<p>I've always been aware of this phenomenon - the academic admits of life if you will. I used to call them the "weirdly smart", but now that we are talking about kids, let's call them the "outlier smarts". They are different. I work with a couple of guys like this - one of them was what they call a Topper in India, essentially the guy who got the highest score on the IIT entrance exam the year he took it. He's just different in his brain. We don't need extra tests to find these guys, they stand out.</p>
<p>And for the rest of us (this is why I stay anonymous here, so I can say these obnoxious things) well I was always the smartest of the normal smarts. Every now and again I would show signs of outlier smartness, but those were just moments, little flickers, and as I age they have passed. </p>
<p>But when I would meet one of the outliers, and due to my what were when I was younger high verbal skills they would actually talk to me (lots of times these guys seem standoffish but I think they just can't bear slow thinkers) oh my god how fun. Just to feel their brains working. Like skiing on a hill just a little too steep for me, and having a good run anyway.</p>
<p>So I don't think we need to worry about the outliers.</p>
<p>"....we live in Garrison Keilor's world where all our children are above average, so try telling your typical suburban parent that their "gifted" kid who tested off the charts in 3rd grade and is taking calculus as a junior is actually not that unusual in the applicant pool for some of these schools...."</p>
<p>hahahahahhaah. So how many kids with parental income below $50,000 do you think score 1600/800/800/800/800/800 and multiple fives in APs do you know? </p>
<p>Let me ask how may student who has no family or money connections and based on their work ethics do you know many kids are invited by MIT to do research with Grad student while they are only a high school student. Moreover, what about the same high school kids working with an Ivy professor in exploring in humanities on the level of a graduate level work? I am sure there may be 100 kids (which is still extreme number) but I doubt it. </p>
<p>I still believe what Einstein, Genius is 1% inspiration 99% perspiration, said. Working hard is not limited to any race, religion or sexes. In addition, most people (only exceptions people with disability) are born with equal intelligence. However, they fail to work to their potential and blame others for their fall.</p>
<p>Ivies are good but they are not the only places with intelligent kids. Sometime kids choose to other places because of financial or maybe personal reasons. When I posted the thread I wanted to dispel the notion that Ivy choose the most brilliant kids, they choose the best student body which many people have said before me. Ivy school has resources where one can pursue their dreams to the nth degree. Moreover, yes most of the time admission is in favor of people with $$$$$$. Because of the resources, they tend to pursue more opportunities. However, these kids have to work very hard to compete among themselves. Not all kids with $$$$ end up in elite colleges. In addition, I am not even going to say that the current policies of private school are right or wrong as they are after all private institutions. Sorry if I offended anyone.</p>
<p>Alumother,
Great post which describes those who are incredibly cerebrally gifted. My few "flickers" have totally vanished too--middle-aged brain just can't work that hard. But oh to be one of those outlier smarts who can do it effortlessly.</p>
<p>For undergraduate education, I think the mission of most universities in the United States is to provide a liberal education over a wide range of subject matter to a diverse student body. They want their graduates to become more informed citizens, armed with a background that would serve them well in many fields within our society. Hopefully, students will have found their own fields of interest and have the knowledge and necessary preparation to enter graduate school, law school, medical school, business school, or whatever the next step may be in reaching their goals by the time they graduate.. Elite private universities want to graduate students who will leave a mark in many fields - not just academia.
Therefore, it doesn't serve their purposes to just admit the academic creme of the crop. What it takes to succeed in business, law or government may be very different than what it takes to score 1600/800/800/800/800 and multiple fives in APs. Experience leads me to believe that this is true.
Graduate school is the place for admitting the academic stars in each discipline. I think when you look at the numbers admitted to our top universities and the qualifications of the students admitted to the graduate schools, it's pretty obvious that intellect and academic talent are what counts.
Sometimes people from places other than the United States compare our undergraduate system with the systems in other countries, but I don't think the goals of our colleges are the same as in other countries in many cases. The U.S. wants to educate everyone who wants an education, and we have many excellent public and private undergraduate institutions dedicated to serving the broad population. The most acadmically talented go on to graduate education - often paid for by the colleges that accept them.
