<p>The Paducah High School shooting was stopped by the Vice-Principal who went to his car and grabbed his gun.</p>
<p>This <em>might</em> be a good idea.</p>
<p>If a school shooting occurs, this may be useful, provided that a student with a gun and who knows how to use it IS in the area, AWARE of the situation, and has balls enough to put his own life at risk to engage the shooter and kill another person. Of course, there are hillbilly old farts in TX that have no problem with dispensing this kind of justice, but would that be the typical CCW-carrying student?</p>
<p>Also, look at the possible cons. Frat boys with pistols in their waistband flashing it around all the time to impress people. Drunken altercations (knives have been pulled before in stupidity, of course guns could as well).</p>
<p>Vigilante justice: maybe a girl or guy thinks his/her friend is being taken advantage of sexually. Or maybe a fist fight occurs somewhere. Cue taking out gun and bad s*** happening.</p>
<p>Now of course you say people are legally allowed to have guns off-campus anyway, but I contend that allowing guns on campus may lead to a paradigm shift or somehow a “condoning” of guns all of the sudden. People don’t carry guns off-campus because if someone knows they own a gun all the sudden they are the next “Cho” or belltower psychopath. Now of course with the new laws someone with a gun might be seen as some sort of stoic protector. Not a certainly, but definitely a possibility. The law in effect are “condoning” gun culture at universities.</p>
<p>Not a clear cut issue I think. Plus, most universities have extensive campus police. If there won’t be much of an increase in handgun carriers anyway, then where is the benefit? Where’s the added security?</p>
<p>I just thought of another thing.</p>
<p>Imagine a school shooting does occur at a school where CCW are allowed.</p>
<p>As school-wide alert systems go off, are we going to see a rush of CCW carriers “to the scene” - handguns drawn? Can we see the problem with this scenario? Can we see the problem with multiple gun carriers arriving at a given locaion?</p>
<p>Who are they going to shoot? Who’s the shooter? How do you think the police are going to respond to them?</p>
<p>I know this plan sounds like a quick-fix solution we’re all hopin will solve all our problems but I have my doubts.</p>
<p>Why would they run to the location? If they are there, they can shoot them, otherwise, unless they’re a complete idiot, they would likely stay where they were and lock the door, as the school goes into lockdown.</p>
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<p>Again, go back to the verifiable stats. People who go through the effort of getting a CCW (no small feat in some places, easier in others) typically take the responsibility very seriously, no matter what their age (and remember, these people are all over 21). This type of thing just doesn’t happen with any regularity now - there’s no logic that says that it will start as soon as someone sets foot on a university campus.</p>
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<p>Again, people with CCWs know when it is justifiable to use a gun and when it isn’t, and hold to that responsibility. If you think that this happens a lot, where is the proof? The numbers just don’t agree with you.</p>
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<p>I don’t think so. You forget that in many states, it is already legal for most people with CCW permits to carry on university campuses. Its only students that are forbidden (and technically, they are only forbidden from carrying by university rules, not any legally enforceable statute). Even in CA, people with CCWs can already carry on university campuses. Forbidding schools from banning carry by students does not represent any paradigm shift.</p>
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<p>First, there’s a huge difference between carrying a gun and just owning one. And I think you’ll find that you’re wrong here as well. You would be amazed how many gun owning (and if not gun-owning, at least interested in guns or pro-gun rights) students I knew at UCLA. And now that I am in a more gun-friendly state, I have met lots of students with CCWs, even more who admit that their parents have CCWs and they have no problem with them, etc. etc. </p>
<p>But more than that, if you think that just because someone owns a gun or choses to carry it that they are the next school shooter, you need to reexamine that connection and stop overreacting to legal activities.</p>
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<p>This didn’t help much at VTech unfortunately. Police can’t be everywhere at all times.</p>
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<p>Just the fact that there won’t be a huge increase in carriers on campus is not a valid reason to continue to forbid CCW on campus. We don’t base laws on how many people we think will make use of it. Laws are (should be) based on what is fair and just.</p>
