MIT Admissions Have Become A Complete Joke

<p>


I don't think that concern necessarily reflects reality. I think by far, the largest cause for people dropping out/transfering is a loss of interest in science, and there's not too much that Caltech can reaslistically do about that except to prioritize interest/passion/etc. in science in admissions first and foremost. That's why athletics and music and whatnot aren't given as much 'credit' per say as at other schools: it's not that we view them as lesser activities, but rather, it's more important for students to survive at Caltech to be exposed to honest science/math/engineering before enrolling. It's really not that complicated of an issue. </p>

<p>The second largest reason for people dropping out/transferring from Caltech is the difficulty of the core curriculum, particularly the second year of physics. No other school requires quantum mechanics and stat mech/thermo from all of its students, so Caltech has some pretty unique needs when it comes to admissions which again leads to emphasizing those activities which directly demonstrate aptitude in math and science.</p>

<p>As for underloading, I'm confident that anyone who feels an underload is necessary to pass would be granted one. A much bigger problem is students overloading and taking more units than they can handle - I wish there was a better solution for that than just trying to convince people that they should maybe ease into things slowly.</p>

<p>Wow, I just found a VERY interesting article at the Chronicle of Higher Education, titled...</p>

<p>A top university wonders why it has no black freshmen</p>

<p>It's on Proquest - search for it there. College Confidential deletes posts with copyrighted content (meh). </p>

<p>===</p>

<p>Thanks for describing the reality, cghen. And so long as Caltech admissions can only still rely on high school tests for its admissions, there's always going to be some number of students who have nice high school stats but who can't tackle the material, just because Caltech's course material is magnitudes harder (and different) from that in high school. There's always the option of an entrance exam for the university (as there is for many universities elsewhere in the world), but since such an exam would be highly unique compared with other universities in the United States, it would significantly depress the number of applicants.</p>

<p>I'll just quote something from the article:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Their abilities notwithstanding, Charlene C. Liebau, director of undergraduate admissions at Caltech, says that black students who choose to enroll at other colleges do so for the same reason that most other students decide to go elsewhere: They are simply not willing to narrow their study options to Caltech's focused curriculum.</p>

<p>"When you go to the kitchen table with all your offers in front of you, that's when the soul-searching takes place," Ms. Liebau says. "You ask, `Am I really ready to make a commitment to math, science, or engineering at this point?' In many cases, the answer is no."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Anyways, while this thread has apparently started to die, I'll just post a few relevant links for the lurkers (seeing that College Confidential is a forum with high lurker/poster ratio):</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=128961&page=4#45%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=128961&page=4#45&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=159399#36%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=159399#36&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=169707%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=169707&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I just searched for someone's posts, and found his posts to be extremely intelligent and well-informed.</p>

<p>I read through the posts, and I think USAMO qualifiers should get into MIT. Maybe not CalTech, because CalTech only takes 200. But MIT's class of 1000 should have room for the roughly 100 USAMO qualifiers that graduate each year. (About 160 qualify each year, but I'm assuming that at least some of them are underclassmen.) If the person gets a GPA with only a couple of "B's" and the rest "A'"s, then admission should be automatic.</p>

<p>Those that disagree with me probably have no idea what USAMO is or what it means.</p>

<p>That's not a bad proposal collegealum; it's certainly a worthy recommendation. However, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this (I myself have participated in various mathematical and physics olympiads).</p>

<p>Some USAMO qualifiers probably can't handle the MIT/Caltech curriculum because of the pure virtue that not all USAMO qualifiers are mathematically motivated. Some qualifiers qualify on a whim - taking the AMC series tests out of superficial interest. Some qualifiers absolutely despise mathematics altogether. </p>

<p>Also, let us not point out the fact that a large number of USAMO qualifiers are recent immigrants from Asia. A lot of qualifiers I've met have pretty bad writing and communication skills. Some qualifiers I know are only good at mathematics - they don't really excel in any other areas.</p>

<p>I don't think these types would fit into the MIT/Caltech environments well.</p>

<p>I disagree with the USAMO statement. It would be fine if everyone treated the AMCs/AIME just like the SAT - but it's not treated in such a way and consequently, those who qualify for USAMO are often those who qualify not due to inherent aptitude or motivation, but rather due to superior resources/more studying even before diminishing marginal returns with each additional hour of study/etc. That's true for the SAT, but even more so for the AMCs/AIME. </p>

<p>The collegeboard, incidentally, puts A LOT of research on the SATs. A HUGE HUGE amount (I've seen the charts, they are incredibly incredibly detailed). Words can't express the amount of effort the Collegeboard puts into collecting data about its tests, and in making sure that its tests would produce fairly consistent results in the same student from year to year (unlike the AIME, where score jumps in both directions are very common). This is certainly not something that the organizers of the AMC/AIME can put into the test. Such research is often needed to prevent the same people from having year-year score jumps on the SAT.</p>

