<p>@Hanna: “I think it’s quite likely that students majoring in engineering, nursing, etc. would be able to borrow quite a bit to attend state flagships. The market would probably undertake a serious analysis of future earnings that’s sorely needed today. My guess is that you would probably qualify for more loans, at a cheaper rate, not just by going to a good school and choosing a remunerative major, but also for making good grades”</p>
<p>That’s an interesting concept, but it doesn’t allow for the fact that a significant percentage of students don’t even declare a major until the end of their sophomore year, and quite a few regret that choice and end up switching at least once after declaring. Many freshmen have no clue what they want to do, or even what they’re particularly good at, until they have sampled classes in several different areas or have been challenged or inspired by a special course or professor. How would they get funding for their freshman and sophomore years, lie about what they plan to major in? </p>
<p>The United States has the best higher education system in the world. We offer access to colleges across the entire spectrum of both cost and excellence. Any student who qualifies to get in and can pay the price to attend can go to whatever college they choose. It’s the best blend of meritocracy and democracy any country has come up with yet. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.</p>
<p>Cooking the meals definitely can save you money. However, for a novice cook who is a jock with a huge appetite living with 3 other guys, there are challenges to cooking the majority of your meals. When my other two lived in apts/houses with others, those kitchens were wrecks every time I saw them. To cook a meal means a half hour of clean up. Also the frig was filled with rotton stuff that was purchased with all good intentions but just not cooked. My appetite was gone after taking a quick look in that kitchen. </p>
<p>Cooking good nutritious, thrifty meals involve a lot of planning and use of leftovers. Hard to do when you are sharing with a bunch of college kids. I remember roasting a chicken and living on it for the rest of the week, but it involved planning and storing the leftovers properly. I can’t see most kids doing that in a share situation with more than one person. </p>
<p>What I did for my sons is buy a Costco freezer, loaded it with easy microwave stuff, and also provided a personal microwave. That and and a case of ramen and some other quick makes stood a chance of getting used. Also bought paper plates, bowls and others goods so that he did not have to deal with that dumpster of a kitchen. Also garbage bags. I don’t know if we saved anything over the meal plan doing that, as it was a pain in the neck, but it gave him some options. I also made some meals and split them into portions for the freezer that he could microwave. </p>
<p>Sometimes it works out,having a bunch of kids sharing the meals and keeping a clean kitchen, and when it does==great. But if not, I want my kid to have some good meal options. I notice he is packing his own meals for work this summer so maybe there is a chance. But I would not be counting on saving a lot of money when they first go off that meal plan. They may not hit you up for more money, but they could be in the group of hungry beggars, not a good situation during finals.</p>
<p>“That’s an interesting concept, but it doesn’t allow for the fact that a significant percentage of students don’t even declare a major until the end of their sophomore year, and quite a few regret that choice and end up switching at least once after declaring.”</p>
<p>This is true in the liberal arts, but much less true in the kind of pre-professional programs that private lenders would be most interested in funding. Most of the time, students enter a college of business/engineering/education/health science. Moving out of the field altogether requires transferring colleges within the university, which prompts the same kind of financial re-evaluation as any other transfer.</p>
<p>Even within the liberal arts, there’d probably be one loan basket for humanities and social science, and another for math and natural science. A lender might not care if you switch from math to chemistry the way they would care if you switched from computer science to sociology. If you switched, you might lose your loan or end up with a much higher interest rate. That would force switching students to think about the economics of the switch, which is exactly what they ought to do.</p>
<p>@ Hanna: Well, that’s one way of looking at it I guess. So the country doesn’t need any more linguists, sociologists, psychologists, writers, historians, etc, in your view? And the critical thinking and writing skills honed through attaining a degree in the humanities and social sciences have no career value? That has definitely not been my experience.</p>
<p>While it is true that there are many jobs that require a very specific skill set I would venture to say that the vast majority of jobs currently available in this country do not. Getting those jobs and moving up in the working world are often more dependent upon an individual’s ability to demonstrate critical thinking skills and high level oral and written communication skills. And in today’s global economy, where products and jobs obsolesce at warp speed, those whose broadly applicable skills allow them to flex and redirect as needed have an enormous advantage in the long run. Just ask anyone who lives in Detroit.</p>
<p>“So the country doesn’t need any more linguists, sociologists, psychologists, writers, historians, etc, in your view?”</p>
