MIT's "Reverse Discrimination" on Its Admissions?

<p>I accidentally found this blog (<a href="http://rook441.blogspot.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://rook441.blogspot.com/&lt;/a&gt;) written by someone who applied to MIT this year and was rejected. This person has some points about MIT's "reverse discrimination." See the articles below:</p>

<p>*I didn't get into MIT today. And not in the sense that I won't get in until I get my letter, but in the sense that I was rejected from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. To the small percentage of you who aren't laughing at me: it's fine, it wasn't my first choice anyways. But I am somewhat concerned about getting into the University of Pennsylvania now, which is, in fact, my first choice. No matter. It comes when it comes.</p>

<p>What I'm really writing about today is gender discrimination; or rather, so-called "reverse" gender discrimination. I didn't get into MIT, but my sister did. When my cousin applied to MIT, she got in. So did three other girls from her school. But only two guys got in from her school. Coincidence? Not really. I looked up admission statistics for MIT online: for the fall of 2003, the Boston-based university had 10,549 applicants, out of which 2,898, or 27%, were female. (I'm assuming the rest were male or undecided.) That year, MIT accepted 29.3% of its female applicants but only 11.6% of the males. What does that mean? The admits were comprised of 849 females and 887 males. In other words, they were 49% female and 51% male; a near even split. Obviously, the admissions committee was aiming to create a gender-distributed student body, and with the reputation that MIT has of a predominantly male-dominated university, who can blame them? In conclusion, it's significantly easier to get into MIT if you're a girl. The question is: is this ethical?</p>

<p>This particular can of worms dovetails nicely with the debate we had in government class about affirmative action last Friday; in essence, race/gender is playing a large role in admission to many universities. The ethics of the gender issue are very controversial (I'm not going to address race right now; maybe in another column).</p>

<p>On one hand, how can the integrity of the admissions procedure be compromised for something out of any individual student's control? Maintaining a gender balance at MIT means, essentially, that [edit 2 begins] the percentage of males that get in is less than the percentage of females, and this could potentially mean that a small amount of the females who get in wouldn't have done so if admissions were gender-blind [edit 2 ends]. Basically, this undermines one of America's key tenets: hard work and dedication will reward you proportionally to your effort. Work harder, make more money, right? Not anymore.</p>

<p>On the other hand, who wants a student body comprised of 70%, or even 80% males? The completely different viewpoint offered by females cannot be made up for by an extra 200 points on the SAT, or admitting a few more valedictorians. No, in order to be a modern, diverse university, institutions such as MIT have to keep their student bodies gender-balanced. It's no different than as little as fifty years ago, when the University of Pennsylvania (an Ivy League school), was actually two separate colleges: one for men, and one for women. Some schools restrict themselves to women only. How is this any different? It's not like MIT denies that they discriminate based on gender; the statistics speak for themselves. Finally, putting men into a predominantly male society in college will either leave them ill-prepared for the real world, or instill in them a bad sense of equality that will allow them to discriminate against women in later life.</p>

<p>Or maybe not. Ideally, of course, the same amount of women and men would apply to technically-based universities like MIT (the problem is much less pronounced at less-technical schools), but that surely isn't happening. In my rejection letter, I learned that about [edit 1 begins] 13% of the total applicant pool was accepted. That means that the percentage of men accepted can't be much, if any more than in the fall of 2003. [edit 1 ends] The problem, at least for now, isn't going away.
Just something to get y'all thinking.</p>

<p>[EDIT 1: The admit rate for the class of 2010 is actually 13%, and has been changed accordingly in the post. Sorry. Also, I was sent a blog post by an MIT admissions officer, and after reading it, I can honestly say it makes me feel a lot better about my rejection and the entire admissions process in general. Read it here.]</p>

<p>[EDIT 2: Several people have complained to me that the women at MIT are no less qualified than the men to be there. They also say that my post states that the women who get in are not as good as some men who don't. I think I was misunderstood; the two middle paragraphs of this post are meant to provide constrasting viewpoints on a contradictory issue. I'm not taking sides, these aren't necessarily my personal opinions, I'm just setting forth two perspectives. In any case, I changed the post to hopefully prevent further misunderstanding.]*</p>

<p>Okay, the bottom line on all of this wahooing about affirmative action is this: you were not there reading applications, and therefore you are not privy to knowledge about which applicants are "better" than others.</p>

<p>Incidentally, I think it's silly to point to higher admission rates as "proof" that it's easier to get in as one thing or as another. Admission rates to many graduate schools in science are higher than undergraduate admission rates. Does that mean it's easy to get into these graduate programs? (Ha! You wish.) The people who apply are highly self-selected, and that the applicant pools are extraordinarily strong.</p>

