MIT Admissions Have Become A Complete Joke

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<p>I've seen the match criteria posted and blogged upon. The problem I have with them is that they're mostly unquantifiable, and I've never seen a blog post or other explanatory medium about how exactly MIT admissions connects the information they receive in an application to these criteria. It just seems like voodoo at this point. (If there is such a blog entry that I've overlooked, I'd love to read it.)</p>

<p>Also, your assumption that my stress exists because of standardized tests is rather insulting and unjustified. I never retook any SATs, and got them all over with in my junior year. (2350, 730mathII, 790chem, and yes, I know that the numbers matter not at all, but I have no reason to stress about them.)</p>

<p>My stress is caused by having to wait for the better part of a year to find out if I get into the school I've been dreaming about going to since sixth grade, especially when I applied early specifically to avoid that happening. Now I'm trying to get excited about another school, putting my deposit in and all of that, while the knowledge still lurks that come May I'm going to have to go through the entire decision process once again. I think I'm justified in feeling jerked around by the admissions office.</p>

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The measure for academic success for decades has been a person's intelligence quotient, or IQ. But new research published in the journal Child Development says that a thought process called "executive functioning," which governs the ability to reason and mentally focus, also plays a critical role in learning, especially when it comes to math skills...</p>

<p>In this study 141 healthy children between the ages of three and five years took a battery of psychological tests that measured their IQs and executive functioning. Researchers found that a child whose IQ and executive functioning were both above average was three times more likely to succeed in math than a kid who simply had a high IQ.</p>

<p>"[The fact] that executive function, even in children this young, is significantly related to early math performance suggests that if we can improve executive function, we can improve their academic performance," says Adele Diamond, professor of developmental cognitive neuroscience at the University of British Columbia.

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<p>The question is - how does this research apply to the ability to succeed at MIT? (or to succeed in the most theoretical fields?) The issue here is that we need to control (a bit) for intelligence. Now, most students, granted, are fairly weak in math (they struggle with grade school math courses, and often must ask for help - courses we usually can breeze through without much effort. Most of them are pretty much through with math once they reach calculus - that is, if they reach it). The research cited above is based on such students.</p>

<p>Another question is, can the same research apply to those of higher IQs, who may think and reason differently? Perhaps they have alternative strategies of seeking a solution to the problem? Perhaps they find looking for help easier? But as we get up to the higher IQs - it's possible that IQ may be a stronger control for the ability to do theoretical math than other factors (we need a control group again, but theoretical math may be out-of-reach for many MIT and even Caltech students - who struggle over their problems sets and must frequently get help, whereas stronger students in the same pool can do the problem sets with not much help). Most people who get into Caltech/MIT are probably at the 99th percentile of math ability, and the difference between 99.9th and 99.5th is far huger than that between 60th and 70th percentiles. The bell curve distribution of IQ does a good job of quantifying this - but it may still be that the difference in ability of 130 and 135 (in math) may be larger than that between 80 and 85 (though at such high IQs, IQ becomes a fairly poor indicator of math ability). I generally don't think that IQ means much at higher IQs, but there may be another test that correlates more with mathematical ability than with IQ.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, <a href="http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/02/25/the-cult-of-genius/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/02/25/the-cult-of-genius/&lt;/a> is an interesting take on this - even non-geniuses can handle the material. They won't be Nobel laureates, but at least they can still do a good job at research. And as for how this relates to MIT, MIT will still manage to admit a number of very-talented students, while admitting a larger number of people who aren't that smart, but who can still succeed in research/other high-cognitive ability occupations.</p>

<p>Now, I'm not a Caltech student, but I read the Caltech boards, and based on what I've gathered from them, many students initially want to major in math or physics (50% IIRC), but the Caltech curriculum shows them that math/physics may not be their forte (often due to their struggles with the problem sets).</p>

