Midwestern colleges for a California girl?

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm in the rather annoying predicament of having too many colleges on my "maybe" list of colleges, most of them in the Midwest. I was hoping some posters who have looked into these colleges (I live too far away to visit) might be able to give some insight to differentiate between them… the Parents Forum is so helpful for those of us looking into lesser known/ranked colleges :)</p>

<p>Brief summary: 4.0/2390 stats, looking for substantial merit $$ and challenging academics (honors program would be nice). Potential chemistry or biology or economics major. Don’t want a very politically liberal campus. The current “I’m sold” list includes, among others, Rhodes, St. Olaf, Santa Clara, and Hillsdale. On the “maybe” list: Ohio Wesleyan, Hope, Wooster, Denison, and Centre. (Can you tell I read Colleges that Change Lives?)</p>

<p>Ohio Wesleyan: nice scholarships, good science programs. Nothing exactly “wrong” with the college, but nothing particularly exciting either.</p>

<p>Hope: excellent guaranteed scholarship, great chemistry program. I’m concerned about the academic environment—one CC poster specifically warned me that the student body isn’t intellectual at all. Could any other posters speak to this?</p>

<p>Wooster: very impressive academics and good scholarships. From my research on various other college review websites, I am a little concerned about prevalent drinking on campus.</p>

<p>Denison: yay for competitive full tuition! Denison doesn’t seem to be as academic as Wooster, though, and seems to have an alcohol problem as well…</p>

<p>Centre: I cheated, this isn’t actually Midwestern. But Kentucky’s pretty darn close ;) Planning to throw my name in the hat for Brown Fellows (so a merit reach, I guess), but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of information out there about Centre otherwise.</p>

<p>Suggestions? Advice? Cold, hard slaps of reality? All are welcome :)</p>

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<p>None of the colleges you list can compare with Wisconsin, Michigan or some of the other Midwestern flagships for academics. You can be conservative on a large campus. That book “Colleges…Lives” sounds like a resource for students who are not as academically strong as you are from my take on the schools discussed. It also seems to emphasize liberal arts, not the sciences and schools you might not otherwise consider. ALL colleges change lives.</p>

<p>Unfortunately many of the schools with many of your academic peers do not need to recruit students with merit aid. Do you want to be a big fish in a small pond? Do you want to give up science research opportunities to attend a small conservative college? </p>

<p>You will find that many in the sciences are more conservative at the more liberal schools than you expect (or at least apolitical in the classroom). Also, don’t let political views deter you from the best schools for your intended field. You can join the Young Republicans at known liberal schools. Also be aware that the students at the public schools in the Midwest will reflect their hometowns. </p>

<p>Figure out your priorities. Academics or not being challenged intellectually- in science or your beliefs. Rework your list from a different perspective. Northwestern, Washington U (St Louis), Notre Dame and other private Midwestern schools have a much higher academic reputation (ie similar academic peer group) and are not considered liberal. Do not be afraid of having your beliefs challenged- learning to defend them is educational.</p>

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<p>FYI, the sciences are part of the liberal arts. The term “liberal arts” refers to the arts AND sciences so subjects like math, physics, biology, chemistry, etc. are all offered at liberal arts colleges. You will just not find too many liberal arts colleges offering “pre-professional” major like engineering or accounting.</p>

<p>Just wanted to clarify.</p>

<p>Besides it sounds like the OP has a clear preference for small colleges so large Midwest state flagships don’t sound like they will meet the need/desire in this case.</p>

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<p>However, the liberal arts schools tend not to have great depth in courses or facilities that large U’s or science/tech schools do. It is important to be able to have the opportunities not available at small schools. The OP needs to order her priorities- first class science or being at a school fitting her comfort zone politically. There are so many science opportunities missing at LACs that other U’s have. Visiting lecturers, seminars, working in grad labs. Not being in a minority, having many others who share your interest. I know I had fun with some elective science courses that a small school would never offer- 20 or so students in the whole course.</p>

<p>OP- you may need to rethink your idea of a small school. They may not offer you the academic opportunities in your chosen field. Do not be afraid of larger schools. Every large school is a bunch of smaller units. With your academic credentials you are likely to be in Honors classes and get to know your professors at even huge U’s. The rest of the campus outside of your dorm and classes doesn’t need to matter.</p>

<p>Rethink your comfort zone.</p>

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<p>Check out Case Western Reserve. Highly regarded in the sciences, I view it as politically benign (kids more interested in doing well than political activism), and is known for good merit aid. Good luck.</p>