<p>^lol, I sound so immature there. But yeah, the research the CollegeBoard collects is certainly amazing. I'm still naive, so my "threshold of OMG" is still low - that is, I would say OMG at a stimuli that an older person would find non-surprising. The collegeboard could most certainly produce an advanced math test of its own. :P</p>

<p>The best test would be one in which the applicant was evaluated at his maximum level of performance. Two conditions (a) all applicants invest substantial amounts of time and thought into doing the very best they can on the tests, and (b) the test is reliable enough such that an applicant at maximum performance would score in a consistent and narrow range. These conditions aren't exactly true for the SAT, but they work well enough for the SAT to be used in college admissions in the wide group of the population. The problem is that such a test doesn't exist for students who can already score near-perfect.</p>

<p>Also, another thread for the lurkers:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=26083&page=6%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=26083&page=6&lt;/a>
(in which Ben Golub and sakky pretty much exchange many of the similar issues, just 2 years ago).</p>

<p>A college admissions counselor once said (I'm paraphrasing), "If we rejected every one of the top 1500 applicants and accepted the next 1500 instead, almost nothing would happen to the quality of our school. We can do this 5 or 6 times before something would happen."</p>

<p>So MIT couldn't care less about who they accept because it wouldn't be affected at all. It does whatever the heck it wants to do.</p>

<p>
[quote]
We can do this 5 or 6 times before something would happen."

[/quote]
This is wrong at every school, but the spirit is right.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't think that concern necessarily reflects reality. I think by far, the largest cause for people dropping out/transfering is a loss of interest in science, and there's not too much that Caltech can reaslistically do about that except to prioritize interest/passion/etc. in science in admissions first and foremost

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There isn't much that Caltech can do * in the short-term *. In the long term, Caltech could do what MIT did - which is broaden its offerings. Like I said before, MIT started life basically as a trade school dedicated to teaching basically only engineering and sciences. The MIT Sloan School wasn't started until the 1910's. Econ wasn't offered until around the 1930's or so, and the Econ department didn't start offering PhD's until around the 40's. Political science didn't become its own department until the 1960's (before, it was part of the Economics department). Now, it's the #10 ranked graduate poli-sci department in the country according to USNews, which I think is not bad for only being around for 40 years. The MIT Media Lab wasn't founded until the 1980's. </p>

<p>So in the long term, Caltech could choose to broaden its offerings the way that MIT has. In the short term, Caltech might choose to engage in partnerships with nearly schools, i.e. the Claremonts, just like how MIT has extensive cross-reg agreements with local schools like Harvard and Wellesley. </p>

<p>Now, don't get me wrong. I respect Caltech. I am simply saying that if Caltech wanted to eliminate the problem of students who want broader offerings, there are things that could be done for them. In fact, Caltech has already made moves to do this - i.e. offering options in English, Philosophy, and History. I don't think these options have been around for very long; I suspect they were offered precisely to satisfy those students who are looking for broader options. </p>

<p>Besides, I think other Caltech'ers, even Ben Golub, has stated that Caltech s not as harshly rigorous as it was in the old days. {To be fair, MIT isn't either}. That just shows that universities can and do change over time.</p>

<p>Actually, you have it backwards. Near the turn of the century (1900), there was serious concern among ivy league alumni that their undergrad curriculum was outdated. In the 1800's, their curriculum consisted solely of latin and other humanities. This was the impetus for schools like MIT that started up at the end of the 1800's. It's probably not a coincidence this happened right after the Industrial Revolution. Harvard and the other ivies successfully revamped their curriculum to produce graduates that were equipped to work and interact in the modern world. Part of Harvard's push to reinvent itself was the unsuccessful attempt to purchase MIT in the early 1900's. The MIT alumni voted against it.</p>

<p>MIT was already well-respected in the early 1900's, but you're correct that it really made its name in World War II with the development of radar. In order for MIT to successfully do this, however, they needed to have a stellar faculty already in place. This could not have happened overnight. Also, just off the top of my head, they attracted some awesome people before the 40's. Vannevar Bush was an MIT alumnus and was one of the giants of electrical engineering--he was there from the 20's until he retired. The application of mathematical logic to electrical circuits was someone's master's thesis at MIT--obviously a gigantic contribution. In the late 30's, they had both Feynman (one of the top few physicists of the 20th century) and Robert Burns Woodward as undergrads. For those that aren't familiar, Robert Burns Woodward is probably the most talented synthetic chemist in the 20th century, winning the Nobel Prize. The Woodward-Hoffman Rules, a very fundamental tenet you learn in organic chem today, also won the Nobel Prize for Hoffman shortly after Woodward died. So he narrowly missed winning the Nobel a second time.</p>