<p>Of course, MIT and Caltech are not purely focused on theoretical math - and most of their respective applicant pools do well in their own non-math fields. MIT's admissions are catered towards "is the applicant good enough to succeed in MIT core?" And if so, intelligence/SAT scores/etc really don't matter beyond that (for most applicants). Nonetheless, we do know that some very high level students are rejected or waitlisted (ones who may get Axlines at Caltech). What do we make out of that? The problem, again, is that it's difficult to compare how well MIT does on competitions like the Putnam were such students accepted, with how well it would do in such competitions were they not accepted. Of course, the Putnam isn't the best indicator of how good MIT students are (since school performance on the Putnam is based on the top few scores, and MIT can still do well on it even if it accepts all at the top in terms of USAMO/ISEF/USA(X)O, rejects some near the top, and admits URMs below them). Whatever, MIT has its own mission, and somehow, such mission has changed from what it was before.</p>

<p>The other issue, of course, is that executive functioning/work ethic is very difficult to quantify in high school students. Teacher recommendations are the only way to quantify this characteristic in HS students. And frankly speaking - students who do the minimum to "A" a class may still have a very strong work ethic - they just may be using that work ethic towards self-study, rather than to do more busywork in a class which they find too easy. Even then, those with less self-control could potentially be more creative (in that they don't filter out stimuli that could provide insights to their work),and yet have enough self-control to succeed in school (even if they don't get straight A's).</p>

<p>Of course there are other issues as well - work ethic may be partially contingent on environmental circumstances. But the psychological tests do seem to show that conscientiousness (in most people) seem to be relatively consistent in a person through time.</p>

<h2>"Now, I'm not a Caltech student, but I read the Caltech boards, and based on what I've gathered from them, many students initially want to major in math or physics (50% IIRC), but the Caltech curriculum shows them that math/physics may not be their forte (often due to their struggles with the problem sets)."</h2>

<p>I doubt this...When I was at MIT a lot of people were more interested in physics than their major but didn't major in it because they felt it was impractical as a career. </p>

<p>If you struggle in mechanics and E & M (the two physics requirements), then you won't survive electrical engineering & Computer Science. Because EECS was the major of choice by 60% of the undergrads at the time I went there, I would say that you can conclude that they didn't choose it because of trouble in E & M. It's far more common for someone to drop out of engineering into pure science because engineering is so much more of a grind. </p>

<p>Also, a lot of people used not study at all in basic physics because it was pass/no record the first year and almost everybody passed anyway. </p>

<p>Maybe CalTech is a little different because they require a couple of extra physics classes, but frankly I thought quantum mechanics was no big deal compared to engineering.</p>

<p>Disclosure: I'm a junior physics major at Caltech.</p>

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It is definitely true that a large fraction of students entering Caltech expect to major in math/physics (especially physics), and a large fraction of those students will end up in other majors. A few reasons for this might be: the conceptual difficulty of physics/math curriculum, worried about post-graduation opportunities, or exposure to other interesting fields at Caltech.</p>

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I'm curious, to what level of quantum mechanics and what part of engineering are you referring?</p>

<p>I'm a freshman in EE at Caltech. I think cghen really hit the nail on the head in describing some of the differences between math/physics and engineering majors here. </p>

<p>That being said, I think that the switch from math/physics for many students isn't just the conceptual hardness that cghen spoke of but is also that many students don't really understand what college math is like. For example, I loved calculus in high school. Then I took Math 1a at Caltech, which I hated. Although I never intended to be a math major, if I was that would have ended it for me--although I still love the problem solving based math (we have it here under our applied math major) I can't stand the proof-based approach that "real" math takes. After writing this I realize it's very close to what cghen is saying, although I'm attempting to impart that even some people who are capable of doing the work just don't enjoy it.</p>

<p>Other things can be similar; students who had a practical education in high school may not realize how analytical the pure sciences can be... etc and end up switching to a more practical field to pursue what they enjoy. </p>

<p>Finally, I've never heard of anyone here dropping engineering for a pure science. I've heard of people dropping a hard engineering for an easier one, though--Caltech's ChemE and EE programs are slightly notorious for their difficulty level (not so much conceptually, but in the enormous amount of work required).</p>