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<p>wis75 - OP wants/needs merit aid. Hard (impossible?) to come by as an OOS student at schools like Michigan and Wisconsin.</p>

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<p>Students drink a lot on most campuses. Seriously. I promise. Many smoke too.</p>

<p>Can you say why you want to avoid liberal campuses, and what you would consider “liberal”? Do you mean liberal politically, or socially, philosophically?</p>

<p>Midwestern schools that come to mind for an academically talented student like you would be U. of Chicago, Northwestern, U. of Michigan, then smaller schools like Oberlin, Kenyon, Denison, Lawrence, Grinnell, Carleton, MacAlaster, College of Wooster, Beloit- but these may be too liberal for you.</p>

<p>Why the Midwest? There are a lot of schools in the Northeast you might like. Check out Clark U. in Worcester (merit scholarships). You might even consider Ivies (Dartmouth, Cornell, UPenn as well as HYP), or Little Ivies (Amherst, Williams, Tufts) or seven sisters (Smith, Wellesley). But again many are too liberal. The top schools have amazing financial aid, if you qualify (Income under $180k).</p>

<p>Are you avoiding Stanford, Berkeley, Pomona and other CA schools due to politics?</p>

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<p>That is truewis75 about the quality of the midwest unis, but I can relate to not wanted to attend one, and I chose not to attend a college with 40,000 kids for my undergrad. My only thought was the University of Chicago which is bigger than an LAC but much much smaller than the other midwest unis although it feels like the reports on merit are quite mixed - some say they are generous, some say they are not.</p>

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<p>Although I would disagree with the poster who said the CTCL are less rigorous academically, they are more creative and personalized in their teaching and philosophy, not less rigorous.</p>

<p>I do agree with Carleton, Grinnell, Kenyon and Oberlin. Northwestern and U of C are not that large but they are certainly more structured (although Kenyon is pretty traditionally structured as well).</p>

<p>I guess my question is, why did you pick those schools? Are you looking for a more liberal academic philosophy? Do you have LDs? On most campuses you will find a mix of political bends, most campuses have Young Republican clubs (not sure about Tea Party influences).</p>

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<p>One thing about Centre College. They thought they were receiving a large endowment ($250M), however the endowment had to be withdrawn because a business deal went sour. I know the endowment was to help with scholarships in certain fields. I don’t know how it will affect scholarships but it can’t help.</p>

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<p>Woah, ok. OP here-- I think some clarification is in order :)</p>

<p>I should have been more clear in the original post: I was hoping some parents could help me narrow down the “maybe” colleges instead of adding more to the list. I appreciate those suggestions so much (and might look into a few) but I do need some help with the list I already have. Any advice re: OWU, Hope, Wooster, Denison, Centre? (Thanks lvvcsf!)</p>

<p>Why small colleges: visited UCs (my state of residence), didn’t like them, vastly preferred LACs.</p>

<p>Why the “second/third tier” schools: quite simply, I need substantial merit money that the higher ranked universities don’t offer (2k National Merit won’t cut it). While I do have a few merit reaches on the list, that’s not what I was hoping to discuss on this thread.</p>

<p>Why the Midwest: for whatever reason there seem to be a lot of great LACs with lots of merit aid to offer in the Midwest. I’ve done my merit homework, and these were the schools I came up with. compmom, I am not deliberately avoiding CA colleges-- I will probably apply to Claremont McKenna as a reach.</p>

<p>Why the political thing: this has been a sticky point on every thread I’ve made, and I didn’t intend for it to be that way… suffice it to say that I consider myself a political (especially fiscal) conservative and don’t want to be one of only a couple of such students on an overwhelmingly leftist campus. That’s all. Politics is not my top priority in a college, just a preference that I’ve been keeping in mind.</p>

<p>Thanks for all your replies :)</p>

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<p>OP- I would not describe any of the colleges on your maybe list as having a particularly intellectual student body (Wooster probably comes closest). You will find kids with strong academic and intellectual interests at every college in the world, but if you are looking for a large cohort of kids most of your maybe schools might fall short (first of all, they are small. Second of all… well, you do the math.)</p>

<p>A longtime poster here- Mini- who is an expert on substance abuse, has posted statistics before that show that by and large, rural schools have a bigger drinking problem than urban schools. Some of that is likely a by-product of there being fewer entertainment options. Just something to consider.</p>

