<p>My son is planning on BM in viola performance in the fall. He's been accepted at Indiana -Jacobs & UW Madison, with several auditions outstanding. He seems driven & sufficiently talented to make it. </p>
<p>However, he's taken a difficult course load (due to conflicts with choir & orchestra, he's "only" taking 3 AP courses this year!) He wasn't interested in cutting back to BC Calculus (1 semester credit) when auditions were stressing him because "it wasn't fun if it wasn't challenging". So - I'm concerned about next year, when he's going to be doing nothing but music, and his few academic courses are likely to be easy for him. He loves music, but he also enjoys math, history, politics...... How do children who have what it takes in music, but also have broad outside interests, fare in the conservatory setting?</p>
<p>My daughter, who did very well in Math in high school, went to Oberlin with the intention of doing a dual degree in Double Bass performance and Math. She found that Math in college after the first year is a whole lot more challenging and time consuming than Math in high school, even the AP classes. Eventually, she had to drop the Math degree in order to be able to keep up with her practicing.</p>
<p>Your son should be able to find challenging academic classes at Indiana and Wisconsin and most other conservatories that are associated with a University or LAC. At most stand-alone conservatories he would be able to cross-register at another nearby school that has more challenging academic classes.</p>
<p>Ditto, what BassDad said. Older son is a college junior physics/math major and just had a take home quiz in Math that took 5 hours to solve one problem. (He was the only one in the class that was able to solve it.) This is the first year he has had to work at Math.</p>
<p>My son is a freshman in high school and he will have to make the decision at some point whether to go for a performance degree in piano or to go into math/science. The Peabody Institute has a good review of the double degree “dilemma”, but it’s not clear whether that is a solution or just a very difficult (and expensive) way to put off the decision. People have already begun to tell my son that piano is a great avocation and that a career in science/math is better. (It’s quite annoying.) However, after speding 30 years in engineering and computer science, I can give lots of examples where the jobs, security, and happiness are not good. The father of the violinist in my son’s piano trio has a PhD in physics and works at MIT. It’s not just in music where there is immense competition for the most coveted jobs. The pay might be good in the lower tier jobs, but will one be happy?</p>
<p>My son’s life has revolved around music since he was 6, but he will also go on and on about quarks and string theory. Last year, he shared a recital with a senior who ended up going to Dartmouth for science. Another musician in our town went to Brown for computer science. The signs are not good for music because many musicians are enormously smart in other areas.</p>
<p>Have there been any threads here about whether kids (who could have gone to a top school in science/math) feel like they have made the right choice? Maybe a double degree will not be just a delay, but will make the choice obvious. It also seems like the time involved with a performance degree and a degree in computer science add up to more than 24 hours a day. You would end up hating both.</p>
<p>You could say that between the choice of music and math, music has had an unfair advantage for my son. He received private lessons since he was 6. In math, he got me trying to fix up whatever you call what he received in school. Since he was so far ahead in music, that’s where the interesting opportunities came. When it came to summer camps, music easily won out over science camps. He is an “A” student in math and science, but he is far from the level he is in music.</p>
<p>Piano Parent, it would take me about an hour to assemble the links, but look for threads/posts by Yelopen (clarinetist/comp sci? at Yale), bratsche (Brown ug worked seven years in non-music field, back for MM Indiana? with amazing offers last cycle), team-mom (Princeton/horn, studying privately in NYC), stringkeymom (violinist at Yale), FantomBassoon accepted Peabody/JHU, decided not to double at Peabody), just off the top of my head. Terrence C (vocal at Harvard), Bassplayer08 (maybe I’m thinking more pm exchanges here rather than on forum background; accepted at Columbia & Juilliard but not the joint program; decided on Juilliard). The joint program threads Columbia/Juilliard, Harvard, Yale, all have snippets of opinion and observation. </p>
<p>Look at the acceptance threads from the last few cycles, and maybe find additional direct input from the many I did not name that chose the academic/combo route.</p>
<p>If you have no luck, let me know, I’ll see what I can pull. If you find a couple of the joint threads, I’ve already posted crosslinks in many, which will help finding the others.</p>
<p>Someone who doubled very successfully: Ali Yazdanfar, Prof at McGill U for Double Bass, graduated with a BA in Physics from Johns Hopkins while studying at Peabody, too. His bio doesn’t say if he was a degree candidate at Peabody, however. So it can be done.</p>
<p>It’s really interesting. My S (a vocalist) is a sophomore in HS and all of his teachers, competition judges, etc. urge him to major in music. All of the professional musicians that we know urge him to major in anything BUT music. It is just so difficult to earn a living as a performer. S says he doesn’t want to end up as a voice teacher so we’re thinking that he needs to come up with another career plan. My older D is majoring in musical theatre but even she knows that she will most likely end up working in another field.</p>
<p>My son is at Bard pursuing a double degree. He did not choose Bard at the time specifically for that reason, but now would not ever consider a different path.</p>
<p>Some of the comments on the Bard Conservatory website about their mandatory double degree program:</p>