<p>Quote:
Originally Posted by collegealum314
Maybe CalTech is a little different because they require a couple of extra physics classes, but frankly I thought quantum mechanics was no big deal compared to engineering. </p>

<h2>I'm curious, to what level of quantum mechanics and what part of engineering are you referring?</h2>

<p>Just one semester of quantum, although it was quantum physics for chem majors so maybe it was watered down...however, I also took abstract algebra (also called group theory) which is supposed to be a hard class to understand.</p>

<p>I majored in electrical engineering and computer science, although I did take some core classes in Chem E too. One difference between engineering and pure science is that it seemed in engineering you have to be really on-the-ball and keep up with class; in pure science and theoretical mathematics you can generally derive everything from scratch.
I remember in fluid mechanics they would give you equations to apply which came out of nowhere; there was no way to derive them.</p>

<p>^ I think that's a fair assessment.</p>

<p>^Yep, ChemE fluid mechanics has crazy equations. For the first month or so I was convinced that there was nothing else to discover in that field because every two seconds they would say "and Nikuradse derived this equation as well when the Reynolds number was above 2000, we won't derive it though." Literally 10 equations about flows all of which were never derived in either class or the text. Amazing. And Nikuradse made every equation too.</p>

<p>My question is, are high school students really the best judge of talent of high school students? One poster here said that none of the kids who got accepted to MIT from his/her school could hold a candle to the ones rejected from his/her school -- that the accepted kids were never described as the smartest.</p>

<p>Your point?</p>

<p>Maybe they showed something to MIT that they don't show to their fellow students. Maybe you're a bad judge. Maybe most of their potential is inside of them, whereas "the smartest kids" leave it on the surface. Maybe their potential runs deeper. You can't know. Einstein and John Nash are two examples of people that you would've thought were nothing compared to "the smartest kids" if you'd known them when they were young.</p>

<p>MIT-bashing threads on the MIT forum... conflict, yum.</p>

<p>MIT does kind of brainwash people into thinking their admissions process is super-great, etc, etc, but of course it can never really be fair. Yes, URMs are favored...because of their perspectives. If you don't think that's right, then that's a pretty clear indication that you yourself aren't a good fit at MIT. Which I think is really valuable...even if their admissions process is unfair, it at least is open and clear enough that you get a very good feel of the school itself. Their admissions people are so nice, too - so though they might not be the epitome of fairness, at least they're cool!</p>

<p>My question is, are high school students really the best judge of talent of high school students? One poster here said that none of the kids who got accepted to MIT from his/her school could hold a candle to the ones rejected from his/her school -- that the accepted kids were never described as the smartest.</p>

<p>Your point?</p>

<h2>Maybe they showed something to MIT that they don't show to their fellow students. Maybe you're a bad judge. Maybe most of their potential is inside of them, whereas "the smartest kids" leave it on the surface. Maybe their potential runs deeper. You can't know. Einstein and John Nash are two examples of people that you would've thought were nothing compared to "the smartest kids" if you'd known them when they were young.</h2>

<p>if someone with enormous potential does not use it for whatever reason, then they won't be crushed if they don't get in an ivy...however, if someone with enormous potential fully taps their potential and has everything you could imagine (perfect grades, test scores, recs, national awards), that person could be devastated. </p>

<p>In the bio of a recent Nobel Laureate in physics, he tells the story of how he would really focus on solving problems he was interested in and forgot about some of his classes. As a consequence, he got spotty grades in high school and was rejected by every ivy. (He went to Rochester.) His brother, on the other hand, got the highest average in the history of his high school.</p>

<p>When at Rochester, he really started tapping his potential academically and consequently got into a top 5 grad school in physics (Berkeley,) and the rest is history. The point is that this guy really wasn't that disappointed when he didn't get into his top choices for undergrad because he really wasn't trying. If he had exerted himself to turn in a perfect performance in school like his brother and then got shut out of the top ivies, he may have been devastated. This disappointment could conceivably make it less likely to exert himself in college when it really counted.</p>

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In the bio of a recent Nobel Laureate in physics, he tells the story of how he would really focus on solving problems he was interested in and forgot about some of his classes. As a consequence, he got spotty grades in high school and was rejected by every ivy. (He went to Rochester.) His brother, on the other hand, got the highest average in the history of his high school.