<p>I certainly don’t think that. But it makes sense for the vast majority of these aspiring humanists to attend very inexpensive colleges if their families can’t afford the tuition elsewhere. They are much more likely to be free to make future contributions in those fields if they attend directional state schools, or small private schools that give them merit money, than if they borrow tens of thousands to go to NYU. If student loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, no one would have given the subject of the thread all this money in the first place, and she would have reveled in the humanities to her heart’s content at SUNY Geneseo…which she now realizes she should have done.</p>
<p>There is a lot of truth to this. Even warned, many would probably just soldier on. After all, bad things can happen, but it won’t happen to me–is often the thought.</p>
<p>“@ Hanna: Well, that’s one way of looking at it I guess. So the country doesn’t need any more linguists, sociologists, psychologists, writers, historians, etc, in your view? And the critical thinking and writing skills honed through attaining a degree in the humanities and social sciences have no career value? That has definitely not been my experience.”</p>
<p>maybe not “any more” but certainly NO more than is relative to demand for these skills</p>
<p>and by the way, CASmom, if these libart degrees are so great at honing “critical thinking” one would think such students would be capable of determining how much debt their degrees will cost relative to the projected income typical of the field of endeavor, and plan their education accordingly </p>
<p>and btw#2, CASmom, the days when engineers/scientists/businesspersons were incapable of reading and writing anything other than equations are long gone.</p>
<p>But if you had received stronger counseling against taking on too much debt, as long with some attempts at educating you as to the real impact (all that budgeting stuff), and exploration of alternatives available to you… even as a stubborn 18 year old you might have either relented, or looked for alternative means to reach the same goal. </p>
<p>I mean, even in this thread we see the myth of the good vs. bad college being raised again, not just in the context of elites v. privates, but in the context of state flagships as compared to lower-status 4-year public colleges within the same state. </p>
<p>I think a lot of students lose sight of their long-term goal in favor of their short-term goal of attending a particular college – and attending that college right away. </p>
<p>I honestly would like to see the private lending system heavily curtailed, because I don’t think it would prevent needy people from getting educations, but because I think it would force young people to make a more realistic assessment of their options from the start. If a student wants to attend NYU, which doesn’t meet financial need, and they can easily get a private loan of $20K/year to fill the gap - then they make the mistake of attending a college they can’t afford. But if that same student were faced with a dearth of private loan money – it doesn’t mean the student would forego the education. Instead – that student might have to re-evaluate option and attend a different college which offers better aid, or work harder to secure some outside funding like a private scholarship, or earnings outside of school. Over time, NYU might have to reevaluate its tuition or financial aid policies, because with a dearth of private loans, it would be harder for them to retain students, which might in turn hurt their overall reputation and bring down their ranking, which in turn would make it even harder to convince students to pay their high tuition.</p>
<p>Students don’t need to be drowning in debt to get those degrees. There are excellent departments in all of those fields at public universities, and most students who are capable of getting into a school like NYU would also be able to get into many excellent private colleges that either give generous need-based aid or would be likely to award merit money. So maybe the kid who had their heart set on being in the Big Apple ends up studying at an LAC in rural Iowa instead – is that such a horrible thing for our society?</p>
<p>Indeed, with the exception of a few strong programs (Ticsh, Stern), the attractiveness for many (most?) of NYU is really Manhattan/The Village. The college just happens to sit there. The same/better liberal arts academics can be had at a couple of thousand other 4-year schools.</p>
<p>" So maybe the kid who had their heart set on being in the Big Apple ends up studying at an LAC in rural Iowa instead – is that such a horrible thing for our society?"</p>
<p>it is certainly not horrible. what is horrible is to seduce kids into pursuing a dream education they can’t afford unless they assume loans disproportionate to the potential earnings (and therefore ability to repay the debt) from that education. even more horrible would be to pass on these debts to our society in some sort of student loan bailout. how different are over-extended mortgages from student loans?</p>
<p>@ toodleoo: " and by the way, CASmom, if these libart degrees are so great at honing “critical thinking” one would think such students would be capable of determining how much debt their degrees will cost relative to the projected income typical of the field of endeavor, and plan their education accordingly "</p>
<p>—Except that most students make their college choice as a high school senior and hone these skills over the course of their college education.</p>
<hr>
<p>" and btw#2, CASmom, the days when engineers/scientists/businesspersons were incapable of reading and writing anything other than equations are long gone."</p>
