Mired in debt, was the education worth it?

<p>toblin,</p>

<ol>
<li>I will admit my analysis could mix correlation and causation effects. In short, you could argue that anyone exceptional enough to get admitted to MIT will end up doing well above the average of their peers if they attend a average school.</li>
<li>I gave a detailed accounting of the assumptions in my model. I also had official sources for many of the numbers used to obtain those assumptions. If you disagree with some of the assumptions, it would be interesting to hear what. Otherwise, as engineers, we should trust mathematical results more than our gut on what the right answer should be.</li>
</ol>

<p>Timmy2 – here are some problems with your analysis (in post #194)</p>

<p>1) Anyone who can qualify for entrance into MIT can probably also get admission into a top 20 school that will offer substantial merit money or a lower cost education, including many public schools. I don’t know what the rankings of engineering schools are – when I mentioned Georgia Tech in a previous post you indicated that it was ranked pretty well. What about Cal Poly? What about Olin? </p>

<p>Before someone takes on X amount of debt, they need to consider alternatives. Any rational economic analysis looks at cost differentials – that is, not what is the “net present value” of the MIT education - but “is MIT worth $100K in debt as opposed to $30K debt for X university or no debt for Y university?” The answer may also depend on whether the individual has a clear idea of where they want to live after college. A public university that as a weak reputation nationwide may be well regarded in the student’s home state. </p>

<p>2) The real issue is the individual’s earning capacity, not averages reported by the school. MIT accepts only the best and the brightest – so the question is not, how does the typical MIT graduate’s employment prospects compare to the employment prospects of the typical Missouri grad — but rather, how does an MIT degree enhance the employment prospects of a given student with a 2300 SAT score and a 4.0 high school GPA? Outside the engineering field – where the question is what happens to Harvard admitted students who elect to go elsewhere – the answer seems to be “not much” in most cases. </p>

<p>That’s important because when you look at the overall earning capacity of MIT grads, you can’t conclude that it is the DEGREE as opposed to the individual’s innate abilities. Many firms include some sort of aptitude testing of their own design as part of the hiring process – and it may be that top 20 grads fare better on those tests largely because of their innate abilities rather than the name on their degree. Of course they should have learned something more in 4 years of college – but it may be that the differential between the Missouri and MIT grad is only 20% quality of instruction and 80% a matter of how smart the student was to begin with. </p>

<ol>
<li> You fail to factor in risk into your analysis. That is – you have calculated a “net present value” but you are assuming that the individual grad will in fact be earning whatever median figures you have come up with. It’s that kind of risk-blind thinking that led to the current economic crisis, the out-of-control BP oil spill, and the sinking of the Titanic.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>It’s also the exact type of thinking that leads to the type of situation the liberal arts major in the NY Times article faces: it’s making plans on the assumption that everything will go right, instead of factoring in, and planning for, the possibility that things might go wrong. You have substituted the variable of “top 20 engineering” degree – but that doesn’t change the analysis. The girl and her mom in the article were simply under the impression that “NYU degree” was the functional equivalent of the type of degree you think is most valuable. </p>

<p>Your analysis is appropriate to large-scale, statistical problems – where it is useful to consider group data and averages - but it is inappropriate to apply group analysis to individual problems. Every group has a statistical tail – and any given individual may fall into the bottom end of the tail. Of course we all like to believe that we will end up on the top end 
 but I’m one of those people who follows the adage, “hope for the best and plan for the worst.”</p>

<p>I think it is reasonable for a student to take on some debt – but as I posted above, I think the amount should be keyed to one year’s earning capacity – and I also think it should be keyed to present earning capacity, not anticipated future capacity. When my son with a liberal arts major dropped out of college after 2 years, he soon got a job that paid roughly $25K a year. So I think it’s fairly reasonable to assume that a smart high school graduate who could get into a top school, is capable of earning $25-$30K a year, even without their college degree. </p>

<p>Yes, of course the college degree increases earning capacity
 but life events might get in the way, and the debt will still be there. (My kid didn’t plan to drop out when he started – but his student loan debt for the first 2 years came due with or without a degree). </p>

<p>It’s not a matter of computing the “net present value” of the degree. I can compute the “present value” of a new Mercedes, but that doesn’t mean I can afford one. </p>

<p>Maybe I am just a risk-averse person – but I look at debt as something that requires a foundation to take on. When I was deciding how much I could afford to take on in PLUS loans – I looked at my own annual earnings, and I looked at the value of my home and the amount of assets I had sitting in my retirement account. I don’t want to pull money out of retirement in order to pay for my kids’ college – which is why I chose the PLUS loan – but I can tell you that if my earning capacity were compromised in the future, there is more than enough money sitting in the retirement account to pay off the college debt. The only “net present value” I am looking at is the net present value of me – which, even taking into account all debt that I have taken on, comes out to a positive number.</p>

<p>Timmy2 – I have another question - personal to your situation. Did you have any internships during school?</p>

