MIT Admissions Have Become A Complete Joke

<p>Look, I agree many models may work. But it's easy to see that in each one, prestige is meaningless when you're trying to decide the underlying quality of the education (as opposed to the value of the signal).</p>

<p>Take the Podolny story. Prestige there is just this membership which is hard to get and valuable by virtue of that alone. The whole point of these models is that they assume that there is nothing intrinsically better about the prestigious place and try to explain it purely as a coordination phenomenon. And all of them succeed from different angles.</p>

<p>So the market is only measuring a coin flip -- where people decided to coordinate. It is quite possible in each of these models that another place would give you a better education, and people are still herding on the inferior prestigious place because of the signaling value.</p>

<p>Obviously the signal must be very valuable -- nobody's arguing against that. I'm just saying, the prestige ranking here is not measuring quality of the education. In the most idealized free market nut world, it's measuring the net present value of the signal PLUS the education, and if you don't care about status, it will often be true that the better education (in an intellectual sense) is to be found at the less prestigious place.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Don't get me wrong, Ben. I sympathize with your position. I think MIT and Caltech deserve more recognition and status relative to Harvard. I think that society should place greater value on rigorous technical education and less on social networking, persuasion, and politics. But what can I say? That's just not the way the world is. We have to deal with the world the way it is, not the way we might like it to be.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We have a lot of common ground, I'm just a little more optimistic. Naive people might think that the herding on Harvard really does reflect some underlying quality. By explaining that it is a coordination effect probably quite disjoint from real merit (defined in the technical improving-your-mind sense), people might make better choices for themselves. </p>

<p>Now, if in the end all people want is prestige, then you get nowhere. But I'm a little more hopeful about people.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Take the Podolny story. Prestige there is just this membership which is hard to get and valuable by virtue of that alone. The whole point of these models is that they assume that there is nothing intrinsically better about the prestigious place and try to explain it purely as a coordination phenomenon. And all of them succeed from different angles.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Obviously the signal must be very valuable -- nobody's arguing against that. I'm just saying, the prestige ranking here is not measuring quality of the education. In the most idealized free market nut world, it's measuring the net present value of the signal PLUS the education, and if you don't care about status, it will often be true that the better education (in an intellectual sense) is to be found at the less prestigious place.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See, I'm not even entirely sure about that. One of my greatest criticisms of MIT (and by extension, Caltech) is that it often times doesn't prepare students properly for the way the world really works - namely teaching students the communications, social networking skills, leadership, and politicking that go a very long way towards determining success in the real world. Like I said before, like it or not, we live in a world where the best ideas don't always win out - rather the ideas that win out tend to be the ones that are properly packaged and marketed. Or, put more bluntly, you can be by far the most technically qualified candidate, and * still * lose out on a job offer or a promotion anyway to somebody who is less technically strong but more socially polished. </p>

<p>I have heard it numerous times that the philosophy of MIT is that it doesn't need to market itself and therefore the students don't need to learn how to market themselves, because quality wil inevitably "out" itself. But this is simply false, or alternatively, the definition of quality needs to be carefully delineated. Quality means not just having the best technical ability, but also means having the ability to remain consonant with the organizational forces at play. For example, in your previous case of VHS vs. Beta, it has been asserted (rather questionably in my opinion) that Beta has better "quality" as measured by higher resolution and less crosstalk, what really mattered was ultimately the easier manufacturing/engineering design of VHS which gave large-scale manufacturers, especially powerhouses such as Matsu****a, a strong incentive to pick VHS. I would argue that simpler manufacturability(which ultimately led to lower prices and greater product variety and availability due to the large number of vendors) is at least as important a part of overall 'quality' of a technical design as is picture quality. </p>

<p>(I say 'questionably' because Cusumano and others have shown that whatever picture quality advantages Beta had were quickly matched by VHS improvements i.e. VHS-HQ and SuperVHS, and that whatever fidelity advantages Beta had were swamped by the fact that recorded over-the-air broadcasts were going to be relatively low quality anyway due to simple transmission interference - hence in practice, beta's picture quality advantage was small at best. It should also be noted that Betamax did in fact actually "win" within a particular market - as the related Betacam technology dominated the professional studio industry itself and actually eliminated the VHS-derived professional standards - because that market is one where picture quality really truly mattered and where customers were less sensitive to price and availability issues, because these customers would seek out the products wherever they are, and pay whatever price, in order to get high picture quality. Hence, you have a case of dual markets where each market's customers prioritize the product features that they consider important, VHS dominating the consumer markets, and Betamax derivatives dominating the professional markets} </p>

