<p>
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...Mom always told me, ...be sure you can support yourself, ...You never want to find yourself dependent on some man (her words, remember this was 1976) for support, you want to be able to make your own way if you have to
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Backpedal a few more years for my mom's advice. "Be sure you take typing so you have something to fall back on." -ca.1961. Luckily she lived long enough to see the mainstream options for us women go well beyond that. God bless her.</p>
<p>OP has obviously hit quite a nerve. :o</p>
<p>Elbereth, if you think you might be interested in medicine, you might want to choose both options, depending on how many transfering credits you're pulling in from AP exams, etc. My D is doing both - graduating with her B.S. next year with all pre-med requirements met, and completing a B.A. in Art History year five. She wants to be a doctor, but also wants to study Art History because the subject matter fascinates her, and she has a secondary strong interest in a career path in federal law enforcement, and - anyway, she has this vision of why the Art History B.A. will support her secondary interest. She will have minors in chemistry, sociology, religion, and pre-forensics. </p>
<p>She is able to get it all done in 5 years because of transfering credits from high school, and taking more than the minimum credit hours during college. </p>
<p>Another approach you might consider is to pursue whatever undergrad major interests you, and, should you decide to complete pre-med requirements, you can always do so post-bacc. This seems like a good approach from a gpa perspective, though I am not sure of the financial implications. D said her school has an entire department solely dedicated to post-bacc for pre meds, so I suspect this may be the case too for many large universities. </p>
<p>Bottom line, I think you should study/major in whatever interests you, and you might even change your mind several times once in college. Mine spent all of freshman year tasting everything on the menu. She wanted to study engineering, chemistry, computer science, anthropology, religion, languages - she would call home and complain that she wanted to take ALL the classes, and it was impossible to choose just a few. One morning she called and went all the way through law school before 9:00 a.m. She was very undecided for her entire freshman year, and didn't firmly commit to her science major until well into sophomore year; I think this may be true of a lot of students.</p>
<p>I also don't think it's critical - or even possible - to clearly articulate a career destination this early. You need some time to explore your interests and related possibilities.</p>
<p>As to what to tell your parents - try to give them examples as to how some of these areas of study will translate to career direction. Last, there is a book by Richard Florida (I completely forget the name of it - someone here might know) that describes career paths and the creative class (knowledge workers) - if Florida's work is credible, and I think it is, then a strong liberal arts education foundation will serve you very well in the emerging economy. Your parents might enjoy reading it, and it would help them to see that the world you will work in is going to be very different.</p>
<p>Latetoschool wrote "I also don't think it's critical - or even possible - to clearly articulate a career destination this early. You need some time to explore your interests and related possibilities."</p>
<p>I whole heartedly agree.</p>
<p>I started a separate thread on this topic because I think the way people happen into their careers by chance is a fascinating topic. I certainly don't recommend an aimless throw of the dart; however, I would urge liberal arts graduates not to try to pigeon hole themselves into specific careers just yet. Most colleges have active career counseling services that help to point students in general directions. (For example, my son just attended a seminar in New York at which Williams grads involved in the arts made presentations explaining how they got their jobs, including museum curating, advertising, architecture, graphic design etc.) If you use your summers working jobs or internships at organizations that appeal to you, most likely one thing will lead to another. Or you'll choose to live in a specific place and will be driven by the choice of employers at that location. Or you'll have a friend or a relative who will help you make a connection. The world of work is immensely diverse. One thing will lead to another and presto! you'll have a career.</p>
<p>My niece graduated from Skidmore with a degree in anthropology a few years ago......after trying out a couple of different career paths, she's decided that she wants to be an occupational therapist, and is taking the required prereq's. at a local community college that she didn't get at Skidmore......then on to grad school.....(She's working full time daily)......I know hands down that she has no regrets about doing it this way....she loved her liberal arts undergrad education and wouldn't trade it for anything...she knows its the only time she'd have that opportunity.</p>
<p>Jmmom - Amen, great wisdom.