<p>I am asking this because in another thread on CC about post-grad employment it seems that most of the students (in all fields, including engineering) who had jobs at graduation had them as a direct or indirect result of a positive internship experience.</p>

<p>I realize that, for economic reasons, some students can’t afford to take on unpaid or low-paid internships while in school; I also understand that geography plays a part. But I was just thinking that your analysis might also be overestimating the value of a prestige degree without considering the value of work-experience and connections formed while in school.</p>

<p>*I have seen many new State grad get hired over more prestigious school grads due to demonstrated ability and attitude during internships and the interview process. </p>

<p>I also have personally heard the lament of “But I went to a better AND more expensive school!” </p>

<p>Is it better to attend a brand name engineering school? YES. But when you factor in taking on on debt the answer rapidly becomes: NO!*</p>

<p>So true. And a shocking fact to those who are paying back big debt while colleagues who went cheaply to the state school or a private with merit are not.</p>

<p>

Yes, I believe that’s what the folks who run the BP oil rig were thinking. </p>

<p>Sometimes things that have a very small probability of happening, do happen.</p>

<p>*Last, I have a hard time believing that a student willing to go into massive debt for an undergraduate education is going to be able to live as frugally as needed to pay it back in ten years. </p>

<p>I wish the reporter would have asked the girl what type of cell phone and cell phone service she had. (I say this because I laugh to myself when I hear how poor some are yet they are sporting the latest iphone with its required media package.) *</p>

<p>That has been my big concern, too. Many kids today - even some whose families don’t have big incomes - enjoy a pretty good life (not all have it easy, but many do). </p>

<p>There are kids who are used to getting Nintendo things, iPods, new cell phones, nice clothes, getting their hair done, getting mani/pedis, etc. Many of these kids have never lived a frugal day in their lives. Some have had parents shield them from any/all money concerns in the family. There are parents who go into big debt every Christmas just to make sure Johnny and Mary get everything on their lists (some of these parents are low income!). Ugh. </p>

<p>How are these kinds of kids ever going to “cut back” year after year while paying back big debt? They will feel cheated that they did all that work and they aren’t even enjoying the fruits of their labor. .</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>That’s because when it comes to employment and income-generation, a lot depends on innate interpersonal skills rather than objective qualifications. Smart people get passed over all the time in favor of people who are more charismatic or have a better sense of internal office politics. Some colleges do have excellent career offices that help provide students with some of the needed job-hunting and job-getting skills – but that’s not generally part of the overall college curriculum, and you don’t need to attend an elite college to hone up on these skills.</p>

<p>*
If you are willing to drastically cut your lifestyle, you can pay off a 100K loan in LESS than 10 years on a 30-40K salary (Not much less though, so she should have thought twice about her major).</p>

<p>Sure the loan calculator says you need to earn 150K a year to pay off a 100K in 10 years comfortably but
 no one ever said you need to be comfortable.*</p>

<p>Yes, it’s possible if you’re not a reasonably sociable person and live like a hermit - but that’s not a reasonable expectation for the average new grad. </p>

<p>Think about it. The loan “payback years” are when a grad is between ages 23 - 33. Those aren’t “hermit” years. Those are dating years
getting married years
starting a family years. Yes, if you’re a recluse, it would work. But, if you’re normal social person, it won’t. LOL</p>

<p>

Thanks - I’m out of touch.</p>

<p>I think inflation, equity in homes, there are so many unpredictables.</p>

<p>Two families: My SIL and BIL more conservative folk than H and I am. They bought a less expensive house and rented out the upstairs of their house so their housing costs were nil and owned their house within 10 years. SIL stayed home to be a full-time mom. Finances were uppermost in their minds at all times. BIL is an office manager for a brokerage firm.</p>

<p>My family: Two unrealistic humanities types. Me – English PhD, college prof, hippie poet. H – professional photographer. We had a large down payment because I already owned a house to sell when we married and started a family. We bought a second more expensive house that forced me to keep working (after four years off and kids were 4 and 2.) SIL disapproved. We were frugal enough to pay off house in 15 years but H’s business collapsed and some equity money had to go into that.</p>

<p>Who has more money? We do, but a long shot. Our more expensive house appreciated a lot more, and my job yielded a large retirement nest egg.</p>

<p>Our kids attended great privates with some FA (H’s business had horrible numbers to show) and SIL’s children attended one wonderful public (with small merit) and one totally inappropriate private (child wants publishing and writing after being educated at a school known only for turning out health care professionals.)</p>

<p>We did everything wrong according to our relatives.</p>

<p>We are blunderers for sure, but not everything can always be known in advance. The business reversals H suffered were devastating to our family and ate college money but then we got FA.</p>

<p>If kids had gone to state schools because that was not an option that would have been great, too.</p>

<p>Life, however, is a bit unpredictable.</p>

<p>For my part, I hope this young girl does figure out a way to live frugally, be fully employed and discharge her debt.</p>

<p>I think it’s sad to view her with a punishment mentality. I don’t think she deserves to be punished or for us to want her to be punished.</p>

