Mom here need some help for S

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>I'm new to the site (posting) but have found it to be a great tool thus far in researching schools/programs. </p>

<p>With that said I'm hoping someone here can give me some ideas and/or direction. This is my situation. My S is my oldest so this is very new to me. He is a 3.5 student, class rank is top 30% with no honors or AP courses (he's a sophomore now), but starting honors next year, soccer player. </p>

<p>His wants...
-mechanical or civil engineering school within a 6 hour drive from northeast ohio
-small(er) school, not a state university type campus
-men's soccer NCAA D2 or D3
My want... same as above and I would like the idea of him attending a christian(catholic) school.</p>

<p>I'm interested in knowing if anyone has done the 3+2 with a smaller LA school? For example, the 3+2 of King's College and U of Notre-Dame, or the 4+2 at Le Moyne College and Syracuse University.</p>

<p>Obviously some of the tops in Ohio are Case Western Reserve University (a far, far reach a this time) and U of Dayton. </p>

<p>Finances are going to play a big part in our decision. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance for reading and offering any suggestions.
~Ana</p>

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<p>I don’t have any specific school suggestions, but expect other posters will. But know that while quite a few students start a school with the idea of doing a 3+2 program, very few actually follow through on it. The schools use it as a marketing tool, but for a variety of reasons not many students do it. Sometimes their major interests change (especially if they spend 3 years NOT in the major for the final 2 years); sometimes they don’t meet the GPA criteria; and sometimes they get settled in with friends and a campus they like, and they don’t want to leave for a new environment and miss their senior year. I would suggest you try to find a 4 year school that is a good fit instead.</p>

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<p>First, it is important to remember that most students who major in engineering do not graduate in 4 years (a little more than half do so). Typically it closer to 5 years… about 85% graduate by the end of their fifth year. So, a 3+2 program can make a lot of sense, especially since it results in getting two bachelors degrees.</p>

<p>I have no experience with specific 3+2 programs, but I can point out two different LACs which have them:</p>

<p>St. Vincent College, a conservative Catholic college in Pennsylvania, has absolutely great scholarships, plus 3+2 agreements with U.Pittsburgh, Penn State, and Catholic University of America. The SVC degree is in mathematics (usually with a minor in physics). See the information here:
<a href=“http://www.stvincent.edu/academics/math-engineering/”>http://www.stvincent.edu/academics/math-engineering/&lt;/a&gt;
I highly recommend a visit to St. Vincent College (an hour east of Pittsburgh).
They also offer a summer camp: <a href=“Faith and Reason | Latrobe, PA | Saint Vincent College”>https://www.stvincent.edu/faithandreason/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Centre College, in Kentucky, has fairly loose connections to the Presbyterian Church and has relatively conservative, intelligent, students. 25% of students are Catholic, and a Catholic parish church is within walking distance of campus. Their 3+2 program has agreements with U.Kentucky, Washington University in St. Louis, Columbia (yes, the Ivy League one), and Vanderbilt. See info here:
<a href=“https://www.centre.edu/academics/majors-minors/engineering/”>https://www.centre.edu/academics/majors-minors/engineering/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A good Christian college in Michigan, Hope College, offers a full range of engineering majors and thus does not need a 3+2 degree. Hope has strong connections to the Dutch Reformed church, but it draws from the entire range of Christianity including Catholics (about 15%). The atmosphere on campus is strongly Christian, with values which are probably amenable to most serious Catholics. This could be a great opportunity to compare and contrast one’s faith with other Christians. See their engineering webpage here:
<a href=“Engineering Department | Hope College”>http://www.hope.edu/academic/engineering/proginfo/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Personally, I really like all of the above colleges and have listed them in order of my preference (yes, I am Catholic. Also happen to live in Ohio as well).</p>

<p>I am a fan of the University of Dayton, and love the spiritual atmosphere on campus. It has an excellent engineering school. However, financial aid might be a bit on the skimpy side.</p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>3+2 programs probably arent a good idea if finances are an issue. How could you know what the two year aid would be? the second school would view this student as a transfer and transfers get the worst aid. He wouldnt get the better aid that an incoming frosh would get.</p>

<p>Another issue is his rank. the schools that give the best aid tend to accept from the top ten percent</p>

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<p>Grove City College</p>

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<p>I don’t think Grove City would be that great for a Catholic student (Catholic friend didn’t feel comfortable due to the large number of students who felt that Catholics were not really Christian, in part due to their understanding of the practice of infant baptism, and while it’s just one person, this belief seemed pervasive enough.)
An obvious one would be Saint Louis University - Jesuit, good academics but right at his current level of competitivity, good college of engineering.
Loyola Maryland and St Michael’s, in Vermont, less obvious :slight_smile:
Depending on test scores, don’t neglect looking into Lafayette or Bucknell.
Overall, 4+2 is better than 3+2, more likely to be accomplished. </p>

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<p>University of Scrantron
Marquette University</p>

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<p>Not Grove City.</p>

<p>I think the mom here needs to run some NPCs on each school’s website because many of these schools do not meet need and would likely expect her to pay more than she can. </p>

