Minnesota LACs

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'm in a bit of a rut. I cannot decide if I want to get really far away from home and go to school out east like Bowdoin/Wesleyan/UVermont or if I should go sort of far away Oberline/UW-Madison. I've decided that I will see what Minnesota has to offer. I've done some research and came up with some colleges/universities that interest me, and was just wondering if they have good standing for top tier grad schools. Is there any information people can give me about the campus feel and how the students are? I will probably get in a visit to Morris, Mac, and Hamline, Carleton, St. Olaf sometime this winter, but am interested now :)</p>

<p>-Hamline
-St. Thomas
-Macalester
-UM-Morris
-Augsburg College
-Carleton College
-St. Olaf</p>

2

<p>Carleton and Macalester are two of the best liberal arts colleges in the country and would carry a lot of weight with grad schools if you do well there. Hamline and St Olaf are also quite respectable.</p>

<p>What will your major be?</p>

<p>Carleton accepts about 60% of its applicants. Lots of National Merit Scholars. Close contact with faculty. Does not accept transfer students...all start as freshmen. Mostly liberal bot not extreme. Tunnels between buildings. The best college in Minnesota. It has a 90% graduation rate.</p>

<p>Macalester is in a nice location-suburb of Minneapolis St Paul. Lots of diversity and internationalism. Good study abroad options and language department. Strong drama dept. 81% graduation rate is lower than you would expect considering the quality of the students...that is a concern about Macalester.</p>

3

<p>I'd like to correct a few things -Carleton does accept transfer, just very, very few b/c they've had overenrollment lately. I'd be very surprised if they accept that high a % of applying freshmen, given their average SATs -where'd you get that statistic from? Also, the tunnels between building have been shutdown for a few years.</p>

4

<p>Actually, Carleton's acceptance rate has been below 30% for several years. Last two years have been about 27-28% acceptance regular decision.</p>

5

<p>The 60% accept rate was from a 1995 book entitled Looking Beyond the Ivy League". I see from the IPEDS COOL website that the rate is now below 30%. The thing about the tunnels was from the same book.</p>

6

<p>Of that list Mac and Carleton have the best rep for grad school placement. They are two of the top liberal arts schools in the country.</p>

<p>I applied to both of them and decided to go to Carleton. I am currently a freshmen at Carleton!</p>

<p>Mac has a very urban feel to it and is right by the cities. Carleton on the other hand has a very rural campus in Northfield Minnesota, about 45-50 minutes from the city.</p>

<p>I suppose I could really only speak for the students at Carleton but people here are very cool, friendly, laidback, and smart. </p>

<p>If you have any other questions about the school feel free to pm/im me.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
What will your major be?

[/quote]

Somewhere along the lines of European Studies/East European Studies/Russian Studies and Political Science. Possibly a minor in Economics.</p>

8

<p>"Of that list Mac and Carleton have the best rep for grad school placement. They are two of the top liberal arts schools in the country."</p>

<p>Actually, one might easily think so, but as it turns out, it isn't true - that honor belongs to St. Olaf's in most areas. </p>

<p>According to the National Research Council’s Survey of Earned Doctorates, St. Olaf ranks fifth among bachelor degree colleges in the number of graduates who go on to earn doctoral degrees. (This represents the years 1991–2000.) St. Olaf is first among baccalaureate colleges in mathematics, first in religion and theology, fifth in chemistry, seventh in foreign languages and sixth in life sciences as an undergraduate supplier of Ph.D.s.</p>

<p>The reason they show up in the "tables" less often is a function of the larger size of the student population. </p>

<p>All three are GREAT schools. But sometimes things aren't as they seem.</p>

9

<p>I have a friend majoring in Japanese and European History at St. Olaf. She spent her junior year of high school in Japan, and she loves their foreign language and history programs. She's extremely liberal, and she feels right at home on campus even though it has a large Lutheran community. The class sizes, so far at least, seem to be very small.</p>

10

<p>I'd just like to state that Macalester is smack-dab in the middle of the city, not a suburb or near a city. Mac is in one of the best locations in Saint Paul and 10 min drive to Minneapolis. No need for a car, the bus system is great. Hamline is a good school too, about 2 miles from Macalester, probably not even that much. I've also spent plenty of time at St. Thomas and it is a decent school, not for me, too many white/conservative/catholics. St. Thomas is right on the border from Minneapolis too, in a wonderful neighborhood in the same radius from the other Saint Paul schools.</p>

<p>Oh, I didn't mention that I live in Saint Paul... Do you have any questions about the city? I can tell you all the cool places to go!</p>

11

<p>Actually, I Carleton produces more total PhDs than St. Olaf. Here are the raw totals for most recent 10 year period 1994 - 2003 for colleges and universities averaging less than 750 graduates per year. The number before the name is the total number of graduates over a ten year period. The number after the name is the total number of PhDs.</p>