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<p>Yay, I love Steven Chu! :D</p>

<p>As an alum I was not impressed with the picture of MIT portrayed at their information sessions or much of the admissions material, it was all 'gee whiz' fun and don't worry about your SATs. I felt it did not represent the rigor of the experience or what is special about being someone for whom the rigor is at the heart of the 'right' college experience. In balance I support Ms. Jones' articulated vision and concerns, but I feel it is too little, too late. Unless parents of 5th and 6th graders start getting the message then it is not relevant.</p>

<p>As for the 'change' in admissions, I very distinctly remember similar complaints from alums 30+years ago when I was a freshperson. I took it personally since the suggestion was that the admissions of more and more women was a reflection of 'changing priorities.' Some things never change.</p>

<p>I really like your point-people always will be complaining about the admissions process. I think it has a little to do with insecurity, but not fully. Reading this thread, I try not to take it personally. I have been accepted to 5 out of 6 schools to which I applied. Are admissions "a complete joke" at every one of them now?</p>

<p>It's interesting seeing threads like this, people say all the time how admissions are a crapshoot and such. When my dad was a freshman at MIT he nearly flunked out, cause in high school he was the ****: captain of track team, salutatorian, all that bull. When he got to MIT he just started taking it like high school all over again except it was a hell of a lot harder.</p>

<p>The moral of the story is when he went to talk to the academic and admissions counselors about whether his admittance was a mistake and whether he should be at MIT or not they said the following: We don't make mistakes, you are here because you deserve to be.</p>

<p>He graduated with honors and was accepted for their masters program, but couldn't afford it so took Stanford's acceptance on Lockheed Martin's tab.</p>

<p>If you got in, Lockheed saw you as a fit for them. If you didn't just read the rejection letter, it's no judgement on you as a person, it's just who they could and couldn't take, and they took those that fit the school best.</p>

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Actually, the very best top math superstars are NOT at MIT, there are more Putham math winners from MIT simply bacause there are more math students from MIT ( MIT math is about 10 times bigger than Harvard, Princeton, Caltech

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<p>I would like to know more about this, specifically as it relates to Harvard. Where is the information that shows that Harvard math is really "10 times bigger" than is MIT?</p>

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didn't apply...the school doesn't appeal to my interests, but from what I've seen, their admissions process is ludicrous.</p>

<p>First of all, there's this Marilee Jones character who goes around telling everyone "don't stress out...there's no need," and emphasizes the fairness of the MIT system. Then she and her adcomm consistently reject a huge chunck of the most qualified applicants in favor of much weaker ones who they deem "more interesting" (aka tons of URM's, favoritism towards girls, athletes like crazy)</p>

<p>Seriously, out of the 5 students admitted from my school over the last 2 years, I can say, without any doubt, that not one of them was one of the 10 most qualified applicants from our school. </p>

<p>All but one were hooked...they got in via MIT's unjustly magnified Affirmative Action. These kids were basically, slightly above average math/sci students who couldn't hold a candle to our school's top performers.
That said, from what I've seen, MIT isn't even consistent with it's Affirmative Action....I hear of tons of 1800's/1900's getting in because of URM status, but occasionally they'll reject a 2300+ URM just to prove that they don't accept all URM's.</p>

<p>There was one other candidate accepted from my school, and honestly, it came out of nowhere. He was top 20%, in moderately hard classes, and had an SAT in the low 2000's. Nothing to brag about, but somehow, MIT deemed him interesting and admitted him. He himself admitted that of the 8 applicants from our school that year, he felt 6 of them were better suited for MIT than he was.</p>