<p>“Music, like all art, engages the mind and the heart. It redefines boundaries and questions limits in order to make a meaningful statement about the human condition. The education of the mind is, therefore, as important as the education of the fingers. The greatest musicians not only have the technical mastery to communicate effectively, but also are deeply curious and equally adept at analytical and emotional modes of thought.”</p>
<p>Robert Martin: “…we are committed to a simple but powerful idea about the kind of education that gifted young musicians need and deserve. We believe that a broad education in the liberal arts and sciences is not a luxury but a necessity for a successful musician. Intellectual fearlessness and the tools for self-education, the hallmarks of the liberal arts tradition, are precisely what the young musician needs for a successful career in the 21st century.”</p>
<p>Melvin Chen: "When I applied to college, I was looking primarily for two things. I was seeking a place where I could become a better performing musician through the guidance of outstanding teachers and through interactions with excellent fellow students. I also wanted a place where I could freely explore my various intellectual interests. As a curious person, I saw the opportunity to expand my horizons and broaden my mind as tremendously exciting.</p>
<p>“At The Bard College Conservatory you will have the unique opportunity to become the best musician and the best thinker you can be. You will find that the musical training you receive from your teacher and the liberal arts courses the College offers will not only complement each other but will inspire the work that you do in all areas. The full resources of the College, including the faculty, libraries, and, most important, the other students, are fully available while you explore the fields that interest you most.”</p>
<p>Khatlestad, for what it’s worth, your son may wish to select the MOST rigorous academic school to which he is accepted, and where he still has the music studio he wants. So if he’s leaning toward Indiana, for example, I would suggest that he enroll in the honors program if that is possible. (I know it’s possible at University of Michigan, although a tad time consuming.) Strong options in the rigor dept include schools such as Northwestern, Rice, USC, John Hopkins/Peabody, Oberlin as dual, etc.)</p>
<p>My son is at a university school of music presently where the school itself is known to be rigorous (UMich). While there is a trade-off to a degree (he misses pure sciences) there is no lack of “academic” development from what I can tell. Music theory as taught at a rigorous school is “a dimensional puzzle” for a 3D thinker – and he now loves it, and finds it challenging (he’d loved math, as many music students do…). At his school, his musicology classes have been MORE demanding and rigorous than some of his honors English. His curricula is slightly different that a straight BMUS degree (rough equivalent of music tech) But between electives, core BMUS courses taught by incredibly intelligent professors at a strong school, the availability of dual degrees/double majors over 5 years, and the very viable possibility of continuing study at the graduate level, there’s really nothing to lose so long as he is able to access the resources he needs to pursue knowledge – formally, or independently.</p>
<p>Khatlestad, for what it’s worth, your son may wish to select the MOST rigorous academic school to which he is accepted, and where he still has the music studio he wants. So if he’s leaning toward Indiana, for example, I would suggest that he enroll in the honors program if that is possible. (I know it’s possible at University of Michigan, although a tad time consuming.) Strong options in the rigor dept include schools such as Northwestern, Rice, USC, John Hopkins/Peabody, Oberlin as dual, etc.)</p>
<p>My son is at a university school of music presently where the school itself is known to be rigorous (UMich). While there is a trade-off to a degree (he misses pure sciences) there is no lack of “academic” development from what I can tell. Music theory as taught at a rigorous school is “a dimensional puzzle” for a 3D thinker – and he now loves it, and finds it challenging (he’d loved math, as many music students do…). At his school, his musicology classes have been MORE demanding and rigorous than some of his honors English. His curricula is slightly different that a straight BMUS degree (rough equivalent of music tech) But between electives, core BMUS courses taught by incredibly intelligent professors at a strong school, the availability of dual degrees/double majors over 5 years, and the very viable possibility of continuing study at the graduate level, there’s really nothing to lose so long as he is able to access the resources he needs to pursue knowledge – formally, or independently.</p>
<p>DS and I just toured the University of Chicago this morning (it’s a local trip for us), and this thread is so timely. UChicago would be a great intellectual fit for him, he could easily do math or physics there, the social life would be good for him, etc. B</p>
<p>But there’s no music curriculum, to speak of, at least on an undergraduate level. There’s plenty of opportunities to play music, with university groups and student groups (and downtown Chicago a half hour away), but there’s no performance degree, no on-campus opportunities for lessons, etc. </p>
<p>We are still looking, as well. DS is a junior, so we have a little time yet. He fell in love with Oberlin when we visited around Thanksgiving, and I’m looking still for those good LAC’s with strong performance (or jazz studies) programs. It’s tough. :(</p>
<p>trumpetguysmom, might be worth a private message to the poster Cosmos, an exceptional performer (double bass), did her undergrad at UChicago; this might be her senior year) and she had her private instruction through one of the musicians at CSO. She has had top flight festival experiences each summer while she was there. </p>
<p>I haven’t seen her post in a while, but my guess is she still lurks on the board. </p>
<p>I’m sure she can give you an in depth feel for what it is really like at UChicago for a musician.</p>
<p>Some LAC’s and small LAC-like Universities with good music programs (not exhaustive by any means):
Baldwin-Wallace College
Bard College
Chapman University
DePauw University
Furman University
Lawrence University
Loyola University (New Orleans)