<p>when people are looking at small private schools with engineering, they often need to be prepared to pay for them unless the child’s stats are so high that huge merit might come.</p>

<p>And as I said above, I wouldn’t go with a 3=2 plan if finances are an issue…and as others have said, many/most kids never end up doing the 3-2 because they don’t want to leave their friends or significant others.</p>

<p>I also don’t like the idea of an eng’g student NOT starting frosh year with other frosh classmates in Freshman Engineering Programs. Friendships are made, and there’s a lot to be said for what goes on in those FEP classes…the students get hands-on experiences with the different eng’g disciplines so that they can fully-determine which discipline is right for them.</p>

<p>Why are state schools off-the-table? They often have the best engineering and Colleges of Engineering can feel like a small-school-within-a-larger school. And, if the school also has an Honors College, that can also provide that smaller school feel. An instate public can be an affordable choice if money is an issue. And if his test scores end up being high enough, large merit can be gotten from some OOS publics. </p>

<p>merit can be gotten at some privates with engineering, but since merit is applied to “need” and their costs are very high, you will likely still be expected to pay a lot. for instance, SLU often gives $15k per year merit awards. But if that is applied to “need” and SLU doesn’t meet need, you could still be expected to pay 40k+ per year after student loans. UDayton can be the same way. </p>

<p>I may be reading too much between the lines, but I suspect that the student attends a smallish high school ((maybe a private/Catholic) and therefore there is a concern about being overwhelmed at a big state school. I understand that concern. My own kids attended a small Catholic high school. I was concerned how they would adjust at some big state school…especially concerned about my older son who is quite shy. Both were engineering majors when they started at their large flagship (older son changed to Math major), so they both got that “small school feel” right away with their freshman eng’g classes and honors classes. </p>

<p>OP…how much can you spend each year? </p>

<p>Most schools do NOT meet need because they dont have the money to do so. merit is mostly based on test scores. Schools that award merit usually give the biggest awards to those whose test scores are within the top 5% of the school. So, if a school’s middle quartiles are ACT 25-30, then larger merit might go to those who are scoring ACT 34+. There are exceptions; my kids’ flagship awards huge merit to eng’g majors with an ACT 30+</p>

<p>What is your home state?</p>

<p>have him practice for the PSAT that he’ll take next October…if he makes NMF, there are large merit awards.</p>

<p>Did he take the PSAT or PLAN as a soph? If so, how did he do?</p>

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<p>Use <a href=“http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramSearch.aspx/AccreditationSearch.aspx”>http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramSearch.aspx/AccreditationSearch.aspx&lt;/a&gt; to search for ABET accredited mechanical and civil engineering degree programs.</p>

<p>Use the net price calculators to check need-based financial aid.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Most bachelor’s degree seeking students overall (i.e. not just engineering majors) take longer than four years to graduate, if they graduate at all. Just over half finish in five years.</p>

<p>Of course, the best prepared students going in have the highest graduation rates, so it should not be surprising that graduation rates are higher at more academically selective schools.</p>

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</p>

<p>A 3+2 program includes five years’ worth of course work. A student who would be unable to complete a nominally four year degree program in four years would probably take longer than five years to complete a 3+2 program.</p>

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<p>4 year grad rates are exceptionally good at Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh and Union - for engineering.
The first 3 schools are D1, Union is D3. </p>

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<p>Duquesne?</p>

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<p>Echoing the comment earlier, I’ve read that few students end up completing them for the reasons already given. Often, at a given LAC, none. Seems hard to believe? Take a look at Columbia’s program <a href=“Combined Plan Applicants | Columbia Undergraduate Admissions”>http://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/learn/academiclife/engineering/combined-plan-program&lt;/a&gt; Guaranteed admission into an Ivy! Wow! But click on the link of participating colleges and there are over 100 schools listed. The Columbia website says it has admitted on average about 150 transfers total to Columbia. That’s the total for Columbia College and Columbia Engineering, BTW. So it seems obvious that the numbers taking the Columbia Engineering pathway from these 100+ colleges is small. </p>

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<p>^^ Or the number taking the pathway is medium to large, but many are unsuccessful in getting through the guaranteed requirements, thus the small number of admits.</p>

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<p>All the posters are accurate. I must add that NONE of the 3+2 nor 4+2 are automatic/Guaranteed routes. The student still has to meet the requirements of both institutions, both academically and financially. Financial package at the current institution might not be the same from the institution that the applicant is hoping to transfer to.
What most students end up doing is the 4 year program and then apply to grads school for engineering. Say a degree in Physics, Maths, Comp Science, etc, and then a MASTERS or PHD in engineering from whatever grad school they are interested in.
Best of luck to your son.</p>