<p>
[quote]
We have a lot of common ground, I'm just a little more optimistic. Naive people might think that the herding on Harvard really does reflect some underlying quality. By explaining that it is a coordination effect probably quite disjoint from real merit (defined in the technical improving-your-mind sense), people might make better choices for themselves.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But again, like I said, I don't think the problem is really with univeristies. The problem is that * the world * does not value rigorous technical knowledge as much as it probably should, but instead places great value on social skills and politicking. The fact that Harvard is considered to be more prestigious than MIT, or that any of HYPS is considered more prestigious than Caltech is a simple reflection of this fact of life. The valuation of Harvard as a signal and as an educational institution is just a simple reflection of what society as a whole chooses to value.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>I would say there's a good reason the world values social skills/politicking more than technical skill. Even in fields of technical skill, social skill often has far more impact than it should. Graduate school and academia in general is horrifically political*. In a perfect world, funding and grants and space and resources would be allotted purely on intellectual merit, but they're not. I can see why having students capable of politicking would definitely be beneficial for an institution in the long run. That is to say, it makes perfect sense why an institute would value such skills... </p>

<p>This is not to imply that this is the way things <em>should</em> be, but every institute does have it's own interests in mind. Every student is an investment...</p>

<p>*I am not a graduate student, and this is simply filtered from my friends who are.</p>

<p>sakky -- okay. All I'm saying is that if someone, for her own reasons, wants to care only about technical ability and not about politics, then it may well be that Harvard is not the best place. Even if that hurts this person in the long run with "the world". For this purpose, understanding the way prestige influences matriculation decisions -- and obscures true judgment of technical education quality -- is crucial.</p>

<p>I hope you don't want to tell individuals what they "should" and "shouldn't" care about in planning their lives, based on what "the world" values. That would be a very unscientific paternalism. Simply put, people have the right to value many important things that aren't measured in "prestige" units, and you're getting dangerously close to telling people there's only one right thing to care about.</p>

<p>Anyway, I think your long post is kind of off topic. You admit that the most prestigious place doesn't have the best technical or intellectual education and then argue that this is not what "really matters" because politics can matter more for gettng your ideas implemented. But I'm not really interested in arguing about what "matters", just the facts. People can make their own value judgments.</p>

<p>I'm sympathetic to the idea that the market and mass opinion can make mistakes, but the herding papers cited (a) don't deliver the result that herding is "often" on the wrong choice and (b) don't apply well to the stiuation at issue.
re (a), the papers deliver a probability of herding on the wrong choice as a function of the informativeness of the signals and of the accuracy of the prior beliefs: if the priors are right, inefficient herding is unlikely. So to make a statement about the probability that we would see ineffficient herding requires a specification of the accuracy of the priors. Re (b), the models describe a stiuation in which one agent chooses at a time, and all agents would have the same preferences if they were fully informed. In that model it is not possibelt o have a steady state where 60% choose A and 40% choose B. With a lot of agents making each choice, there will be more information available, and I'd guess that inefficient herding should occur for fewer parameter values. Which isn't to say that Harvard's prestige is warranted; this seems to be an empirical question.</p>

<p>
[quote]
sakky -- okay. All I'm saying is that if someone, for her own reasons, wants to care only about technical ability and not about politics, then it may well be that Harvard is not the best place. Even if that hurts this person in the long run with "the world". For this purpose, understanding the way prestige influences matriculation decisions -- and obscures true judgment of technical education quality -- is crucial.</p>

<p>I hope you don't want to tell individuals what they "should" and "shouldn't" care about in planning their lives, based on what "the world" values. That would be a very unscientific paternalism. Simply put, people have the right to value many important things that aren't measured in "prestige" units, and you're getting dangerously close to telling people there's only one right thing to care about.</p>

<p>Anyway, I think your long post is kind of off topic. You admit that the most prestigious place doesn't have the best technical or intellectual education and then argue that this is not what "really matters" because politics can matter more for gettng your ideas implemented. But I'm not really interested in arguing about what "matters", just the facts. People can make their own value judgments.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look, I'm not telling anybody what to do. Obviously everybody is free to live their lives the way they wish. </p>

