<p>“How about a law that does let a student “give back” their diploma and credits and get a refund of their tuition? Money borrowed for room and board would have to be paid back.”</p>
<p>Because I would borrow 100% of my tuition cost and do that in a heart beat. Infact, I’d major in 5 things as an undergrad and get 3 masters degrees. It’s not like a private company cares about the piece of paper itself, just what the piece of paper represents.</p>
<p>Calmom,
<p>Nothing is going to change unless students and their parents change. Colleges and financial institutions will market it and spin it in every conceivable way, they will talk about the value of a degree from NYU or where ever, unless they find students refusing to come to that college. Any attempt to change laws will be met with a lot of resistance. </p>
<p>Hence till something changes, my advice would to follow the principles of Caveat emptor, or “Let the buyer beware”. Does not help the lady in this case, but hopefully will help readers of CC.</p>
<p>Are we saying that we shouldn’t have our kids pursue majors with low prospect of obtaining an employment?</p>
<p>Whether this young woman took out 100k loan or not, her major still cost 200k+, and she is only able to earn $22/hr.</p>
<p>The state school is not cheap either. The Cost of admission at PSU this year is about 29K from 24K last year. It is a 20% increase. For out of state applicant, it is about 39K. Yes, it is cheaper than that of most of private school but not that much. I am sure that 20% increase year over year is not sustainable.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>We’re not saying that, but our economy is (if to do it you need six figures of debt). At the end of the day we live in a market economy and it’s no secret that the market values those with some degrees over others… and religious and women’s studies are probably not very high up on that list–especially in this economy.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but that’s how things are. When it comes time for students and families to make these decisions they need to take all factors into play. </p>
<p>I’m not saying don’t study religious and women’s studies as an undergrad… but I would say don’t go six figures into debt to do it at a particular expensive school and then whine afterwards because nobody wants to pay you and now the bank is asking for its money back.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How many places are there in the engineering departments of top 20 schools? Most engineers probably did not go to top twenty schools. I went to a UC school, not sure exactly where it’s ranks, but I’ve only been out of work about 6 months out of a 25+ year career, and I make a perfectly adequate living. I have engineers working for me, and in our group that went to all ranges of schools, from MIT and Caltech, to Cal State schools. </p>
<p>Not everybody can get into MIT, and not everybody who gets in wants to take out huge amounts of debt. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Are you mid-career or a new graduate? Are you certain this is solely because of where you went to school?</p>
<p>I will admit that it is probably easier for someone from MIT, all other things being equal. But that doesn’t mean you have to go to a school like that to get a job. </p>
<p>Well, I certainly wish you luck. I’m sure you’ll eventually find something reasonable. I know it is not easy out there,and I didn’t mean to imply that it was. I really just meant to say that not everybody can go to MIT, or a top twenty for that matter.</p>
<p>Since students can only deduct $2,500 of student loan interest each year, my rule of thumb is that overall college debt should not be much more than the debt that would produce that much interest. Thus, the maximum student indebtedness shouldn’t be too much more than $33,000, and that is for all four years.</p>
<p>I <em>did</em> explain all this to DD. Victory!!! She is attending a public law school with a tuition of under $11K a year. She wants public law so the flashy degree is not necessary. She did get offered over $30K a year at a T1 law school but decided she’d rather be in NYC making connections then go to a different part of the country.</p>
<p>She has no undergraduate debt, but will be in debt about $70K when she graduates law school. I’ll help her pay the loans if she can’t. She has wanted to be a lawyer since she was 5 years old.</p>
<p>Victory.</p>
<p>When we started this process she was considering paying full freight for an elite law school. With living expenses her debt could have been as high as $200K.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Very good advice. Having more debt and having to pay that extra debt back with after tax money only makes the whole financial situation even worse.</p>
<p>According to most of the people in the engineering sub-forum here, if you want an engineering job, you’ll get a job with a decent starting salary from your state flagship in whichever state. Top engineering schools are necessary if you want to work in finance or consulting.</p>
<p>Since several people say that personal finance should be taught in school, I wanted to let you know that the Commonwealth of Virginia will require all students who graduate in the Class of 2014 to take this class. … It’s about time, and yes, my youngest son will be taking it.</p>
<p>But you know something? There will be kids who still take out those big loans, believing that they will graduate into a six-figure job.</p>
<p>We as a nation are putting our children at a disadvantage with respect to the whole world. No where in the world the cost of undergraduate education is so high for its citizen.</p>
<p>But when it comes to providing jobs do we pay our citizen and graduate of our universities more than other?
Anyone who graduates anywhere can come to USA and will actually benefit from the salary because their education didn’t cost them that much and so can work for less than the prevailing rates here and still be better off.</p>
<p>But children who graduate from US Universities after huge loan can’t even think of accepting jobs in other countries because they will be paid even less than prevailing wages in US.
Now they even loose against foreign competition at home because they can’t go as low as them because of huge loan burden.</p>
<p>Employers when come to job opportunities go for cheaper fresh college graduates than higher cost NCG (new college graduates).
An engineer from top Indian universities in bad times had 100% placements but the top crown in the engineering world (MIT) didn’t. It was a shame that the companies that refused to hire a NCG from MIT were the one hiring NCG in India.</p>
<p>Now to some it may be not a cause of concern but they miss the actual problem here.