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<p>Visit Rhodes. It’d be an excellent choice. Great academics- especially sciences, drop dead gorgeous campus, lots of internships, very mainstream philosophically (not liberal - not conservative)and 4 seasons even if it is a little more south. Great aid. For a long time it was my daughter’s top choice until she went closer to home.
I know you don’t want to add to your list but it does sound like you might be describing Creighton in Omaha. Excellent aid, academics, smaller sized university etc. Check it out.</p>

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<p>Agree with iadorking!!</p>

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<p>Look at rice U in Houston. It does offer some merit money, incuding some full rides, if I remember correctly. It is small, LAC-like size, but with great sciences, great opportunities, beautiful campus. It is not conservative, per se, but has a wide range of types on campus, including some conservative and religious groups. Its huge endowment and small size makes for wonderful opportunities, and it is a better match for you academically than most of the schools you have mentioned. If I were you, I would cast my net widely, and apply to a larger group of schools and see what offers you get.</p>

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<p>You don’t want more on your list (sorry), but you might check out University of Rochester too. 5,500 undergrads, great physics department with tons of opportunities in and out of the classroom, in NY but really is Midwest, offers good merit aid, student body full of students who take their studies seriously without having a negative, competitive feel. And pretty apolitical. </p>

<p>Of the ones you mention (OWU, Hope, Wooster, Denison, Centre?), I don’t know much about them, but I believe OWU has a conservative leaning. Centre is actually kind of liberal I think? (Bummer to hear about them losing the $250 million donation) I’ve driven through Wooster’s campus and it’s lovely and charming. I know even less about Hope and Denison. If you have enough to apply to a lot of schools, you might just apply to all 5 and see how the money plays out. Good luck!</p>

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<p>My niece and nephew both loved Hope, they and their parents were very impressed with it. From what they say, it is in downtown Holland and you can walk to quite a few downtown shops. They were impressed with the loyalty of the alumni. </p>

<p>A good friend of mine had a D who went to OWU and really liked it. They are very politically conservative and she picked it over Hillsdale and Rhodes among others. My S had a very good friend who went to Denison and had a great time there. I can’t say about how the party scene is there but I suspect that it would be no worse than Wooster or OWU. They all attract the same type of students. I would say that having known students who went to most all of the schools you mentioned, Denison at least as much as I know, had kids who were better students. That may vary from my very small sample. </p>

<p>A school not mentioned but one that a good friend of my S attended is Wittenberg. She needed merit aid and Wittenberg gave her the best package. She was a very smart sweet girl who was not a partier in HS. The other school in Michigan that people mention with Hope is Calvin which I know is a conservative school. My niece also liked Kalamazoo but I don’t think it would be as conservative. They do draw more students from all over the country. </p>

<p>One thing to keep in mind is how easy it will be to get home. From Hope you will have to fly out of Grand Rapids. The nearest airport to me is GRR and while it is very convenient to get in and out of, you might want to check how easy it is to get from here to there. Same thing with the Ohio schools, most of which you’ve mentioned you would fly out of Columbus.</p>

<p>Also I met a young woman this summer who went to Alma in Michigan and she was very impressive and loved Alma.</p>

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<p>blossom, honestly there are many small colleges in the midwest where drinking is not huge part of the culture and a full time sport and frankly many would consider 90% of the colleges “rural”…I think one needs to be careful of that particular generality. </p>

<p>I think Kalamazoo is abit more liberal than others on the OPs list. I would not compare Calvin and Hope. Calvin is a strongly religious school that extends right to the professors that are hired. While Hope has ties to the church the schools don’t attract the same students and those students that are cross admits are members of Christian Reformed Churches I suspect.</p>

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<p>OP, Blossom, can you provide some data on Wooster’s student body being more intellectual than the other colleges listed?</p>

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<p>Based on your criteria, I would say Wooster and Centre are the closest to what you want (Wooster because “compulsory” research = more intellectual student body, Centre because the general academic quality is great and more intellectual than in other colleges from that region).
Hope isn’t intellectual but it is conservative (Calvin is more intellectual but also more religious), Denison has a problem with alcohol (recent stats are sobering, ahem, pardon the pun - esp. wrt to alcohol poisoning/ethylic comas - the administration has taken steps to curb the problem but it’s far from fixed), and OWU would be a runner up in that it’s mild, “less” intellectual than Wooster and Centre, less preprofessional and less religious than Hope.
I do second looking at Rhodes and URochester; you might enjoy Dickinson, too.</p>