<p>What I am saying is that turning down a school like Harvard has potential future career costs, in terms of networking and politicking. If you are willing to assume those costs, more power to you. But nobody should fool themselves into thinking that there aren't any costs at all. </p>

<p>Sometimes you have to do things you don't really like and don't really agree with in order to get to accomplish the things you want more easily. That's life. Now, if you decide that you're not going to do those things, that's fine, but just realize that your goals may be harder to achieve.</p>

<p>Aedar -- thus it goes with the theoretical literature, as you know better than I. You're unlikely to find a model which fits exactly, but I think many of the herding analyses would extend (with work) if you increased the size of the groups who make the successive choices. If the t=0 group gets tricked by an signal that's far off the mark (just due to a stochastic misfortune), it might be quite rational for all successive groups to follow the wrong herd. Depending on the parameters, this might happen rarely or often.</p>

<p>As for correct priors, I think it would take a lot of twisting to assume anything other than that priors are very diffuse. The whole point of the discussion is to see whether prestige can usefully inform naifs. If almost everyone has pretty good prior information to begin with, then the point is kind of moot. </p>

<p>I agree completely that whether Harvard's prestige is warranted is an empirical question, but how to test it, I don't know. The Dale/Krueger is a start.</p>

<p>sakky -- now we're getting somewhere. Caltech/MIT offer a more serious technical education (good #1), on average, and Harvard offers more political connections and skill in politics (good #2), on average. Surely the ordering on these goods isn't lexicographic. For different people, it's optimal to load up on different quantities of these goods. And it might be optimal for certain people, given their tastes and goals, to turn down the most prestigious place.</p>

<p>Now that the discussion isn't monofactorial, I'm very liberal about what is best for most people or for a given person. That's an empirical (and very personal!) question.</p>

<p>But I would like to add that my emphasis on the arbitrariness of the herding location isn't totally abstract. It's probably too much to hope for with big groups like incoming undergraduate classes, but in smaller groups of people can dump the "prestigious" place and make it something else. In the 1990's, evidently, the best econ grad students stopped coordinating on MIT and started coordinating somewhat on Harvard. (See Michael Steinberger, "Harvard Is Seen Gaining In Economics Game; Top Graduates No Longer Favor M.I.T.", New York Times, December 27, 2001. <a href="http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F60D13FC3B550C748EDDAB0994D9404482%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://select.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F60D13FC3B550C748EDDAB0994D9404482&lt;/a>. Free with a university email address!) Since the only good thing about the most prestigious place is that most of the best people are there, if they just choose to go elsewhere, suddenly the prestige slowly slips away. It's things like this that limit my reverence for this all-important (at least on CC!) concept.</p>

<p>P.S. I realize the final example I give is kind of funny, given the overall discussion. But in the 70's and 80's, it apparently wasn't even a question -- virtually nobody picked Harvard over MIT.</p>

<p>aw5k-</p>

<p>actually thats kind of interesting. I applied to internships for the first time and sometimes thats how they pick their people- interviews with case questions and brain teasers and stuff. Sometimes I have a real problem with that method. Especially the brain teasers, the questions designed to trick you somehow and because clearly, if you're not "with it" enough to realize that they changed one word on you from the last question, you're not cut out to be a good computer programmer. People come in with different levels of preparation, this method strongly favors those who have a lot of experience with interviews and I don't think those people are necessarily the best thinkers or the best doers.</p>

<p>But all that aside you know they are private companies they can do whatever they want and also they want people who from the moment they are hired will do the best job they can so it is understandable. Colleges, though, I think have a different goal. They want students who will be good learners, not necessarily the kids who went to the most rigorous high school and had high levels of academic preparation before they even applied to college. You say this will eliminate the "unfairness" but I feel it exacerbates it tremendously. It will just increase the achievement gap between rich kids and poor kids. Those who can afford it will hire tutors for that kind of interview training and those who are relegated to poor publics will naturally perform poorly by comparison. It eliminates the whole concept of "context" from the admissions process.</p>

<p>I maen, for the record, I don't think I would have ever gotten into MIT under that kind of policy. I just wasn't trained that well by my high school in that regard. After all, thats why I wanted to go to college here.</p>

<p>
[quote]
sakky -- now we're getting somewhere. Caltech/MIT offer a more serious technical education (good #1), on average, and Harvard offers more political connections and skill in politics (good #2), on average. Surely the ordering on these goods isn't lexicographic. For different people, it's optimal to load up on different quantities of these goods. And it might be optimal for certain people, given their tastes and goals, to turn down the most prestigious place.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, what I would argue is that more people would probably be more optimally served by attending one type of school, followed by another. For example, if you've gone to MIT or Caltech for undergrad, then you should go to HYPS for grad school, and vice versa. That way, you would get the best of both worlds. </p>