Latetoschool - Ditto.</p>
<p>I foresee my daughter following a path very similar to your daughter's, or perhaps graduating with her BA first, then finishing in the post-bac program. If she can make the finances work out, I would rather her take 4 years at Dartmouth and take full advantage of all her opportunities, then finish those last pesky med school requirements in a post-bac program here in her home town.</p>
<p>Garland, I do feel for your husband, there not as many people leaving practice down here, but there are still a lot of complainers! Many of the happiest MDs I know are those that have extensive interests outside of medicine. I think there are a lot of reasons for that - like other jobs, there are times when practice is not intellectually stimulating, and they get that stimulation from other interests; I also know a number of people who fell into the great trap of medicine (maybe all professions are like this, I don't know) - they worked so hard for so long to get there,they couldn't realize what "there" was like, and that it wasn't for them until it was too late.
Your husband, garland doesn't sound like either one of those things - he sounds burned out, pure and simple, trying to bail out the Titanic with a teaspoon will do that to you. I hope he enjoys teaching more, my DH loves it, but it is a thick skin occupation, too, you have to develop some distance from the students or you can get sucked in too deeply - good luck to him.</p>
<p>The bigger issue too is that today's college students may well have two, three, even four career iterations before they retire. The emerging economy is a very different world that the one where a person selected a career, worked 40 years, and retired. (D's pre med advisor told her of a retiring physician in the area who is returning to undergrad for his degree in Art History - he wants to teach, and he's in his 60's.) </p>
<p>This speaks significantly to the need for a broad liberal arts education. Still wish I could remember the title of Richard Florida's book - another good one is Tom Peters "Re-Imagine - Business Excellence in a Disruptive Age". One of my favorite passages in the book is where he recommends any organization that wishes to design a new website should hire an anthropologist to lead the project; the anthropologist should then hire the programmers and web designers.</p>
<p>My husband works in sports, and I asked him once if he'd prefer hiring someone with a specialised degree (i.e. communications or broadcasting) or one in the humanities.....he said he'd take an English major anyday....."I;ll train them myself....at least they've proven that they can read and write".....</p>
<p>When I first started out in life, I felt "inferior" to the big shots with Harvard MBAs and other professional degrees (I have an Ivy grad degree in humanities). As it turned out, I swept past all the MBAs I <em>personally</em> know in terms of where I am in the business world, how much I make, etc. A wealthy colleague once said to me, "I don't need a MBA or a law degree - I just HIRE people with MBAs and law degrees." And several wealthy families said something similar - they don't want their kids to be lawyers, since you can always hire one. </p>
<p>Now, MBA holders and lawyers shouldn't flame me; people SHOULD get MBAs and law degreees if that is what they want. My ONLY point is that even a "professional" degree is can sometimes be the equivalent of vocational training --- if you are wll trained in the humanities (writing, critical thinking etc) you can soar as high as you want in many fields.</p>
<p>Any student reading this thread and agreeing with much of what has been said demonstrating the benefits of a liberal arts education, may want to consider schools that have a CORE curriculum.
I sometimes see on CC threads, comments that frown on core curriculums as limiting student choice or not allowing them freedom to "explore", by both parents & students. By requiring a core curriculum, a college is ensuring that each student attending has the fundamentals of a liberal arts education regardless of what the degree is upon graduation.