<p>So, in summary, while MIT became world famous in the 40's, I think it's fair to say it was not some insignificant trade school before then.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Actually, you have it backwards

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What exactly do I have backwards? </p>

<p>
[quote]
This was the impetus for schools like MIT that started up at the end of the 1800's. It's probably not a coincidence this happened right after the Industrial Revolution.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, actually, the American Industrial Revolution is generally credited to have really boomed started after the Civil War, as part of the world's "second Industrial Revolution" (the first happening in the UK about 75 years earlier). This second revolution occurred during the period of Reconstruction to WW1. When was MIT founded? 1861 - the year the Civil War began. Hence, it seems to me that your chronology should be the other way around. MIT was not founded as a response to the US involvement in the Industrial Revolution. Rather, it was actually founded slightly before that, and arguably * contributed * to the development of that revolution.</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Industrial_Revolution%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Industrial_Revolution&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Part of Harvard's push to reinvent itself was the unsuccessful attempt to purchase MIT in the early 1900's. The MIT alumni voted against it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, this story is actually more complicated than that. There were actually several attempts to merge Harvard and MIT. While It is true that the MIT alumni voted against it, that didn't really stop the contemporary efforts and certainly wouldn't have stopped later efforts by the administrations of both schools. What * really * put the kibosh on these efforts was a court ruling barring such a merger. </p>

<p>*The proposed merger nearly became a reality. A majority of trustees from both institutions approved the scheme, but it was financially contingent upon MIT’s ability to sell its property in Boston’s Back Bay to raise funds for rebuilding on Harvard’s land at Soldiers Field. In September 1905 the intended merger failed because the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court determined that MIT could not sell its Back Bay lands without violating the terms under which it had originally acquired them. *</p>

<p><a href="http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/harvard-mit/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/harvard-mit/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
MIT was already well-respected in the early 1900's, but you're correct that it really made its name in World War II with the development of radar. In order for MIT to successfully do this, however, they needed to have a stellar faculty already in place. This could not have happened overnight. Also, just off the top of my head, they attracted some awesome people before the 40's. Vannevar Bush was an MIT alumnus and was one of the giants of electrical engineering--he was there from the 20's until he retired. The application of mathematical logic to electrical circuits was someone's master's thesis at MIT--obviously a gigantic contribution. In the late 30's, they had both Feynman (one of the top few physicists of the 20th century) and Robert Burns Woodward as undergrads. For those that aren't familiar, Robert Burns Woodward is probably the most talented synthetic chemist in the 20th century, winning the Nobel Prize. The Woodward-Hoffman Rules, a very fundamental tenet you learn in organic chem today, also won the Nobel Prize for Hoffman shortly after Woodward died. So he narrowly missed winning the Nobel a second time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, actually, what I am making a twofold point.</p>

<h1>1) Engineering was not a highly respected industry in the US until about WW2 (when technological development was seen to be key to the war effort). Prior to that time, "respectable" American society looked down on engineering, as they basically saw it as glorified handiwork. Heck, even to this day, engineering is still seen as something not quite on par, either financially or socially with, say, law or medicine or finance.</h1>

<h1>2) Before WW2, MIT was nowhere near the major research center that it is today for the simple reason that no US university was. Let's face it. The US as a whole did not become a significant science/technology world power until WW2 - prior to that, the vast majority of Nobel Prizes were won by Europeans, and the vast majority of scientific and technical advances were invented by Europeans. I think I read somewhere that before WW2, as far as the number of science Nobels (hence, not counting Peace or Literature Prizes), the US couldn't match up to even the Netherlands. It was WW2 where US universities, MIT being among the forefront, really stepped onto the world stage. Before that time, MIT and all other US universities (including Harvard) were mere minnows compared to the great European universities such as Oxbridge, and (especially) the constellation of powerful German universities. In fact, the whole model of what a 'research university' is, is based on German universities.</h1>

<p>WW2 basically destroyed Europe's scientific preeminence, and actually contributed to the rise of the US, not only because of the impetus the US government placed on research to help with the war effort, but because many of the top European scientists, including especially Jewish scientists, fled to the US. Europe's loss was the US's gain. If totalitarianism and the war had never happened, I strongly suspect that MIT (and all other US universities) would still be research minnows relative to the Euro-giants, and that the best American students would prefer to study in European schools (which is the mirror image of today, when many of the best European students prefer to study in the US).</p>

<p>I read through the posts, and I think USAMO qualifiers should get into MIT. Maybe not CalTech, because CalTech only takes 200. But MIT's class of 1000 should have room for the roughly 100 USAMO qualifiers that graduate each year. (About 160 qualify each year, but I'm assuming that at least some of them are underclassmen.) If the person gets a GPA with only a couple of "B's" and the rest "A'"s, then admission should be automatic.</p>

