<p>Can someone please enlighten me why is there so much of a difference between midwest and northeast colleges? Midwest colleges seemed to be more down-to-earth, friendly (evident by their admission offices) whereas Northeast colleges seemed to be more preppy. Of course there are always some exception like Vassar but it's a generalisation which I think stands on the whole. What causes this discrepancy when most people in these colleges are rich white people?</p>
<p>Well, there are cultural differences between the midwest and the northeast...</p>
<p>What's up with thinking that the northeast is just the cities of Boston, NY, Philadelphia? Most of Pennsylvania and New York is forests and farmland. We have approximately 100 4 year colleges in Pennsylvania. I don't think the majority of them are preppy. What is preppy anyway? A way of dress (button down or polo shirts) or a way of thinking - Republicans and frats?</p>
<p>I am not sure exactly what you mean. Northeastern colleges run the gammit from Wesleyan to Colby, similarly midwestern colleges can range from Oberlin to Miami Ohio.</p>
<p>" What causes this discrepancy when most people in these colleges are rich white people?"</p>
<p>Not to generalize, but Kenyon is among the least economically diverse colleges, with one of the highest "entitlement" indices in the country. Among liberal arts colleges in the northeast, only Trinity, Bates, and Middlebury rank higher. Every other major northeastern liberal arts college is less preppy/more economically diverse. Kenyon also ranks close to the bottom of major liberal arts colleges in the percentage of Pell Grants (a surrogate for low-income students), and close to the bottom in institutional financial aid per student (ranks above Davidson and Washington and Lee, but not many others.) It also has among the whitest student bodies, even more white than Davidson and much more white than Middlebury (though less so than W&L).</p>
<p>Perhaps this was meant as a joke. ;)</p>
<p>To understand the differences, one needs to look way back a few centuries.</p>
<p>Higher education was established in the northeast in the precolonial era, largely for ministerial training if I recall correctly (no flames if I'm wrong, just corrections.) While public education started in the NE, it was focused for many decades on primary and limited secondary education. By the time the Morrill Act (1862) jumped started public higher ed, private higher ed was well established in the east. So public support of higher ed was less critical (and no doubt opposed by some of the existing privates) back east. To this day, state support of higher ed seems to me to be less substantial in the northeastern states.</p>
<p>To put in simpler terms, the difference is that private colleges in the northeast are older and prouder.</p>
<p>Mini,</p>
<p>What is an "entitlement indicie"?</p>
<p>An index I invented that measures a) percentage of students receiving no need-based aid; b) percentage of students who attended private schools; and c) percentage of low-income students as measured by percentage of Pell Grant recipients.</p>
<p>Kenyon is among the highest LACs in the country on the index (actually, 6th, behind Davidson, W&L, Trinity, Bates, and Middlebury.)</p>
<p>You might also look at where the most elite prep schools are located as an explanation for the "preppiness" of many New England colleges and universities.</p>
<p>I am interested in this topic because my daughter seems to be drawn to the midwest colleges. She says that she doesn't want to go to schools with a lot of rich privileged people (and I'm kind of thinking well, that really kind of eliminates all the private colleges, doesn't it?) But she seems to think the schools in the midwest are less pretentious? or something? Anyway, I have no experience with east coast colleges, so I don't know if she is perceiving something <em>real</em> or not. I am hoping to take her to Boston to look at a couple of schools (probably Wellesley and Tufts), so we'll see what she thinks then. Of course, one can't really get any more laid back than CA, but she wants to go out of state for college. My daughter is going through a phase of being really exasperated with people who can't imagine what it is like to not be able to buy pretty much anything you want, and don't have a clue as to what it is like to not being able to do something because it costs too much.</p>
<p>It's real, and in the long run, it is where the "prestige" comes from. Move St. Olaf and Earlham to Massachusetts today and they would immediately become two of the most selective colleges in the country - and they offer things today that none of the east coast LACs do. But, putting Kenyon aside (which is preppier/wealthier than virtually any of the eastern LACs), the midwest LACs tend to have poorer student bodies, less likely to come from elite private schools, and are often less cosmopolitan than their east coast peers. </p>
<p>Friendlier? I'm not sure what that means. I come originally from NYC, and think New Yorkers are on the whole the friendliest people on earth.</p>
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I am interested in this topic because my daughter seems to be drawn to the midwest colleges. She says that she doesn't want to go to schools with a lot of rich privileged people (and I'm kind of thinking well, that really kind of eliminates all the private colleges, doesn't it?) But she seems to think the schools in the midwest are less pretentious?