<p>And added security comes from the very possibility of coming across an armed person willing to defend themselves. That in itself can be a deterrent (certainly not always, but it can be to some people)</p>
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<p>No - you most certainly wouldn’t see that. CCW holders don’t see themselves as psuedo-cops or “heroes” in any way. You don’t seek out a conflict - the purpose of carrying a gun is to defend yourself (or others) from a lethal threat that presents itself, not that you seek out.</p>
<p>Just to add some more… this is why you need to be aware of all of the issues and responsibilities of carrying a gun before you even apply for a CCW.</p>
<p>You need to think through how you would respond to various situations, what is legal in your state, learn at least minimal tactical knowledge, what to do after you use your gun in defense, how to deal with police, etc. etc. and talk it over with a CCW instructor or someone else. </p>
<p>Like I have said, this is a huge responsibility, and should not be taken lightly.</p>
<p>If you think fear of death was a deterrent for any of the psycopaths willing to reak havoc and say “F you” to the world, you must be kidding yourself.</p>
<p>I’m also skeptical over “the numbers.” If a gun incident (where a gun is drawn, but maybe not fired) doesn’t get reported to the police, it’s not recorded anywhere.</p>
<p>My friend, who’s pretty intelligent and whose father is a cop, thinks its okay to draw your gun “at a suspicious character” walking down the street opposite you at night. He might mug you, says my friend. I certainly hope CCW carriers are better informed, but your optimism is staggering.</p>
<p>No one ever got rich betting on the intelligence of the average American - CCW carrier, NRA member, or otherwise.</p>
<p>While I do believe that having adept, responsible gun owners armed on campus is a benefit to security, I doubt it will have a significant impact. It sounds great in theory, but I doubt the practicality of it. </p>
<p>Besides the small percentage of actual armed students, the thought that these few would be successful in preventing gun crimes is rather speculative. Supporters also seem to be placing a lot of assumptions upon the armed student. To be even remotely effective, the armed individual has to be aware, has to have good aim, has to be in the right position, has to know how to act intelligently under extreme circumstances, ect. When I think of people in which all of the above can be applied to, I think of trained proffesionals. Increased security, in my eyes, would have a greater effect, realistically. </p>
<p>In contrast, I do think there is a potential for armed students to endanger others, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Sure angry frat-boy tools could harm someone, but responsible individual making mistakes could as well. However, I don’t see the risk in having armed professors…</p>
<p>Edit: Sorry if I have repeated someone’s point; I have only read the first few posts.</p>
<p>True. Professors only shoot other full-grown adults. I’d leave the room if his wife walked in, however.</p>
<p>^Ummm… excuse me asking this, but what exactly are you referring to? The last part confused me…</p>
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<p>No, I certainly do not think it is much of a deterrent for these people - I was referring more to the small time criminal… the mugger, robber, etc.</p>
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<p>I’m assuming you’re referring to “incidents” that are unlawful for which a CCW license is revoked. Those incidents are not necessarily cases where the licencee pulled his/her gun on someone unlawfully (on the pretext of defense). It just means any crime that a licencee commits that involves a firearm (i.e. can be completely unrelated to a wrongful self-defense case)</p>
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<p>Well, clearly the “pretty intelligent” part might be overstating things a bit if that’s how he thinks 
At the very least, he clearly does not know enough about situational awareness and tactical assessment, nor is he mature enough to carry a gun. He clearly didn’t get this idea from his father - if he did, I’m sure his dad won’t be a cop much longer…</p>
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<p>No, we’re not - we’re placing a lot of emphasis on the idea that there is no logical basis for denying the right of CCW to students based on an artificial line around university campuses.</p>
<p>It really has less to do with the “oh, it would prevent school shootings, etc etc”, and more to do with the idea that an adult that is legally armed everywhere else in his/her daily life should not be disarmed just due to stepping on a campus. The thing about school shootings is that you are denying those students that would choose to carry the ability to defend themselves, which could certainly have the potential to stop such a shooting sooner and not allowing the shooter free reign throughout campus just because no one can carry there. (sorry for the runon sentence)</p>