<p>And it's all very well and good for men to highhandedly claim that women in science don't experience any disadvantages in their formative years. Tell that to all the people who look at me distinctly askew when I tell them I'm a scientist and a cheerleader.</p>

<p>This has been discussed quite a few times. Do a search for "gender" in the MIT forums.</p>

<p>we're just a lot easier on the eyes. that's all.</p>

<p>I've heard that MIT girls kick ass... ;)</p>

<p>Only when enraged. :mad:</p>

<p>It may be easier to get in as a girl, and I sincerely think that if there was an option (as there is with race) to pick "prefer not to disclose", I would have chosen it. The fact is, whether or not it's significantly easier to get into MIT, it still isn't EASY by any means... or none of us would ever have had to bother with the perfect SATs, perfect GPA, academic competitions, varsity sports, etc.
It is also worth noting that at many other non-tech-based schools, this trend has reversed competely. Overall, a larger number of GIRLS are applying to the top schools, and there are starting to be claims that schools are accepting MALES with lower SATs, etc.<br>
I conclude by pointing out that science and math really ARE a lot more welcoming for males, with the result that some (certainly not all) of the males that apply to MIT do so in much the same way that some people buy lottery tickets. I doubt there are as many female applicants who apply "just for the fun of it". The girls who are brave enough to be engineers and scientists even when I and others I know have LITERALLY been told that programming, physics, etc "aren't for girls" are very accomplished and very serious in their interest in science. The ones who aren't give up science the minute they do poorly at something, convinced that they must actually be somehow naturally bad at it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Okay, the bottom line on all of this wahooing about affirmative action is this: you were not there reading applications, and therefore you are not privy to knowledge about which applicants are "better" than others.</p>

<p>Incidentally, I think it's silly to point to higher admission rates as "proof" that it's easier to get in as one thing or as another. Admission rates to many graduate schools in science are higher than undergraduate admission rates. Does that mean it's easy to get into these graduate programs? (Ha! You wish.) The people who apply are highly self-selected, and that the applicant pools are extraordinarily strong.</p>

<p>And it's all very well and good for men to highhandedly claim that women in science don't experience any disadvantages in their formative years. Tell that to all the people who look at me distinctly askew when I tell them I'm a scientist and a cheerleader.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well to play devil's advocate, Law of Large numbers (1000 trials is enough, 2000 is plenty) should kick in in that self slection would ahve detered male and females equally if there was no real outside outlier.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, there obviously is as fewer women apply for top tech schools, but dominate other colleges (Harvard had 51% female I believe). So obviously there is something much more to it than simply opportunity. Its not hard to find articles of women outdoing men at these top schools.</p>

<p>Its like saying men are taller than women, but that doesnt mean all men are taller than all women. There is s deviation that has to be taken into account.</p>

<p>That said it would be cool if people could actually explore such topics, but America is a little tooo sensitive when it comes to anything close to that... too bad.</p>

<p>Now before someone sends me a nasty PM, this was just to present the other side despite whether or not i agree with it.</p>

<p>But it's like kcastelle is saying -- there is a force deterring females in the US from considering science and engineering fields, and from applying to schools like MIT. It's called societal bias, and while I think it's much weaker than it was ten or twenty years ago, it still exists.</p>

<p>Ben Jones has said before on this forum that the women who apply to MIT "pwn" (his word!) the men who apply.</p>

<p>MIT wants to have diversity and be equally distributed, that's why they accept about the same quantity of men and women, that's why they accept more minorities, etc. Although there have been complains that some URM's with stats not so great can get to MIT, I've known many that have done very well at MIT without having the perfect stats you might expect. Same goes for many girls I've met. That's why I really think that even if MIT picks a higher percentage of girl applicants than guys, all of them are very qualified for doing MIT's work. ;)</p>

<p>I think in fairness, it should be pointed out that gender discrimination happens a lot at the LAC's, especially the formerly-women's only colleges that are now co-ed. Take Vassar. It has been shown that Vassar admits men with markedly lower academic qualifications than the women it admits.</p>

<p>In fact, many universities out there practice "affirmative action for men" in order to correct the gender balance, because the fact is, there are more qualified women than men applying to college.</p>

<p><a href="http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/2001/05/22/fp11s1-csm.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/durableRedirect.pl?/durable/2001/05/22/fp11s1-csm.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yes Sakky, but two wrongs do not make a right, and by viewing # of apps its obvious of which case this is.</p>