<p>1 7,067 Oberlin College 1107
2 6,432 Rice University 842
3 7,081 Wesleyan University 780
4 3,657 Swarthmore College 770
5 4,561 Carleton College 766
6 2,059 California Institute of Technology 738
7 5,082 Williams College 644
8 7,162 Smith College 634
9 5,840 Wellesley College 608
10 6,901 St Olaf College 599
11 6,751 Case Western Reserve University 587
12 6,987 Brandeis University 536
13 2,599 Reed College 517
14 4,179 Amherst College 517
15 5,702 Vassar College 503
16 3,578 Pomona College 492
17 5,536 Barnard College 459
18 2,879 Bryn Mawr College 456
19 3,229 Grinnell College 454
20 4,936 Mount Holyoke College 440
21 4,917 Trinity University 420
22 5,835 Furman University 385
23 2,773 Haverford College 384
24 5,386 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 383
25 6,810 Colgate University 378
26 3,945 Macalester College 368
27 3,740 Bowdoin College 335
28 1,335 Harvey Mudd College 330
29 5,411 Middlebury College 325
30 3,821 Occidental College 320
31 3,847 College of Wooster 319
32 6,415 College of the Holy Cross 317
33 4,361 Franklin and Marshall College 314
34 4,113 Bates College 308
35 4,926 Colorado College 301
36 2,565 Kalamazoo College 290
37 3,769 Davidson College 281
38 5,464 Hope College 281
39 3,989 Allegheny College 270
40 6,380 Gustavus Adolphus College 270
41 5,960 Worcester Polytechnic Institute 262
42 5,064 Clark University 261
43 4,199 Hamilton College 254
44 4,597 Colby College 251
45 2,598 Lawrence University 246
46 3,892 Spelman College 246
47 4,959 Luther College 246
48 4,632 Trinity College (Hartford, CT) 243
49 7,213 University of Richmond 242
50 2,410 Earlham College 241</p>

<p>Here's the top 50 on a PhD per graduate basis. Same time frames, again limited to college and universities with under 750 grads per year on average:</p>

<p>1 2,059 California Institute of Technology 35.8%
2 1,335 Harvey Mudd College 24.7%
3 3,657 Swarthmore College 21.1%
4 2,599 Reed College 19.9%
5 4,561 Carleton College 16.8%
6 2,879 Bryn Mawr College 15.8%
7 7,067 Oberlin College 15.7%
8 3,229 Grinnell College 14.1%
9 2,773 Haverford College 13.8%
10 3,578 Pomona College 13.8%
11 6,432 Rice University 13.1%
12 5,082 Williams College 12.7%
13 4,179 Amherst College 12.4%
14 2,565 Kalamazoo College 11.3%
15 7,081 Wesleyan University 11.0%
16 1639 St John's College (both campus) 10.6%
17 5,840 Wellesley College 10.4%
18 2,410 Earlham College 10.0%
19 2,308 Beloit College 9.6%
20 2,598 Lawrence University 9.5%
21 3,945 Macalester College 9.3%
22 3,740 Bowdoin College 9.0%
23 4,936 Mount Holyoke College 8.9%
24 7,162 Smith College 8.9%
25 5,702 Vassar College 8.8%
26 6,751 Case Western Reserve University 8.7%
27 6,901 St Olaf College 8.7%
28 2,041 Hendrix College 8.7%
29 2,361 Hampshire College 8.6%
30 4,917 Trinity University 8.5%
31 2,199 Knox College 8.5%
32 3,821 Occidental College 8.4%
33 3,847 College of Wooster 8.3%
34 5,536 Barnard College 8.3%
35 1,004 Bennington College 8.2%
36 2,868 Whitman College 8.0%
37 1,363 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8%
38 6,987 Brandeis University 7.7%
39 1,753 Wabash College 7.5%
40 4,113 Bates College 7.5%
41 3,769 Davidson College 7.5%
42 4,361 Franklin and Marshall College 7.2%
43 1,277 Fisk University 7.1%
44 5,386 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 7.1%
45 1,015 University of California-San Francisco 6.8%
46 3,989 Allegheny College 6.8%
47 5,835 Furman University 6.6%
48 2,106 Bard College 6.5%
49 3,047 Rhodes College 6.4%
50 1,167 Agnes Scott College 6.3%
51 3,892 Spelman College 6.3%</p>

<p>St. Olaf is very, very strong in math and science PhD production. It would certainly a good midwest school to consider for academics if the somewhat distinctive campus culture appeals.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
Oh, I didn't mention that I live in Saint Paul... Do you have any questions about the city? I can tell you all the cool places to go!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I've been to St. Paul enough times :) I stayed with some people in St. Anthony's Park for a couple of weeks, and my aunt lives in Apple Valley :) I guess I do have one question... They aren't in areas with lots of crime, are they?</p>

