agnes Scott College 2.6
47 Randolph-Macon Woman's College 2.6
48 Hampshire College 2.5
49 Hollins College 2.5
50 College of William and Mary 2.5
51 Earlham College 2.5
52 Stanford University 2.4
53 Brown University 2.4
54 Chestnut Hill College 2.3
55 Dickinson College 2.3
56 University of California-Berkeley 2.2
57 Sarah Lawrence College 2.2
58 Lewis and Clark College 2.2
59 University of Pennsylvania 2.1
60 Houghton College 2.1
61 Kenyon College 2.1
62 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 2.0
63 Centre College 2.0
64 Northwestern Univ 2.0
65 Rice University 2.0
66 Brandeis University 2.0
67 Duke University 2.0
68 Asbury College 1.9
69 Bates College 1.9
70 Vassar College 1.9
71 Bard College 1.9
72 Southern California College 1.9
73 University of California-Santa Cruz 1.9
74 University of Virginia, Main Campus 1.9
75 Washington and Lee University 1.8
76 College of Wooster 1.8
77 CUNY Hunter College 1.8
78 Cornell College 1.7
79 Colby College 1.7
80 Beloit College 1.7
81 Converse College 1.7
82 William Penn College 1.7
83 Goshen College 1.7
84 Bowdoin College 1.6
85 Cornell University, All Campuses 1.6
86 College of the Holy Cross 1.6
87 Albertus Magnus College 1.5
88 Calvin College 1.5</p>
<p>That's because the number or percentage of Ph.D.s in a language is absolutely irrelevant for the vast majority of students, whose future occupations may include foreign service, international business, global non-profits, translator, cultural consultant, tourism professional, banking, CIA agent, or high school teacher. I can hardly think of a measure more irrelevant than a French professor's ability to clone herself. You might have better posted the number of French chefs in 5-star restaurants (actually, I mean that seriously.)</p>
<p>That would be an interesting list, too. Have you seen any data on French Chefs? I would guess that Johnson & Wales does well in that category.</p>
<p>It seems to me that many of the schools known for strong language programs, including Middlebury, produce relatively large numbers PhDs in languages. For example, Middlebury barely cracks the top 100 in overall PhD production, but is number 25 in production of language PhDs. Coincidence? I don't think so. </p>
<p>I think the statistics support the perception of Middlebury as a strong school for languages. Similarly, Smith and Bryn Mawr and Amherst outperform their overall PhD production in their language departments, again indicating that languages are a particular strength at these schools. Conversely, Swarthmore slightly underperforms its overall PhD production in the language departments, indicating that foreign languages are not a particular area of emphasis.</p>
<p>Of course, most language majors don't go on to get PhDs. But, that is true across the entire spectrum of colleges and universities. The relative production of PhDs still tells us something about the schools, their students, and their departments.</p>
<p>I'm taking French 205 next year (I think). The reason that the department at Bowdoin is smaller than a lot of similar schools is because language courses are not required at Bowdoin. At Colby, I think, the language department is much bigger because a foreign language is a distribution requirement. I'm not sure what the situation at Midd is. As far as language tables go, I remember hearing that they do exist at Bowdoin. As far as I can tell, there are plenty of course options for a potential language major at Bowdoin. The department may be smaller at Bowdoin than at Midd (and hey, Bowdoin's a smaller school) but it's definitely there.</p>
<p>Yes, I have seen the "Language Tables" part on the website which was somewhat comforting. </p>
<p>I have to agree with mini---ultimately I plan on going into international business....</p>
<p>But that's the other thing, if I minor in Economics (to get my foot in the door in Grad school I suppose), wouldn't Bowdoin be the better choice for the social sciences? I am completely lost, everyone is making such good points on this thread that I have gained even more questions than I did to begin with!</p>
<p>Another thing, I don't want to limit myself to French, I would love to throw Italian in the whole bunch, which Bowdoin could arrange. I believe at other schools to accomplish this I must double major, which I don't think I could handle.</p>
<p>"Of course, most language majors don't go on to get PhDs. But, that is true across the entire spectrum of colleges and universities. The relative production of PhDs still tells us something about the schools, their students, and their departments."</p>
<p>And I'm suggesting to you that, for language majors coming out of the schools, it not only doesn't it reflect strength, but actually might reflect weakness in the school having its students go out and do the things the vast majority of language majors would really like to be doing with their degrees. It would be like using Ph.D.s in business as a measure of the strength of a business school or engineering, when, for the vast majority, that is not a particularly desired or desirable outcome.</p>
<p>Scott - Bowdoin will give you more than enough to accomplish a decent major, maybe even a double major, and is a wonderful, wonderful school with tremendous resources. You asked, however, for a comparison of Middlebury and Bowdoin, and I was just trying to demonstrate how you could go about comparing, without coming to any definitive conclusions FOR YOU.</p>
<p>Yepyep, you can't really go wrong. If you're more comfortable at Bowdoin, it's a better school for you. If you feel better about Midd, then that's a better school for you. You will certainly be able to accomplish whatever you plan to after getting a degree from either school (or any other top LAC for that matter).</p>
<p>"I'm taking French 205 next year (I think). The reason that the department at Bowdoin is smaller than a lot of similar schools is because language courses are not required at Bowdoin."</p>
<p>It's a nice thought, but it turns out to be false. NONE of the four schools I compared (Middlebury, Williams, Bowdoin, Smith) has a language requirement (at both Middlebury and Williams, languages can be used to fulfill distributional requirements; I don't know about Bowdoin; Smith doesn't have any distributional requirements). And if you look at the offerings, you'll quickly see that the differences among the four is in language/cultural context courses, and in upper-level electives, precisely those courses that a major would likely to be enrolled in. In other words, the overall strength of the program.</p>
<p>(P.S. If I were choosing between the two, I'd go to Bowdoin. But then I wouldn't be a French major! ;))</p>