<p>And MollieB if its "societal bias" I always like this phrase to sum up my arguement for gender differences:
If men and women are really the same then we would all be gay, or at least bi, and we would have stopped propogating a long long time ago.</p>

<p>Yet there are people who are GBLT but that's just my point. Theres no one specific thing that you can apply, but generally Girls like guys, and guys like girls. Is that something thats sooo bad to say? Girls prefer something guys do not, and vice versa. </p>

<p>Im not saying that women are any less qualified than men for those women that do like Technical fields/careers. But that can only apply so much when women are accepted at a disproportional rate to men, nearly double. </p>

<p>As for actually DOING the work, you can find any motivated individual and throw them into MIT and they would do fine. People say work at MIT is harder, but so was it at middle school from elementary, and from middle to high school. Its not HARDER, its DIFFERENT. Give someone the chance, opportunity, and teaching to be great and theyll be great.</p>

<p>There are plenty of people that would do fine at MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc than those that get "accepted."</p>

<p>It comes down to a lot of questions, the main of which include:
Did this person have the opportunity to fully excel?
Did they take advantage of that opportunity?
and How much did they achieve within their realm of opportunity?</p>

<p>But no one wants to ask generally "What are the differences between what girls/guys like to do?"
Why do guys do better on math and girls do better on writing?</p>

<p>Still, I think it should be said that if work was all people needed to do to get to college, than I'd hate to go to that school stuck around people that forgot how to live a long time ago.</p>

<p>PS If Im offending people Im honestly sorry, but playing devil's advocate on issues like these is quite the tightrope walk.</p>

<p>I doubt MIT would accept anyone who wasn't qualified, regardless of race, gender, etc. Didn't one adcom say that 70% of all applicants are fully qualified to attend MIT? They simply can't accept all of them. Why does acceptance rate matter, then?</p>

<p>Because "qualified" is a very coarse metric. It's not like people come in two academic flavors, qualified for MIT or not, and beyond that all differences are too tiny to matter.</p>

<p>Within the realm of "qualified" applicants, there are times when A is ex ante much better academically than B, as anyone reasonable would agree (including, I submit, the people who read the files). But sometimes MIT (and most other places) will accept B over A. </p>

<p>Those kinds of games rub some people the wrong way, because some people think universities should put intellectual promise and achievement first -- and not color balance, gender balance, sports teams, etc.</p>

<p>I personally think (in an economist-like way) that a profusion of models and a free-market atmosphere is probably best. Let some universities pay attention to color and gender in addition to academic promise, and let others decide purely on academic promise (guess who, ho ho ho). After a long equilibration, either one model will wilt or both will flourish, as the larger demands of life dictate.</p>

<p>Let a thousand flowers bloom.</p>

<p>Yup, but there are tons of GREAT schools that get looked over a lot becuase they do not have the laymen rep of MHYPS. If you apply to enough, REALLY known and REALLY unknown but GREAT youll get into something. Eventually youll get lucky :P</p>

<p>But if theres one thing to be said about MIT admissions is that no one has a "RIGHT" to a spot. It's not theirs until its theirs. :)</p>

<p>So, Ben, what you're basically saying is that when Caltech ends up being a superior institute of technology because they admit people based on academics and nothing else, you'll laugh?</p>

<p>Haha. Honestly, if I thought that, I would have said it straight out. I really don't know what the outcome will be. Diversity and balance are immensely useful for raising the stature of an institution. (Just look at how far Harvard has come by soft-pedaling meritocracy when convenient; had Harvard been overrun by academically deserving Jews in the 1920's, it would probably be Columbia or worse today.) </p>

<p>On other hand, I can't reasonably imagine the techy prestige of an MIT diploma not being diluted by the "balance" students. Recall that MIT's immense name was made mostly during the past 50 years, a period largely characterized by admissions practices quite a bit different from today's.</p>

<p>The real question is whether greater "general" prestige (which does tend to be improved by a more "balanced" class, in the Harvard style) will make up for the effect of the second paragraph. I think it's a really fascinating experiment.</p>

<p>(P.S. How's that for a politically correct post, boys and girls? ;-)</p>

<p>well... maybe people will realize that they dont HAVE to go into MIT to be successful? I think its really great as an EXPERIENCE which is one of the major alures of MIT. But its not something to get really upset over (frustrated and dissapointed is different)</p>

<p>well we'll just have to see now whether or not the world can make something of our mediocrity, won't we?</p>

<p>of your diversity, your diversity</p>