<p>----I’m having a little trouble finding the place in any of my posts where I said or even implied this. Perhaps you could find that for me?</p>
<hr>
<p>----The nice thing about having a dialogue with posters like Hanna is they know how to disagree without being disagreeable. Other posters…not so much.</p>
<p>You don’t have to go to NYU to experience NYC. That is one of the more if not most expensive way to do it. There are many choices in Manhattan and other parts of NYC and within an hour’s commute from Grand Central Station. If that is what you really want, look for some less pricey alternatives. City University has some great dorms in Manhattan as does Fordham. Manhattan College is a subway ride to the city and has much lower tuition, good, affordable housing on campus and gives out a lot of merit money. If you can find family that will rent you a room or let you live with them for a bit, you can find any number of CUNYs where you can commute. Some of them have housing options. Also, you can look for roommate shares on bulletin boards of any of the down town colleges. My son lives with two others in an apartment in the Heights and his share of the rent his $600 a month. It is doable if you can get a foot in the door. The employment opportunities are excellent so you can find a part time job to fund some of this.</p>
<p>“—Except that most students make their college choice as a high school senior and hone these skills over the course of their college education.”</p>
<p>that’s unfortunate because by then they will have already spent the money and need a job to repay the loans</p>
<hr>
<p>" and btw#2, CASmom, the days when engineers/scientists/businesspersons were incapable of reading and writing anything other than equations are long gone."</p>
<p>----I’m having a little trouble finding the place in any of my posts where I said or even implied this. Perhaps you could find that for me?</p>
<p>sorry, i had the impression you considered the value of a humanities education is in “honing” these skills. glad to know you recognize they don’t have a franchise on such skills</p>
<hr>
<p>----The nice thing about having a dialogue with posters like Hanna is they know how to disagree without being disagreeable. Other posters…not so much. </p>
<p>i guess if the shoe fits, wear it but…“i’m having a little trouble finding the place in any of my posts where…”</p>
I know someone who graduated in IUP this year and is enrolled in CMU for a masters in information systems that he can get in 18 months. So there are opportunities in the lower tier schools for someone who wants to take advantage of it at affordable rates.<br>
If someone decides to go to a $50K+ undergrad school, it is not out of necessity; they are making a choice to buy an expensive product and should be held responsible for the consequences.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse: Which Heights? Washington Heights? Brooklyn Heights? DD is scouting out an apartment and can’t find anything that would bring her share down to $600 per month. More like $1200. But they are not sharing a bedroom. Is that the different?</p>
<p>She s 23 and college grad, and it’s her money, but it is loan money (law school.) Her tuition is very reasonable ($10K) so I think she feels she can ease up on rent. But that’s a big difference.</p>
<p>As for reasonable options and NYC – SUNY Purchase is a reasonable option with a 3/4 of an hour commute. Not really much at all.</p>
<p>Of course, it’s not the same as living in NYC.</p>
<p>And Barnard/Columbia has much, much better financial aid. Barnard was considerably cheaper for her and has stronger academics too (with the exception of Tisch and Stern as noted.)</p>
<p>I think cptofthehouse’s point is that there are other colleges where most NYU students would be relatively certain of admission that may be more affordable. Barnard/Columbia have their share of cross-admits, but in general are probably harder to get into, so may not be an option for the student with their heart set on NYU and its crappy aid policies. </p>
<p>I, too, would like to know which “Heights” the $600 room is in as my daughter is now couch-surfing in a very-far-uptown apartment while commuting to a job in Brooklyn (where her intended roommate does not particularly want to live)</p>
I don’t know why people always say NYU is only worth is for Stern/Tisch. NYU has several programs ranked #1-#5 in the country in its other schools (Arts and Science, Steinhardt, etc). Tisch is very prestigious, but it’s hardly practical for most people to go into *serious debt<a href=“over%20$80k%20or%20so”>/i</a> for a degree in musical theatre either. </p>
<p>Growing up in NY I never thought of Barnard as being more prestigious than NYU. I hate to refer to rankings because they’re hardly an unbiased method, but both NYU and Barnard are ranked about #30 in their categories. Maybe since Barnard is affiliated with Columbia, people assume it’s a top 10 school or something? Regardless, NYU does give merit scholarships which ivies do not. I’m on close to a full scholarship at NYU and sure didn’t get one from either ivy I was accepted to! (Since ivies already attract the best students, they don’t need to “lure” them with scholarships I guess - makes sense). The need-based aid at ivies is significantly better though.
Probably Morningside Heights or Washington Heights. I’m struggling to find an apartment within 30 mins of NYU for under $1000/month in rent (not counting utilities).</p>
<p>Yes, the Ed program is ranked highly, but IMO “it’s hardly practical for most people to go into serious debt (over $80k or so) for a degree in” education either.</p>