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<p>As a general stereotype, I think she has a valid point. It's largely a reflection of the "style" and "culture" of the midwest versus the northeast. However, there are certainly exceptions to the rule. And, in fairness, a lot of what people assume to be "pretentiousness" in the northeast is really not that so much as a certain brusqueness of speech and style. </p>
<p>In many ways, California can be very pretentious as well...just somewhat hidden beneath a veneer of "laidback". For example, the competition to collect AP courses and achieve classrank appears to be MUCH stronger in the California magnet schools than in is in New England schools.</p>
<p>I think the other thing you have to understand is that most of the kids who attend midwest private schools come from the midwest. And the vast majority of midwest kids attend public schools K-12. The upper midwest has excellent public schools so most kids go to them. So you don't have as much of the culture that seems to come from the eastern prep schools (which is where the term originated in the first place.) The midwest is more homogeneous as far as income goes. There is probably a lower percentage of people at either end of the economic spectrum than there is on either coast.</p>
<p>I grew up in Pennsylvania and moved to Wisconsin as an adult. In our state, the vast majority of college bound students attend our excellent state schools. My guess is that that is true in MN, IA, and probably IL. People here are less likely to be attracted to a "name" college so the students who attend private colleges are there because they have found something that they want, not because they are trying to impress a future employer or grad school. I am not implying that everyone who attends eastern schools are there for the name, but if you spend any time at all on this board you know that many folks apply to certain schools because of that.</p>
<p>That being said, I think there are probably quite a few schools in the northeast that are not all preppy. You just might have to look a little harder to find them.</p>
<p>Another phenom to be aware of is SES segregation at New England schools. I've heard enough cases of kids from public schools being totally snubbed by the prep school kids to believe it is not a sporadic thing.</p>
<p>There is a culture in the northeast that is rare in the midwest - the nursery school/ prep school/summer camp culture. You have kids there that have spend their entire lives together, winter and summer. This can carry over into the more elite new england schools, particularly.</p>
<p>These ultra preppies are obviously in a minority, but it pays to be aware of the issue.</p>
<p>
I understand how your daughter feels. But I disagree with the basic premise that 'snobbiness' differs by region -- to me it's just a question of how it's demonstrated.</p>
<p>I grew up in Southern California, and believe me, there are plenty of rich, privileged people there. And I lived in a suburb of Minneapolis for many years, and again, I did run into very affluent people -- mostly nice, but some snobs too. And now I live in a suburb of Boston, where you'd expect to find a lot of snobby people, but I still meet many people from a variety of backgrounds and most are very nice. So I think that it's human nature to want to segregate people by status, even though it's not a very attractive quality.</p>
<p>As far as schools go, I think that you'd probably find less snobbish behavior at many highly selective schools than at a lower tier. The kids who attend the most selective schools come from all over the country and the world. Those I've met at my son's school seem to be very down to earth, and none strike me as typical rich preppie types. </p>
<p>So I think you have to just look at each school individually, to get a sense of its atmosphere. I'd guess that you may find some pretentious students at some of the large state schools -- they may not have travelled as much outside their region and could have a geo-centric outlook. Just guessing here.</p>
<p>Newmassdad, See, that's why I don't like to be lumped into the northeast group. </p>
<p>"There is a culture in the northeast that is rare in the midwest - the nursery school/ prep school/summer camp culture. You have kids there that have spend their entire lives together, winter and summer. This can carry over into the more elite new england schools, particularly."</p>
<p>It's rare here and I'm guessing in most of PA, with the exception of Philadelphia. While my son may well have gone to school with the same set of kids in pre-school, elementary, middle school and high school, his camp was boy scout camp and the reason is that we only have one middle school and high school.... I'm not saying that there aren't private schools, just that they are the exception, not the norm.</p>
<p>The majority of students in the Northeast go to public schools and have parents with average incomes. It's just here on CC that you get the impression that Gilmore Girls is a reality show.</p>