<p>This is from my personal experience and experience of many of my friends. I don’t have a degree from USA and my parent paid nothing except the Dorm/food for my 4 years of undergrad education and my post graduation was fully paid with an allowance. </p>
<p>I would be happy if DD would be able to get a return on her education like me after her MIT degree but I know odds are not in her favor but at least she won’t have a loan to worry about.</p>
<p>Most of the companies I know don’t hire NCG here in USA but hire annually at my Alma mater (both my UG and PG universities). </p>
<p>I was never able to figure why because hiring NCG is a most important investment a company can made but I think the culture here is not to wait for the results.</p>
<p>I bet if this girl’s mother was warned on CC back in 2005 to not take on that type of college loan debt she would have balked at the warning, especially since the economy was strong at that time. Personally I think this is a case of “keeping up with the Jones.”</p>
<p>The mom says that she was so proud of her being in a good college. I understand that as parents our childrens’ accomplishments make us proud and do validate how well we raised them, but we all have our different priorities. I am proud that my daughter turned down an elite school to accept a great scholarship at a state school that will leave her and I debt free. Even though going to the Elite school would have been a dream, she is proud that her academic accomplishments have earned her so much. Yes, our common sense had us give up the dream. 
<a href=“I%20am%20also%20glad%20she%20plans%20to%20pursue%20a%20major%20with%20a%20positive%20employment%20outlook.”>i</a>*</p>
<p>Oh, I am also amazed that this woman and her mother have agreed to be interviewed. I would be embarrassed to admit to something like this. This reminds me of that one comedian’s joke of “Here’s your sign.”</p>
<p>“This reminds me of that one comedian’s joke of “Here’s your sign.””</p>
<p>Bill Engvall if you didn’t remember the name. </p>
<p>“But you know something? There will be kids who still take out those big loans, believing that they will graduate into a six-figure job.”</p>
<p>I’m told that in 2009 (in the middle of a recession) the 18.5% of Ross BBA graduates that ended up in IBanking had a median 1st year compensation of about 117K. Given, that’s 65 kids in one of probably 10 colleges that can place kids like that. But it does happen. </p>
<p>By the way, I’m not trying to argue the point. I know the vast vast majority of those borrowing this money aren’t going to make those salaries.</p>
<p>This post is in response to calmom’s (post #86) and Singersmom07’s (post #104) allegations that NYU’s financial aid letter is deceptive and ctyankee’s (post #106) request that someone post their financial aid letter from NYU. My daughter was accepted at NYU as an early decision applicant in December of 2006 and I was able to root through my files and find her original acceptance package, including the financial aid letter. The financial aid letter is tucked inside a 13-page brochure that describes in great detail every type of financial aid offered by or through NYU, the State of New York, and the Federal Government, including scholarships, grants, work study, and loans, as well as offering info on payment plans, tuition stabilization plans, etc.</p>
<hr>
<p>"New York University is pleased to offer you the following estimated financial aid award for the 2007-2008 academic year.</p>
<p>Source: $Fall $Spring $Total</p>
<p>CAS Scholarship x,xxx x,xxx x,xxx
Federal Work-Study Eligibility x,xxx x,xxx x,xxx
Expected Perkins Loan x,xxx x,xxx x,xxx
Suggested Stafford Loan x,xxx x,xxx x,xxx
Suggested PLUS Loan xx,xxx xx,xxx xx,xxx
______ ______ ______</p>
<p>Total Awards: xx,xxx xx,xxx xx,xxx</p>
<p>Your award is based on the assumption that you will enroll for a minimum of 16 points in the fall and 16 points in the spring semester in the College of Arts and Sciences in 2007-2008. It is presumed that you will live on campus. If any of these assumptions are inaccurate or change during the academic year…and on and on."</p>
<hr>
<p>I don’t have an MBA and I understood it pretty well, and any questions that I did have were answered in the 13-page brochure. We get a similar letter and 13-page brochure every June to confirm the coming academic year’s financial aid package. The same information is also available 24/7 on NYU’s financial aid website. How anyone could not understand that this financial aid package contains loans is beyond me.</p>
<p>NOTE: The reason that the letter refers to our financial aid package as “estimated” is because she was accepted ED and the final package was pending our official FAFSA submission. We received a letter confirming this exact award in April.</p>
<p>Oops…Sorry the columns won’t line up, but I think you get the idea.</p>
<p>From the article:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Can you imagine this happening?</p>
<p>Re post #157:</p>
<p>It’s deceptive because a proper financial aid award does NOT include this line:
</p>
<p>as part of “Total Awards”. </p>
<p>A PLUS loan is NOT a financial “award” – it is a federally subsidized program that is available to ALL families, regardless of need, to fill the GAP between “Total Awards” and Cost of Attendance. </p>
<p>As an ED applicant I can understand why you would not know that – you probably didn’t see how other colleges package their aid – but to characterize the PLUS loan as being an “award” is misleading and deceptive.</p>
<p>I’d also add that the reason that you got exactly the award you were promised in the spring is that the NYU award does not attempt to meet full need. If you had lost your job in November and your year’s income ended up being 15% less than expected – so that your FAFSA numbers showed a significant increase in need – you STILL would have gotten the same award from NYU. That’s fine --it’s their right to leverage aid they way that they do – but it is not a particularly good sign that an award premised on need shows no variation between the time of the award letter and the actual award.</p>
<p>Here’s an example of an award letter from my d’s college:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You’ll note no mention of the PLUS loan – the figure that NYU characterizes as an “award” of a “suggested PLUS loan” would show up under the “Remaining Need” category.</p>
<p>bovertine,</p>
<p>I am in the new grad/entry-level category. UC-Berkeley is ranked 3 in undergraduate engineering programs that offer a Phd. For engineering grad school, UC-San Diego is 13. For engineering grad school, UC-LA is 15. I don’t claim that school prestige is the sole factor in hiring decisions and doubt anyone would.</p>