<p>“No, we’re not - we’re placing a lot of emphasis on the idea that there is no logical basis for denying the right of CCW to students based on an artificial line around university campuses.”</p>
<p>I never said I didn’t support the idea, I just doubt the actual effectiveness it will have. A school setting is a difficult setting to defend yourself in. Much like you don’t see 21 year old gun owners handling situations like mall shootings effectively, I don’t think said individuals would be able to handle school shootings effectively (sorry if that was incohesive). Despite all this, I do believe an individual has a right to protect themselves via gun use, whether in a mall, school, ect. However, if it proves the individual is putting others in danger by attempting to defend themselves, I might reconsider my thoughts.</p>
<p>See the UG professor shooting thread, ronpaul.</p>
<p>Icarus - same reason no one (including adults) is allowed to smoke or drink on high school campuses.</p>
<p>And perhaps this is a step in the wrong direction. Maybe the outside world should begin emulating the practices of universities, and not vice versa. If anything, gun laws are not nearly strict enough at the moment.</p>
<p>And who the hell is the state to tell private universities what they can allow in terms of weapons?</p>
<p>No one carrying a firearm is allowed inside my house - to me it would be akin to handing a chimpanzee or a toddler a loaded shotgun, knowing some of the idiots I know. Why should a private university have any less say.</p>
<p>Yeah, I thought you were talking about the UGA prof, but I wanted to make sure. I don’t know if you were serious or not, but the shootings were off campus.</p>
<p>“If anything, gun laws are not nearly strict enough at the moment.”</p>
<p>Uh oh. You shouldn’t have said that. Prepare for 10 pages of “Blah, blah, blah, guns are good”, “No, blah, blah, blah, guns are bad”</p>
<p>I do have to say I disagree with you. I can’t explain why, though. It’s 3:20 am and I need sleep…</p>
<p>You’re right, I really don’t care.</p>
<p>We should just give every man, woman, and child assault rifles along with a good dosage of PCP. Kick back and watch the entertainment happen.</p>
<p>But frankly, I think every civilian carrying a gun is a p.ussy. Oh yeah, you need personal protection when that teenage girl doesn’t. You need to defend your house, because people break in all the time. Grow up and stop feeling inadequate that your dong is too small, because that’s all it is.</p>
<p>Me? I’ll be waiting across the street, my wallet on your sidewalk, sniper rifle in my hand - just waiting for you to pick it up, so I can feel like a man just like every other card-carrying member of the NRA.</p>
<p>Gun? Hell, I deserve a military grade M-1 tank. Or an F-14 capable bomber. Why doesn’t the government trust us with these weapons? I mean, it’s not the NRAs fault the average IQ of their members is 50. But yeah, I don’t feel like having a tired gun debate; I’ve said my piece and refuse to participate in the back and forth.</p>
<p>peter_parker?</p>
<p>Did you blow a gasket or something? Have you ever been robbed? Or had a gun pulled on you? Have you ever had someone try to break into your house at night?</p>
<p>I have. I don’t own a firearm (not 21 yet so no CCL), but plan on applying for a permit as soon as I turn 21. I want to be sure that the next time a bum pulls a knife on me, he’ll think twice about whether or not it is really worth it.</p>
<p>The world is a dangerous place-but I guess you would prefer it if only criminals had weapons?</p>
<p>You may bow out now, but leaving a ignorant post like that and calling it a quits shows who the “p.ussy” really is.</p>
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<p>This has nothing to do with private universities - they are still free to kick whoever they want off their campus.</p>
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<p>First, I don’t know where you think this is written into law, but even if it is a law where you live (it certainly isn’t anywhere I’ve lived), a counterargument is that smoking and drinking are not constitutionally protected activities. Surely you would not be in favor of a law allowing public universities to prohibit certain expressions of speech on their campus.</p>
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<p>Police are civilians too… I’m sure they’ll be happy to hear your thoughts.</p>
<p>As for the rest of your post - well, I don’t know who peed in your corn flakes this morning, but really you’re just proving the point that those who are staunchly anti-gun don’t actually have any valid arguments that can be defended properly, and so resort to emotional appeals (“its for the children”, etc.) and things like what you just wrote attacking all gun owners.</p>
<p>I’m sorry you feel that way, but I will only respond to arguments, not attacks. Come back when you have some.</p>