<p>{But of course most people will never have that option. So if that's the case, then the safe thing for you to do is to choose whichever good is more valuable at the time you get to make the choice, because you won't know if you will get another such choice later on down the road. In fact, this gets back to something I've been saying to you before. You turned down Harvard for Caltech for undergrad, and you did well. Good for you. But what if you had not done well at Caltech? In that case, I would strongly suspect that you would have liked to have gone back in time and chosen Harvard, as it ist the safe choice.} </p>

<p>Secondly, you raise the issue of geting a serious technical education at Caltech/MIT. However, speaking of MIT, like I said before, MIT is changing its focus. Consonant with spirit of the Steinberger NYTimes article, MIT has been raiding scholars from numerous other top universities in building up its own political science department. That goes a long way towards explaining why that department has been able to attain a #10 ranking in just 40 years of existence, a rather impressive accomplishment when you consider that MIT has to compete against many far older poli-sci departments. I believe that it is the youngest elite (as in top 15-20) poli-sci department in the country. Similarly, you know see many of the top poli-sci graduate candidates turning down far older schools to come to MIT. MIT still does not compete toe-to-toe with Harvard or Stanford for the top poli-sci grad students, but the gap has been significantly narrowed. </p>

<p>Similarly, you can see the same sorts of changes at the MIT Sloan School. It wasn't that long ago when basically the only thing that Sloan did well was industrial/technical/operations management - or what was generally deemed 'management science'. The Sloan School then went through a transformation in adding broader aspects of business administration, especially in culture, leadership, organizational behavior, social psychology, and the like such that now Sloan is a fully-fledged and broadly based business school that now attracts numerous students who are more interested in those 'softer', non-technical aspects of management. For example, some of the recent Sloan PhD's who do not specialize in technical subjects but rather have specialized in sociology, leadership, international business, or psychology have been placed at top B-schools like Wharton and HBS. </p>

<p>But this gets back to what I was saying before - do you want MIT to change? Specifically, do you want MIT to enter those less technical fields, like political science or management culture/sociology/psychology? If the answer is 'yes', then I think that inevitably means changing your admissions process to place less emphasis on technical ability and more emphasis on social skills and social knowledge. After all, I would argue that most of the best political scientists are not geniuses at math. Many of the world's best business students, either future practitioners or fuure business academics, are not geniuses at math. MIT is never going to change to become a broader-based university if it solely emphasizes technical acumen in its admittees.</p>

<p>Now, of course, one could argue that MIT shouldn't even be trying to become a broader-based university at all. But if that's the case, then you have to believe that many of the initiatives that MIT has started in the last few decades were ill-advised. For example, it would mean tha MIT should not have started a fully-fledged poli-sci program. It should not have built a strong linguistics and philosophy department. The Sloan School should have remained a technical/operations management boutique school. It should not have launched the Media Lab. In other words, most of the new initiatives that have happened East of Ames Street in the last 50 years should not have happened.</p>

<p>I think there are lots of places basically similar to Harvard (e.g. Princeton, Stanford, Yale, and countless others) in trying to cover everything and give a liberal arts education to good students who fall in all areas in terms of interests.</p>

<p>There are very few places who have historically set as their goal to educate the science and math geniuses of tomorrow in a focused environment with very high core standards for everyone. I definitely will not argue with you about whether that's good-- but my personal belief is that it's valuable to have at least a few. The fact that MIT is flaking out and leaving Caltech to be the only such place makes me sad.</p>

<p>FLAKE FLAKE FLAKE I don't think MIT will ever be BAD at Science and Math. Or even NOT-THE-BEST at science + math. Like, ever.</p>

<p>rawrrrrr. i would attack more but your whole school would crumbe into thousands of little flakes and i am too nice.</p>

<p>Don't worry if you work hard you can avoid the liberal arts education at MIT. Remember economics counts as a HASS course, it is a social science. I've written a total of three papers in 2 years at MIT.</p>