13

<p>Corey - </p>

<p>The Minnesota schools you list are all in low-crime areas. Macalester, by virtue of it's urban location, has a bit more crime, but relative to other major urban areas you might as well be living in a national park.</p>

<p>You've got a good plan. No matter where you are located Carleton and Macalester show very well in comparison to Bowdoin and Wesleyan. And St. Olaf, Morris and Hamline all have some unique things to offer. </p>

<p>Take time for some good visits and I'm sure you will find a great college home.</p>

14

<p>mini-</p>

<p>I'm a fan of St. Olaf, but quiz a range of graduate school admissions folks and Macalester and Carleton will rank above St. Olaf in the nebulous area of "prestigious reputation." St. Olaf does well in the PhD roundups for a variety of reasons, but the biggest one is the fact that it turns out almost twice as many graduates annually as do Macalester and Carleton. </p>

<p>Big takeaway is by adding schools like Lawrence, Beloit, Grinnell and Knox to Carleton, Macalester and St. Olaf, the upper midwest is blessed with a good chunk of our top liberal arts colleges. No need for a North Dakotan to head to the northeast for a first-class undergraduate education.</p>

15

<p>St Olaf and Carleton are very very close to each other so if you visit see those two at the same time</p>

<p>Macalester is in the city in comparison</p>

16

<p>The neighborhood around it is very upscale. You can walk to many coffee shops, Whole foods, Patagonia, etc.</p>

17

<p>I would definitely feel safe in all of your schools late at night, except for maybe Augsburg, but it still isn't that bad.</p>

18

<p>I'm a fan of St. Olaf, but quiz a range of graduate school admissions folks and Macalester and Carleton will rank above St. Olaf in the nebulous area of "prestigious reputation."</p>

<p>As "prestige" goes. Of course they do. Find out where the wealthier students go. </p>

<p>Where Mac and Carleton will do better generally speaking is in the social sciences. But I doubt you'll find grad school admissions rates of those who apply are higher, and likely lower in math and the life sciences. I happen to love all three (was speaking in St. Paul, and visited Mac at the beginning of the month.)</p>

19

<p>The size difference at St. Olaf's (regarding Ph.d productivity) is deceptive as well (and calls into question - for all schools - the Ph.D. productivity measure as anything but a rough indicator.) Some 20% of St. Olaf students are performing arts (mostly muisc), family and consumer sciences, or social work/social services majors, for whom the vast, overwhelming majority, a Ph.D. is not the terminal working degree. Take them out of the equation, and all of a sudden St. Olaf is not much larger than the other two, and Ph.D. productivity soars even higher.</p>

<p>But the big difference between these schools is in family income. 83% of first-year students at St. Olaf's received need-based aid. Correct for family income (as it impacts both entering SAT scores on admission, and likely job/education paths upon leaving) and you'd find that grad. school/Ph.D. rates at St. Olaf's are likely well higher than Mac or Carleton (and virtually everywhere else.) BUT - I'd be willing to bet med school and law school rates are much lower, as many fewer students could imagine themselves affording them.</p>

20

<p>Mini:</p>

<p>That explanation doesn't hold water because a) the PhD numbers include doctorate degrees in the arts, especially music, and b) all schools have some students that major in these areas:</p>

<p>For example, one reason that Oberlin does so well in their doctorate production rates is that they produce very large numbers of those degrees from their conservatory students, relative to other schools.</p>

<p>You can see this from the top 20 or per capita producers of doctorate degrees in the fine arts (including music). Convervatory schools dominate the top of this list, as you would expect. St. Olafs does very well, although slightly behind Carelton in these fields:</p>

<p>Here are the top-50 undergrad schools in per capita PhD and Doctoral production from 1994-2003. Rank, followed by name, followed by number of PhDs per 1000 undergrads. This covers all PhDs and doctoral degrees included in the NSF data base. </p>

<p>Per Capita Undergrad Production of PhDs and Doctoral Degrees </p>

<p>Academic field: Music and Art </p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: 1994 to 2003 from NSF database </p>

<p>Enrollment from 2004 USNews </p>

<p>Formula: PhDs divided by undergrad enrollment times 1000 </p>

<p>1 Juilliard School 170
2 Oberlin College 66
3 San Francisco Conservatory of Music 64
4 New England Conservatory of Music 35
5 University of Rochester 31
6 Swarthmore College 27
7 Yale University 22
8 Bryn Mawr College 18
9 Carleton College 18
10 Wellesley College 18
11 Smith College 18
12 Amherst College 17
13 Bennington College 17
14 Harvard University 15
15 Williams College 15
16 Lawrence University 14
17 St Olaf College 13
18 Pomona College 12
19 Wesleyan University 12
20 Vassar College 11
21 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 11
22 Northwestern Univ 11
23 Luther College 11
24 Barnard College 11
25 Furman University 10
26 Sarah Lawrence College 10
27 Sweet Briar College 10
28 Goshen College 10</p>