Oberlin College
Saint Olaf College
SUNY Potsdam (Crane)</p>
<p>My S is also one of those kids who is both serious about music and has broad outside interests. He is in his freshman year in the Tufts/NEC dual degree program. So far, he loves it because he isn’t having to sacrifice one passion for the other. My husband and I had been concerned that he’d want to drop out of one of the programs after the first semester; but his experience, if anything, has reinforced his decision to pursue the dual degree program. It’s tough - he takes 4 courses at each school. But, it helps that the dual degree students are a tight group. He’s also thinking that he won’t pursue a performance career because he sees that a successful performer has to not only be an absolutely outstanding musician but also a relentless self promoter and the later talent isn’t something he has. This realization hasn’t dimmed his love of music, however.</p>
<p>Thanks for the information violadad. I read the whole Dual Degree thread. I knew about programs like NEC/Harvard, but was wondering whether a consecutive, rather than concurrent approach might be better.</p>
<p>Is it possible to make college visits and talk with specific people? I think my son would love to talk with Melvin Chen at Bard. He loves chemistry and has memorized the periodic table. (but I can’t get him to sing Tom Lehrer’s song) He would also love to talk with Steven Gubser at Princeton (physics). He read Steven Gubser’s book on string theory and seen his video on “A Chopin Etude and conformal field theory”.</p>
<p>Be aware that it is very hard to get financial aid for a second bachelors degree once you already have the first one. A consecutive approach can be a very expensive proposition.</p>
<p>It would be possible to switch directions and get a graduate degree in a different discipline than the undergrad degree, but in that case you may need to take a lot of courses in support of the intended graduate degree while working on the bachelors degree. A lot of the work has to be done concurrently in this scenario as well.</p>
<p>It is sometimes possible to meet specific people if the scheduling has been worked out in advance via email or phone call. I would not expect to be able to just drop in on someone while you happened to be visiting.</p>
<p>I was thinking more about switching directions. It seems like it might be easier to keep up music on the side rather than physics. If you can pull off a good audition, can you go into a masters program in music? It seems like you can pick up some of the music courses while you’re majoring in physics or pre-med.</p>
<p>We would never just drop in on anyone. However, is it uncommon to try and meet specific people? We would be interested in particular people or departments rather than just the school. I was at UMich in engineering and one could call the department and set up a visit. They would try to get you in to meet several professors. You wouldn’t call the college of engineering.</p>
<p>In music, it is usual for the student to arrange a sample lesson with one or more teachers. In many cases, expect to pay for this at the teacher’s private lesson rate. This is normally done by contacting the teacher directly, not the department or the college. You may be able to arrange a short conference at no charge, but having the sample lesson gives you a much better feeling of what it would be like to study with that teacher. Music undergrad is a lot more like grad school in other disciplines in that you really want to make a decision based on a specific teacher because you will be working one-on-one a lot.</p>
<p>In other fields, you can do pretty much what you did at UM.</p>
<p>You can audition into some graduate music programs from other majors, but you are likely to be competing against people who have spent the last four years (including summers and breaks) practicing 4-5 hours per day, playing with lots of ensembles and studying very specific orchestral excerpts that are known to be popular for grad school and professional auditions. Competition on piano or violin is particularly tough. You may also have a fair amount of music theory and music history to catch up on if you did not get those in undergrad. It is not a matter of keeping up music on the side because that is not going to cut it at a grad school audition. It is a matter of devoting a lot of extra time that you may not have while studying another subject. While there are exceptions, those who do a double degree program generally take at least five very busy years to get through it. Auditions for grad school generally require at least one large scale piece to be memorized, which can be very time consuming, and there is a lot of traveling involved for auditions. Music schools know this is going to happen in senior year and allow for it. Science or Enginering departments do not in most cases.</p>
<p>PianoParent,
We had a visit with Melvin Chen at Bard several years ago and he couldn’t have been nicer. This was in '06 when DS was a junior and when the Bard Conservatory was pretty new, but he seemed to really enjoy talking about Bard’s unique double degree program and showing us around. I highly recommend contacting him to arrange a meeting.</p>
<p>DS is a senior at Wesleyan where he has done a double major in philosophy and music. He chose Wes for its academic rigor and hoped the music would work out. He has not been disappointed. Right now he is in the middle of auditioning for MM programs in piano performance and has just gotten “likely” emails from two top schools. So it looks as if he will be going to grad school next year (we’re not counting our chickens yet but feeling quite relieved and optimistic).</p>
<p>He was determined to study something besides music in college but managed to do a lot of playing/practicing, with very intensive work over the summers and during breaks. </p>
<p>All of the graduate programs that he looked into required at least a B.A. degree with a music major. It’s hard to imagine a student getting into one without the basic undergraduate music courses in music history and music theory under his/her belt.</p>
<p>In addition to Wesleyan, I would add Brandeis University to BassDad’s list of small schools with strong academics and good music programs.</p>