And if your school has a core & also offers "practical majors" like business, acct., sciences, etc. you just might end up with the best of both worlds!!</p>
<p>I believe critical thinking skills outweight any specific subject matter when it comes to preparation for a working life. Thinkers excel in business, as entrepreneurs, as problem-solvers, and as innovators. Studying any serious academic discipline that you love hones your critical thinking skills. </p>
<p>A thinker can always acquire a specific set of information at any point in the future that they should need it. (Obviously if you know you need and want certain skills in college you can study them in college.)</p>
<p>What core does best is to prod exploration. What an open curriculum does best is to remove the constraints that prevent <em>more</em> exploration. </p>
<p>A student who is inspired and curious will get a great deal out of an open curriculum because nothing prevents him from studying exactly the stuff he'd get in core, yet if a corner or two needs to be cut to get more depth in a given area it can be done. </p>
<p>Open curriculum leaves this choice up to the student. Open curriculum schools tend not to choose students who can't exercize these choices responsibly and with academic passion.</p>
<p>I've always told my kids major in what you have a passion for ( if you are lucky enough to find one ) and the rest will fall linto place. I know to0 may kids that have picked majors based on what their parents have told them instead of what they want to do. Sure parents can advise but in the end it really shoud be the kids journey as to what their true passion is. Oh and one more thing I've learned... mydreams are ot necessarily my kids dreams, they have to find their own.</p>
<p>Cama</p>
<p>SB mom: while open curriculum is great, again I say not all cores create problems for students who want to explore many things & have depth. That's where using electives comes into play & maybe also taking a minor in some area as well. If you already are required to have 3 Eng. in your core for example, you only need 3 more to get a minor in English. And you can combine that with your Biology major and still apply to med school if you want!</p>
<p>It is imp. however, if you do want a career in business say, that you have necessary depth & breadth in your business courses, but you've also got to follow the right sequencing of courses if you hope to do it in 4 year time frame. That's imp. for science, math & foreign language as well. You can't drift around too much in the early part of a college career if you hope to graduate in 4 years & be employable too.</p>
<p>Yes, you can always aquire specific sets of information any time in the future but lots of times you have to demonstrate having acquired specific sets of information within those college yrs - in oder to get the marketing job, or be accepted to the grad program you want, for ex.</p>
<p>Unless you want to be a lawyer...then you can major in anything! & still have a chance to earn a spot in law school ;-)</p>
<p>I think that both students and parents often make this choice more difficult than it has to be. </p>
<p>If any student has an o'erweening passion for a specific career, e.g., if being an architect, a military officer, an actor, or a doctor is IT, then it seems to me they should directly pursue that career in college. If you know what you want, just go get it by the straightest path, and consider yourself fortunate that this aspect of your life is blessedly uncomplicated. This post is not addressed to you lucky few. As the Buddha said "If you have no pain, I cannot help you."</p>
<p>If, however, they are interested in more than one subject, and/or have no idea what type of profession they will pursue, then they should go to a quality college that has strong departments in the areas of interest, and "just say NO!" to internal or external pressures to answer the question "what are you going to be when you grow up?" </p>
<p>A liberal arts education is the most effective way to develop an understanding of the manner in which the major disciplines of human knowledge contribute to the sum of human knowledge. With an attitude of exploration and trust, bounded by the breadth requirements most colleges demand, most students will find that they are able to select (or create) a major by junior year. One step at a time. </p>
<p>I don't think it is advisable to cut off avenues of learning a priori. This attitude really amounts to trying to outsmart yourself, or at worst, to let the imagined end - "I will be a respected attorney, with a beautiful house and a beautiful wife, and I will ask myself, well, how did I get here?..." (images of zombies lurching en mass down Rodeo Drive to the tune of the Talking Heads) - dictate the means and suck the life out of the process of education, precisely because the learning experience is reduced to, in great part, "boxes checked" on the way to this pre-crystalized future vision...."Good God, what have I done?" (Thank you, David Byrne). </p>
<p>No shoving and pushing of the children towards fear-based-life-solutions-boxes, please! I can't tell you the number of parents I have run into who either dictated their child's major (check out Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle) or who tell them that the education will not be funded UNLESS the student chooses a "practical" major. In a subtle, or sometimes not so subtle way, it is like saying to the child: "Now you will go to jail, a comfortable jail of my devising. Here is the yoke you will carry in jail, and the name engraved on the yoke is Daddy. You will not starve, you will have enough to eat, and I will not have to worry about you." </p>
<p>How many of us have heard the sorrow of individuals in their 30s, 40s, or 50s who are discouraged with their profession - they have come to realize that the career they chose, either for a) money or b) status or c) because their parents picked it, is dead and lifeless. Parents, counsel against decisions solely for a) or b), and don't be responsible for c) the short-circuited potential of your own offspring! (Jumps up and down on soapbox, waving arms and shouting).</p>