It's not really the mission of most of our undergraduate schools to choose the most brilliant kids. They often do, but they aspire to reach a broader population.</p>
<p>Alumother -
"outliers"<br>
What some call the "severely gifted."<br>
I agree that we don't need to worry about them. They are usually driven to find the education they need, much like the rest of us find food, water and shelter. ;)</p>
<p>As ASAP brings up, many undergraduate colleges aspire to reach a broad population. In that light, I happen to think, Stockmarket, that your daughter is attractive, partly, in that she comes from a lower income family. Elite colleges do not just want rich kids. I believe if they put your daughter side by side with another kid who had stratospheric stats like she does but who came from wealth and privilege, your daughter may just get the nod over the other kid at an elite institution. Same with kids from first generation college background families. Not everyone who goes to an elite college comes from wealth or connections and frankly, these colleges want a broad base of students, not just one type or background. </p>
<p>However, you ignored the other additional comment al together:</p>
<p>"Let me ask how may student who has no family or money connections and based on their work ethics do you know many kids are invited by MIT to do research with Grad student while they are only a high school student. Moreover, what about the same high school kids working with an Ivy professor in exploring in humanities on the level of a graduate level work? I am sure there may be 100 kids (which is still extreme number) but I doubt it. "</p>
<p>And yes I do agree with you that 1600 are now way guarantees of success later in adult life. While working for an economics giant in Ivy, my kid learned few interesting aspects in economics. That is why I named myself stockmarekt, because it is fascinating. Her insight has made recently good small fortune for us. I do not think she would developed those connections by staying in an urban public school.</p>
<p>I beg your pardon, but with graduate school more and more common, you cannot seriously say that "Graduate school is the place for admitting the academic stars in each discipline." I'd venture that there is a large number of 'graduate degrees' out there that you would not give a 'hoot' for, academically speaking.</p>
<p>Stockmarket, I didn't ignore your comment. I just have nothing to say of interest about it. I don't happen to know ANY kids invited to do research with MIT in high school, rich or poor. It's quite an accomplishment that you and your daughter should be proud of.</p>
<p>leanid - Since we were talking mostly about very selective schools,
I stand by my comment that graduate schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Berkeley, Chicago, all are looking for academic talent to fill the very few graduate student slots that are available at these institutions. Sometimes there are only three or four availble in a given discipline each year, with hundreds of applicants.
Back in the stone age when my husband was a history grad student at Princeton, he was one of fifteen. It's extremely selective, based entirely on academic promise.</p>
<p>I also know that it's possible, and not that difficult, to get a graduate degree at many less selective schools - but I thought we were talking about the more elite schools. If not, what's the problem? We have tons of colleges in this country begging for students.</p>
<p>I'd like to point out the the colleges and universities in Great Britain accept students by their grades/test scores alone. The could care less about ECs. However, you still see the students playing music and doing sports in college.</p>
<p>Many countries around the world admit by test scores and grades alone. Often, there is another track for the non-academic student, trade schools, etc. In the US, we like to think our university education is open to everyone, which it is, I guess, if you consider the many wonderful less selective schools in this country. In California, a college education is very attainable for anyone with a C average who can muster up the state college fees- which are climbing, unforturnately, at this very moment.. still a good bargain, however.</p>
<p>How are things going, andi? Anything you can report, yet?</p>
<p>It's my understanding that many of these countries that use grades and test scores alone are using "grades" from exit exams as grades, not the artibitrary things we in the U.S. call grades. In the US, it is possible to get an A without learning a thing all semester. It may be possible to do that elsewhere, but that sort of thing would show up in, for example, Britain's school leaving exams. When the focus is on learning rather than compiling a weighty and impressive transcript, for bright students there is still time left in the day to play the oboe and kick a soccer ball.</p>
<p>I want to thank you for your comforting statements.
She has found some friends who are very helpful despite having different political views.
Yes, she is a happy person but she has driven herself a lot. She is happy about her acceptance but she is cautious. She, her GCs and teachers did have more confidence than our family. We will be glad once these decisions are over. </p>
<p>Initially our family wanted her to apply ED to Princeton as we have thought she will have better time because of her political views. But few people told us about ED and financial aid comparisons. Honestly if financaial aid is okay we may call it quit and just forget the rest. Meanwhile she has to wait and see.</p>
<p>And my D is majoring in psychology/neuroscience at Princeton. She is all excited about brain imaging. I am going to ask her to focus on the outlier "flickers" us regular types have. Imagine if it were a drug:)?</p>
<p>Stockmarket - I am sure all will be well. You might want to focus on having your D smell some flowers for a little while. Some kids who drive hard for a long time when they surface after college can be a little, well, tired. </p>
<p>And the stockmarket requires stamina over time, right:).</p>
<p>So now I'm totally confused. I thought Stockmarket's rant was that the top schools are only interested in athletes, legacies, or rich kids, i.e. not interested in academics, nor kids without substantial financial resources. So-- it appears that Stockmarket's kid has been accepted to Harvard EA and is waiting on Princeton (and presumably a few other top schools) despite being handicapped with a dazzling intellect but no money. What's the problem here?????</p>
<p>I think my daughter may take time off to voulunteer in middle east. She learned some Arabic and is facinated with it. She is thinking about Turkey to learn Arabic. She already has an approved scholarship that will be willing to pay for the enitre trip. But then agian she may go to school. Let us see. </p>
<p>Stockmarket required some stamina yes you are right.</p>
<p>Yes, I'm confused too. Also I thought the rant was about only 2 (v. 30) stellar "pure academic" kids getting into their elite schools and your daughter was one of them, but then looking at all that your daughter has accomplished, she is absolutely not a "pure academic" -- she has done incredible things outside of getting good grades and test scores. So, I'm lost here.</p>