<p>Honestly, I saw someone refer to Marilee Jones' new system on the Caltech forum as openly "caring less and less about academics each year," and MIT alumni even agreed. It seems they don't care where you are on the spectrum: as long as MIT deems you "qualified" (which I think they define, for example, as a 650+ on math), it doesn't seem to matter where you are, you're chances of getting in are no better with a 2350 than with a 2000. I'm not saying kids with 2000's shouldn't get in entirely, but that the acceptance rate should obviously be higher for kids with excellent academic records than for kids with "good" academic records. Yes MIT does maintain a high SAT range, but that's much more because of the applicant pool than it is the adcomm.</p>

<p>I'm honestly shocked. A student from my school last year, who everyone refers to as "the smartest kid we've ever met," was rejected. It's one thing to reject qualified applicants in favor of lesser applicants, but it's another thing to reject kids who are like Nobel potential: just flat out brilliant.
The kids that will be attending MIT from my school this year are never mentioned when someone is listing smart kids, for example, they're simply above average, but nothing special, nothing to talk about. At the world's most prestigious Math/Science University, the students SHOULD be something to talk about.

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<p>Ivyaccepted, don't you find what you're saying a bit ironic? By your moniker, I assume that you were actually admitted to an Ivy. I don't see MIT admissions to be run any worse than are the Ivies. You complain that certain people with 'hooks' get into MIT over people who are more qualified. Uh, don't you think the same thing is happening with the Ivies? In fact, if anything, I would argue that this probably happens * more so * at the Ivies </p>

<p>So it begs the question of why is it so wrong for MIT to do what the Ivies are doing?</p>

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^But a fairer admissions process has lead to a smarter class, which certainly is a large part of Caltech's long-deserved rise in prestige.

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<p>Oh, I don't know about that. Specifically, I don't know if Caltech is necessarily any more prestigious than it was in the past. Caltech has * always * been prestigious among the technical community. I am not aware of any reason to believe that Caltech has been increasing in prestige lately.</p>

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What a nice silly thread to come back to.</p>

<p>Obviously MIT is becoming more Harvard-like and silly in its admissions. They still admit the very top academic superstars to sweep the Putnam, but also admit a whole bunch of academically weak students (by Caltech standards) for balance reasons. That's not bad but it's true. Let's swallow that and get over it. In between those academically weak admitted students and the Putnam superstars, there are lots of good and sometimes even superb kids who get rejected while academically weaker kids get in. That makes people mad and drives threads like this one.</p>

<p>To pebbles -- it is possible to rank people at least coarsely by intelligence in a way that splits MIT students into a few distinct groups. Take off the debating hat for a second -- do you really disagree with me? Do you think the average URM admit is intellectually at the level of the Putnam winners?

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<p>I thought the same thing that molliebatmit thought - which is that the average student at MIT or Caltech or any other school, whether URM or not, is not at the level of a Putnam winner. </p>

<p>But anyway, there is a larger point here, which is that, whether you want to call Harvard/MIT admissions silly, it has worked. Like it or not, it works. I agree that Caltech admissions are probably more strictly meritocratic than are the admissions at Harvard or MIT. But be honest, Ben, which school of the 3 has the least prestige? Come on, you know it's true. Similarly, I would say that Stanford, Princeton, Yale, and even Berkeley are probably more prestigious than is Caltech despite being easier from a meritocratic sense to get into. </p>

<p>Look, what can I say? Like it or not, prestige is not highly correlated with meritocratic admissions. Harvard doesn't exactly run the most meritocratic process yet has clearly run away with the top crown for prestige. Life is not fair, like it or not. I continually run into people, even who are technically oriented, who have never heard of Caltech. But I practically never meet anybody who has never heard of Harvard. I have practically never met anybody who is technical who has never heard of MIT. Maybe unfair, but it's true.</p>

<p>Wow this thread has grown big!</p>

<p>I always thought Caltech's relative lack prestige was a result of it's small size compared to HYPS and B.</p>