<p>Shennie, I know that you attended Allegheny in good old PA, and if you look at the stats at most our state schools and even a good number of private ones, the majority of students are from Pennsylvania. I know many parents that tell their kids that there is no reason to look out of state when there are dozens of schools within a three hour drive.</p>
<p>mini, I am surprised that you've said that Kenyon is preppier/wealthier than any other colleges in the East!! I do agree that diversity is lacking at Kenyon but then I am impressed with the way the admissions office improve diversity on campus. I myself is a URM and yes, I've received a great financial aid package from Kenyon. I think a reason why there's very few people who receive financial aid at Kenyon is because Kenyon's endowment is significantly less compared to many of her east coast peers... standing at around 150 million compare to the 400 or 500 million endowment.</p>
<p>Btw, I do agree that many schools in PA is an exception to that generalization.</p>
<p>kathiep - I don't actually think of PA in the same way as the NE, especially western PA. What I find interesting is that PA has many, many private colleges, but WI has about 27 I believe. When I was growing up near Pittsburgh, you only went to state school if you couldn't get in anywhere else. (I think that has changed quite a bit in PA in the last 25 years.) But here in WI, many people think it pretty strange to even think about sending kids to private colleges. I think that attitude is pretty prevalent throughout the upper midwest. It is just a different mindset overall. My 3 have (or will) all attend privates. It is not that we don't like our state schools, but my husband and I both flourished at the small school environment of Allegheny. We wanted our kids to have that same environment if they wanted it. But we are a bit of an oddity in many ways.</p>
<p>Only 43% of Kenyon's students (41% of freshmen) qualify for need-based financial aid. That's a very low number.</p>
<p>It does look like Kenyon concentrates signficant portions of their aid on merit-discounting. 22% of their students (27% of freshmen) receive merit discounts averaging $11,000 per year.</p>
<p>Those stats suggest a school that specifically targets wealthier customers.</p>
<p>I grew up in the Midwest, went to college there and as an adult lived in San Francisco and New York City. I now live in Asia, but my son attends an LAC in rural Massachusetts and I have family literally allover the country. A</p>
<p>lthough there are without doubt regional personality differences I think the universal American cultural psyche is more widespread and homogenous than you would expect. Media television, movies, internet are great equalizers and students no longer have to travel to be exposed to intellectual and cultural ideas. In short, you find very similar kids from very similar households all over the country. There are more similarities than differences.</p>
<p>To me what makes the biggest difference between a same-same comparison between a Midwestern college and a Northeastern college (by same-same I mean same level of academics, same size, same environment rural/urban, same culture Greek/hippie) is access to Eastcoast cities, not just physically but mentally and culturally. </p>
<p>Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Milwaukee all have their share of that American homogeneity that I referred to and all have respectable cultural attractions. They are sophisticated cities but they do not offer the same volume of intellectual and artistic stimulus as New York and Washington and to a lesser extent Boston. The advantage, in my opinion, of the Eastcoast schools is that they can draw on this pool of thinkers and doers, this energy of government and commerce and the arts, which is felt in the trickle-down effect of visiting speakers, weekend junkets, internship opportunities. Although all of this is findable in the Midwest, isnt as vibrant or powerful there; its a difference of scale.</p>
<p>My son visited and seriously considered schools in the Midwest. In the end he chose to go with what he thought was the best of both worlds in a rural connotation: friendly, optimistic, laidback environment with reasonable access to his hometown, Manhattan. Maybe this is Eastcoast chauvinism, but as a born and bred Midwesterner I have to see the advantages of hugging the coasts.</p>
<p>As far as the diversity score of Midwestern versus Eastcoast schools, I think this is going to change a lot in the next few years as diversity of all kinds continues to be a draw and as colleges continue to seek to identify and attract URMs. Its not easy for even highly rated schools like Kenyon or Carlton or Grinnell to compete with the ivy league or AWS for the very small pool of academically qualified URMs, but I do see this as a temporary issue which will change as the super-selectives become even tougher to get into and even URMs are forced to consider schools that are academic equals in what are perceived as less desireable geographic locations.</p>