<p>From a practical standpoint, it is very important to share with them what you may know of various careers, what the employment trends are, what daily life is like, what the typical compensation is, etc. We don't want them to be like Tiny Tim tiptoeing through the tulips without benefit of any sensible considerations. But at least we should be willing to allow them to choose their own direction, while we serve as sounding boards, sources of information, and oral historians - e,g, "Your Uncle Bob, the builder, started out as a lawyer, but he found that he couldn't stand the amount of paperwork that consumed his days....." </p>
<p>It is far better to work with the natural rhythm of maturation to allow the boundaries of focused concentration to become evident as life's demands require. Gertrude Stein referred to this process of the natural narrowing of the channel of life's energies (paraphrasing, could not find passage) 'at twenty-nine we exchange vague bright possibilities for a small hard reality, which we nuture and develop.' Adulthood lasts for a lllloooonnnnnngggg time (with the caveat "if you're lucky, you'll live to be old").</p>
<p>Beautifully said, Yulsie!!!</p>
<p>Bravo, Yulsie!! I think this one should be archived for posterity.</p>
<p>CAMA - thank you - it is wonderful to see one's same opinions stated sooo nicely. I can't imagine either of my kids pursueing something that would not bring them happiness - or being forced to pursue a major that they have no real interest in. We feel strongly that our kids have the right to choose - just as we did - where their lives will take them. Because of circumstances I was not able to pursue my passion until a bit older - but I did finally - and I can't imagine doing anything else for a career - and all of my choosing.</p>
<p>There are too many parents who are insistent upon their kids following majors that will bring them to the ''top'' of the pile. Then there are those of us who encourage our kids to follow their dreams and to be happy - and that may not mean striving for the ''top of the pile'' - but following their hearts and doing what they really want to be doing. My kids couldn't be any more different from each other - and each has searched for that place where they can be exactly who they are and doing what they want to be doing - for their own - not for any one elses glory. They both have a very good understanding that $$ is not the answer to everything in life.</p>
<p>I wouldn't have things any other way for my kids. They have seen what parental pressures have done to their friends - and realize that they are very lucky to have the choices they have - to make on their own.</p>
<p>Yulsie - another fan of your post. </p>
<p>Back in the stone ages when I was in college, I felt so badly for my suite mate whose parents were totally on top of what courses she should choose every semester (not to mention what her major should be). The pressure was visible on her face after every conversation. My parents hadn't been to college and were so proud just to have me there. More importantly, they fully expected that I would successfully wend my own way. I treasure this and use it to guide my role in S's choices.</p>
<p>H, otoh, very much is in the college=career prep camp. We joke that his mantra has always been "Our S should major in whatever he wants, whatever form of engineering that is." S actually does want to go that direction, but all of us (H,S and me) have agreed it is critical that S go to a school where other fields are strong, so that he can freely change his mind.</p>
<p>Even H understands that the worst possible outcome would be the sorrow of S waking up some future decade and realizing that he is not where he wants to be, but where H wanted him to be.</p>
<p>One of the greatest gifts life has to offer, imo, is if you do what you love and love what you do. You can't get there from here, if "here" is parental pressure.</p>
<p>One of the greatest gifts life has to offer, imo, is if you do what you love and love what you do. You can't get there from here, if "here" is parental pressure.</p>
<p>^^EXACTLY!!!! Boy - it really bugs me tho when that is followed by - $$ is the prize at the end of the trail - cuz it sure doesn't always buy happiness - which is priceless - IMHO.</p>
<p>This is reminding me of something. Friend of mine is a VERY conservative gentleman, CEO in the risk management/anti-fraud field, very reserved, old fashion etc. Corporate man all his life; married now for 30+ years, wife stayed home, one son.</p>
<p>I first met his son when the young man was 15 or so, and was amazed - father and son could not have been more different, in every evident way. This straight-laced corporate type loved his son very much, and did not seem the least bit concerned that son had spiked purple hair, piercings everywhere, a crowd of very "strange" friends, or that he thought he would paint pictures or maybe do sculptures for a living. He seemed perfectly thrilled to have such a son, and totally accepting and supportive of who he was. </p>
<p>Son applied to some colleges (???) with strong programs in drawing, painting, etc. and got accepted at one or two. Father was relieved the son got into any school at all, given the Cs through high school. His art portfolio got him in I'm guessing. First couple of years of college the son sort of goofed off, didn't really settle into any firm choice etc. </p>
<p>A few weeks ago, I ran into the father at some function, and I asked after his son. He was beaming with joy: at college the young man apparently discovered and fell completely in love with environmental engineering, and was thriving and achieving, incredibly happy, and might even get departmental honors. Of course, he's still an "artist", but he won't be starving.</p>
<p>One wonders how the son might have become completely misdirected and perhaps even miserable, had his father been cut of a different cloth, and tried to insist on "practical majors", or force his son down a more business-oriented path - instead, the son was free to explore and choose...</p>