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<p>I would look at Manhattan, Stevens, and at any other Catholic school that might have engineering in a six hour radius. NY is out of the range, but Manhattan is a terrific school for those with not such hot stats who want to get into engineering. They get the job done and are in a small campus in NYC’s very nice Riverdale neighborhood. I give them a lot of credit for what they do with the kids they have. NYU POLY is also a possibility. THeir aid and prices are still better than NYU proper and you get the degree, but probably not the love. RIT is also another school to check out as well as Maritime colleges that are thoughout the US. SUNY Maritime is a great deal. With engineering programs its not just whether a kid get into a program that is important but whether he will come out of it with the knowledge and degree.</p>

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<p>Actually, Columbia’s website does use the phrase “guaranteed admission.” What they appear to mean is that there is no competition, or quotas, etc… If the student meets the requirements, then admission is automatically offered. These requirements are not necessarily easy, however, and includes never making less than a B (3.0) in any pre-engineering course.</p>

<p>My reading of requirements for Washington University in St. Louis is similar. </p>

<p>St. Vincent University also says “students are guaranteed acceptance at University of Pittsburgh.” No doubt certain requirements are applicable (bur are not listed). Another option at St. Vincent is majoring in engineering science. This major is interdisciplinary and is also offered, for example, at Berkeley, Dartmouth, Vanderbilt, Tufts, Penn State, and University of Pittsburgh. Very respectable option.</p>

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<p>What most engineers do is go to a 4 year school for an undergrad degree in engineering, and do not go on to get a graduate degree. Of course some take an extra semester or two to finish. But MOST engineers don’t have a graduate degree.</p>

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<p>I will reemphasize that engineers typically take longer than do other majors (and that there are good reasons for this). The following is from a 2004 study done at the University of California, Davis:</p>

<p>“In general, approximately 54% of new freshmen level students who graduated in the unit in which they started, did so in 4 years. Engineering majors are the exception to this pattern; only 38% graduated within 4 years. Because Engineering students typically have a large number of courses with tight prerequisite chains, it is difficult to maintain the schedule needed each year to graduate in 4 years. Furthermore, approximately 20% of Engineering students who graduated last year did so in majors that require more than the 180 units needed in most disciplines to graduate. Accordingly both the 4-year and 5-year rates for Engineering degree recipients are lower than the rates for the other colleges and divisions.”</p>

<p>Key statistic is that only 38% of engineering students graduated in four years if they begin as engineering students, compared to 54% of other majors who do not change majors. The study explains the reasons for this rather well.</p>

<p>85% of engineering majors graduate within five years if they begin as engineering students.</p>

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<p>Re: <a href=“Combined Plan Applicants | Columbia Undergraduate Admissions”>http://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/learn/academiclife/engineering/combined-plan-program&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

</p>

<p>Note some the conditions of the “guarantee”, as noted here: <a href=“Combined Plan Applicants | Columbia Undergraduate Admissions”>http://undergrad.admissions.columbia.edu/apply/combined-plan&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<ul>
<li>3.30 GPA overall and in pre-engineering courses.</li>
<li>No grade lower than a B on the first attempt in pre-engineering courses.</li>
<li>Three favorable recommendations (which introduce subjective evaluation into the “guarantee”).</li>
</ul>

<p>And the fine print:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>These conditions are probably not especially unusual at 3+2 programs, which may contribute to the low rate of actually transferring to the “2” school (Columbia or otherwise).</p>

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<p>Thanks to all of you for sharing your insight and opinions. I have read every word and take it all to heart. I’m not sure if I’m allowing myself to become too overwhelmed by this process, or if the process itself it sooo overwhelming. Again, thank you all!!</p>

<p>A couple questions have been asked:
our home state is Ohio. The reason we are looking for a small(er) school is because we know he would be more comfortable and excel at a small institution. It’s not that we are not entertaining public universities. He will be taking the ACT first thing next year and repeating it often, I’m sure. I don’t anticipate he’ll score above a 23 though (just being realistic) due to his test taking challenges and PLAN score. The issue of 2 different locations is a concern of course, so for that we are trying to find 2 schools that are near each other (like LeMoyne and Syracuse U). And finally as for the financial part of it… yes we understand the financials, especially for 5 years of college, but we are also prepared to apply for private scholarships to help offset some of the cost. Based on many of the net price calculators our “out of pocket” would be about the same for an in-state public w/ R&B or OOS private… but I know it’s not set in stone until he applies and FAFSA is submitted. </p>

<p>If you wouldn’t mind, I would love to get your thoughts on this paragraph:
Students in the program complete their four-year bachelors degree — in physics, computer science, chemistry, or biology, as appropriate — at Le Moyne, while taking engineering courses at Syracuse University at no additional cost. Students who complete these engineering concentrations in good standing (including maintaining a 3.0 GPA, both overall and in their science and engineering courses) are admitted directly to the appropriate master’s degree program at Syracuse University and receive a 50% tuition waiver, typically completing their master’s degree in an additional three semesters. Students in this innovative program earn both a bachelor’s degree from Le Moyne and a master’s degree in engineering from Syracuse University in just one semester more than it takes students in traditional 3+2 engineering programs to earn two bachelor’s degrees.</p>

<p>Again, thanks so much for all of your thoughts. Many of your suggested schools are already on our list, but several have been added. </p>