<p>I've written 7 papers this semester!</p>

<p>seeeeeeeeeeeee! flaky.</p>

<p>"There are very few places who have historically set as their goal to educate the science and math geniuses of tomorrow in a focused environment with very high core standards for everyone. I definitely will not argue with you about whether that's good-- but my personal belief is that it's valuable to have at least a few. The fact that MIT is flaking out and leaving Caltech to be the only such place makes me sad."</p>

<p>True, but only on the national level. Majors at schools outside the U.S. (the typical example being Cambridge, of course) are usually very focused on a specific area of study, despite the fact that the school may be strong in both humanities and science.</p>

<p>And what's wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. And if MIT wants to expand to be more focused on political science and humanities, so be it, as long as the education of the student of science isn't harmed. But with the way MIT is going, this doesn't seem to be possible, and certainly with the modern admissions process at MIT, students of math and science who are not the best at humanities are certainly discriminated against.</p>

<p>MIT seems to have inherited the poor qualities of our high school public educational system. At an attempt at a more "well-rounded", "generally educated" student body, humanities and social science courses are forced upon high school students. MIT already has established policies that accomplish this task of making its students more educated in the humanities, but it seems that, with the MIT administration, the policies will become more oppressive as time progresses. Hell, I bet you that in the next 20 years, MIT will make community service a graduation requirement, like many of our public schools have done already (mine included).</p>

<p>Caltech has similar problems, though, although certainly not to the extent of MIT. Chem 3a, for example, sounds like a pretty oppressive and unnecessary course, and it seems to be stuck into the core curriculum for no reason at all. Core science curriculum should be dealt with very carefully, and I think the Caltech administration has not done a good job in this. Instead of forcing students to be more "well-rounded" in the humanities, the Caltech administration is imposing "well-roundedness" pertaining to general science, which is just as silly. Say you're studying to be a theoretical physicist. Now, core math courses and core physics courses are common sense, and probably a core chemistry course or two wouldn't hurt. But why biology? Why Chem 3a? Just to have more useless information that you'll never use so that you'll be more well-rounded in the sciences? Bullcrap.</p>

<p>The good thing about Caltech, though, is that there's hardly any chance that the conditions will get worse. Caltech's not going to implement a policy that requires students to take Geology just because Caltech is a very good school for Geology. MIT, on the other hand, would without a doubt create a (probably small) political sciences humanity requirement if MIT suddenly became the #1 school in the nation in politics, using the excuse that "we want our students to have an education that extends as far as possible". A mile wide, an inch thick. Completely useless.</p>

<p>"That government is best which governs least." MIT could improve a bunch and Caltech could improve a little in this aspect. Now, why don't we have more schools in the United States like Cambridge where students can study whatever they want without all this "well-roundedness" bullcrap?</p>

<p>The difference between American univs and Cambridge (and all the other European universities like Oxford, Sorbonne, ETH Zurich, etc) is that students at Cambridge have a liberal arts background prior to matriculation: Everyone who wants to enroll has to sit and pass the national examinations (A-Levels, Abitur, Matura, etc.).
In order to pass these examinations students have to pursue a high school with a broad curriculum. Even the prospective Cambridge Physics major has had 4 years of history and at least one foreign language in high school, even the prospective Oxford "Comparative Literature" major has had Calculus in high school.</p>

<p>Therefore, I think it's reasonable that American colleges try to give teach their students a liberal arts background, because education is not an apprenticeship for a specific profession; education is, too, about teaching students how to think critically and how to use their skills in a variety of fields.</p>

<p>"Even the prospective Cambridge Physics major has had 4 years of history and at least one foreign language in high school, even the prospective Oxford "Comparative Literature" major has had Calculus in high school."</p>

<p>How is this any different from American high schools? The typical English major (who ends up going to a "prestigious" university) takes AP Calculus AB, at least, by their senior year in high school. Also, most of the people majoring in science that I know have taken AP classes in history and English and received 5s on the examinations. Most American public school systems require 8 semesters of English, 4 semesters of social sciences, 6 semesters of science, and 6 or 8 semesters of math to graduate. Also, I think they're making a policy in some high schools where you have to have at least 2 years of foreign language as well.</p>

<p>"Therefore, I think it's reasonable that American colleges try to give teach their students a liberal arts background, because education is not an apprenticeship for a specific profession; education is, too, about teaching students how to think critically and how to use their skills in a variety of fields."</p>

<p>The scientist who is able to get into MIT or Caltech should be able to think critically and argue logically in any field. It shouldn't take training. This is particularly because the logic behind science and humanities is very similar.</p>