<p>Shes not punished. She went to the university of her choice, and at the time thought 4 years at a college that is an expensive prestigious school was worth the 10 years paying off the loans.</p>

<p>I mean punished by the punitive attitudes of folks here.</p>

<p>It isn’t about the girl in the article - the NYT is publishing that article largely as a cautionary tale to other youngsters who may be on the precipice of making the same mistakes. </p>

<p>The problem with the attitude of “it doesn’t matter, she should have known better” – is that if these issues are not explored — the same mistakes will be repeated by others – in part because it in many people’s nature to be optimistic about their future and to minimize the impact of future sacrifice in the face of present comfort.</p>

<p>One way to get youngsters – and their parents – thinking more realistically is by raising awareness through first-person accounts from graduates facing problems because of their debt.</p>

<p>I do have to note that what disturbed me most about the NYT article is that the young person was still deferring the debt (and accumulating more interest) by trying to stay enrolled in school rather than increasing earning capacity. So basically – there was all that debt, and the young lady had yet to feel the full brunt of it because she was continuing to avoid repayment.</p>

<p>“I have seen many new State grad get hired over more prestigious school grads due to demonstrated ability and attitude during internships and the interview process.” </p>

<p>Toblin is spot on and it is my experience as well 
 Career paths for engineers either follow an individual contributor or a management path. There are very few highly paid individual contributors but more managers and VPs who receive the most compensation. People skills, attitude, and judgement are the critical factors in determining who gets promoted to lead teams. Technical “Rock Stars” who don’t possess people skills end up in an individual contributor role. We employee hundreds of engineers with BS/MS/Phds (most have MS) from many of the schools discussed on this site (our highest paid engineering individual is from Arizona State) and in my experience there is not any correlation between the USNWR ranking and the ability to manage and lead.</p>

<ol>
<li> In post #194, I calculate net present value of MIT degree as
net present value = value of MIT degree - value of degree from an average university - 200K debt to attend MIT
So, net present value, as I use it, incorporates debt and the alternative of another university.
I didn’t address it. However, I expect statistically people who can get substantial aid at another top 20
school will lose money going to MIT at full sticker price.</li>
<li> I admit it could be the premium for a MIT degree actually reflects the premium for whatever characteristics get a
person admitted to MIT. I don’t know what the research says on this. I compared MIT to a national average,
not just Missouri.</li>
<li> I think the premium attached to being a “smart” HS grad is usually close to 0. Manual labor jobs don’t
pay people more just because they got perfect SATs or can solve differential equations. I doubt Walmart
would care that I have MS in engineering, except in a “How did he screw up his life so bad, that he is applying
to work here?” type of way. People with rich and connected parents can get their HS grads jobs at $25/hr to lifeguard or
caddy at the country club. That’s networking, not IQ.</li>
<li> In my ideal world, parents would never take out loans to pay for their children’s college or cosign
on any loans. Students would have full responsibility for all student loans.</li>
<li> If you act under the assumption of the worst case of the student doesn’t graduate, you might say no one
should ever go to college. Everything else consists of statistical probabilities. Compare college to other
investments. You could keep your money in a FDIC savings account, which is safe, but guaranteed a low return.
Alternatively, you could invest in riskier corporate bonds, stocks, or mutual funds with higher average growth.</li>
</ol>

<p>^^^^Thanks for item #1. I am starting to understand the thinking I’m not trained in.</p>

<p>XTXN2CAL,</p>

<p>The spread between the average starting salary at MIT and the national average is about
$16K. The spread between the average starting salary at MIT and and a University of Missouri graduate is probably $25K. I believe while individual employers may offer a slightly higher salary to students from the best schools, that difference largely exists because the MIT graduate goes to work for Microsoft or Google, while the Missouri grad goes to work for Missouri Software Consulting. In the long run, Missouri grads that take jobs at Microsoft as a SDE might not be treated any differently than their colleagues who went to CMU. However, Missouri grads are far less likely to work for Microsoft or Google. The hypothetical Missouri Software Consulting might pay their managers and tech leads less than Microsoft’s individual contributors. Further, if someone tries to get a job in Silicon Valley after building up some experience, no one in Palo Alto has ever heard of Missouri Software Consulting.</p>

<p>Of course the young woman felt entitled and acted in foolish ways. She wants to live in SF and work in a semi-cool profession, never mind that “photographer’s assistant” doesn’t require a college degree, or even a high school degree.
The issue to me, as with mortgage borrowers through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, whether I will end up paying for this.
The evil doers IMO in this are the educators who were just looking to get paid, damn the consequences. I’m not surprised that the NYTimes writer let them escape via equivocation.<br>
“Why some of my best friends are educators”. Yeah, and the student and the taxpayers are left holding the bag.</p>

<p>Well likely the PhD educators were sold a similar bill of goods. However, I don’t think $22 an hour is bad payment, even for a college grad.</p>

<p>*
People are stupid when it’s convenient.*</p>

<p>LOL
great line
and it applies to so many scenarios.</p>

<p>When emotions are flying high, logic has long been grounded.</p>