<p>Those that disagree with me probably have no idea what USAMO is or what it means.</p>

<p>I've actually heard that usamo is a huge boost at caltech and comes close to guaranteeing admission. Not sure if this is true though. One that's for sure is that the usamo qualifiers i know are math geniuses, as in acing calc bc in 8th or 9th grade. Qualifying for usamo shows you can really think logically and outside the box, better than almost anyone. Isn't this invaluable to engineers?</p>

<p>USAMO vs. RSI:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=143757%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=143757&lt;/a>
GracieLegend speaks of the flaws of USAMO in anecdotal terms. Again, MANY who don't get into USAMO are still very smart, even smarter than the USAMO qualifiers, because again, (a) not everyone invests the same amount of effort/care into preparing for the USAMO, and (b) people don't score consistently on the AMC/AIME year after year.</p>

<p>"I've actually heard that usamo is a huge boost at caltech and comes close to guaranteeing admission. Not sure if this is true though. One that's for sure is that the usamo qualifiers i know are math geniuses, as in acing calc bc in 8th or 9th grade. Qualifying for usamo shows you can really think logically and outside the box, better than almost anyone. Isn't this invaluable to engineers?"</p>

<p>Not true. Caltech does reject USAMO qualifiers. Like simfish said, a lot of these math contests have to do with growing up in a culture that emphasizes mathematical pursuits. In a weird way, qualifying for the USAMO is a lot like doing well on the SAT.</p>

<p>I know this Chinese kid who was both a USAMO and US Physics Semis qualifier, but was rejected from both Caltech and MIT. His SAT score was like a 2000, and it was clear that he was only good at contest math because of the intensive training he received in China.</p>

<p>I don't know if you're speaking of "geniuses" in absolute terms, but I can definitely tell you that to people who are a part of some problem solving culture, USAMO qualifiers are a dime a dozen. Also, anyone who's practised extensively for the AMC series contests will know that hard work is oftentimes, sufficient enough for success in USAMO qualification. I don't know what you mean by this "thinking logically and outside the box" stuff, but I really don't think USAMO qualification is indicative of "genius" at all. A good year of solid prep, often does the trick.</p>

<p>The most successful students from my school haven't been USAMO qualifiers. Not to say the USAMO qualifiers here arn't good students, but last year's USAMO qualifier (now at CMU), and this year's 2 new USAMO qualifiers are frankly very good at math but don't have much to their names in other respects. In the case of the latter 2 USAMOers still at my high school, they are like the kid from Big Brother's story: recently-immigrated Chinese students who do well because of their upbringing in China, but who will probably not demonstrate very high proficiency with CR or W on the SATs.</p>

<p>Just wanted to say a few things on this topic:</p>

<p>MIT has been shifting its admissions process for serveral reasons.</p>

<pre><code> MIT used to be incredibly focused on high ranking, SAT scores, etc and didn't seem so "subjective." After a while, MIT noticed that its pool of students were changing. Because MIT was admitting high SAT scores and high gpa students, their pool wasn't nessecarily the "best."
In fact, their pools of students were found to be less innovative, and less creative than it used to be. Why? These students spent too much time worrying about GPA and high SAT scores that they became rigid learners who merely regurgitated information rather than being creative and innovative.
So, MIT changed its admissions process. They valued interesting individuals who showed creativity and innovation. So far, its been working. The pools of students at MIT today show incredible creativity and innovation, a consequence of diversity. MIT realized that the people with the highest scores and GPA weren't the best indicators of future success.
</code></pre>

<p>^
You're a high school senior. How could you possibly know this? Previous MIT classes weren't creative according to who? </p>

<p>Excelling in class does not indicate a lack of creativity...And having a quirky, "interesting" personality doesn't indicate any abundance of creativity. </p>

<p>MIT never cared about the numbers just for numbers-sake. They looked for the student with the A+s because that student is the one that has such passion that they try to go above and beyond what is presented in class. But the thing is, if this person is doing this, then they are pretty likely to ace all of them and end up as valedictorian or salutatorian. Unless there is some serious family crisis, I wonder why someone would get less than an "A" in a high school math or science class.</p>

<p>And one more thing--I doubt anyone in the history of MIT ever prepped more than 5 minutes for the Math part of the SAT.</p>

<p>"I doubt anyone in the history of MIT ever prepped more than 5 minutes for the Math part of the SAT."</p>

<p>what</p>

<p>I somehow doubt the validity of that statement. Not everyone at MIT is super laid back and naturally intelligent. I'm sure many got into because of their Work Ethic, Interest etc.</p>

<p>at least cockiness never got anyone too far in life.</p>