Mom needs reality check for gr.9 child

Parent Cafe
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<p>thumper, it appears that, except for some recent difficulties, this kid has learned math easily and well. Some kids do. My S has been struggling some this year; he’s in algebra II/trig. He’s never had difficulties before. I don’t think it’s bad for him to struggle some with an academic subject. (It’s the trig that’s been difficult for him, and by “difficult,” I mean “getting Cs on the tests without doing a lot of the homework and without studying.”)</p>

<p>Since the OP’s S has done well overall, and had difficulties just the past two months, repeating algebra II would be overkill IMHO. Better to find a way to focus on the parts that were difficult over the summer, I think. </p>

<p>anitaw, you asked about the math sequence. I cannot answer for the OP’s S’s school’s sequence, but in my son’s science and tech program, there are various paths a kid can follow, and which one a kid takes depends on the kid’s score on the incoming math placement test required of all incoming students. </p>

<p>From 9th to 12th, sequences can be:</p>

<p>Algebra I -> Geometry -> Algebra 2 Trig -> Pre-calc honors</p>

<p>Geometry -> Algebra 2 honors -> Trig Analysis honors -> Pre-calc honors</p>

<p>Geometry -> Algebra 2 Trig -> Pre-calc honors -> AP Calc</p>

<p>Algebra 2 honors -> Trig Analysis honors -> Pre-calc honors -> AP Calc</p>

<p>Algebra 2 Trig -> Pre-calc honors -> AP Calc -> Calc 3/Differential Equations (from local university)</p>

<p>Required is four years of math up through at least pre-calc. And that’s not four high school credits of math, but four years of math in this program. (So some kids graduate with six, seven, even eight HS math credits.)</p>

<p>One of my S’s fellow freshmen is in Algebra 2 now, but has started a trig analysis distance learning course, and when he’s done with that, will take a pre-calc distance learning course because he wants to take AP Calc in 10th grade. The kid is pushing himself; it’s not external. (So OP, I believe you!)</p>

<p>A couple of months ago, my S was not at all interested in taking pre-calc over the summer; he wants to have fun and free time (and yay! for that, I say!). He thought his buddy was nuts for taking on so much math because that means his buddy cannot go to nerd camp; not enough time. (And nothing, but nothing, is better to my S than nerd camp!) Last night, however, S mentioned to me that maybe he’d like to take pre-calc, but he knows it’s too expensive… It’s not, but man, I did NOT see that coming!</p>

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<p>The second half of Algebra II is a challenging section of math. I know many students who “hit the wall” when they reach that level. Even some students who “sailed through” previous math courses had difficulty. I personally see no reason for this student to keep on this track. If he’s having trouble with this course, no matter how easy previous math was, he just doesn’t need to face AP Calc or differential equations at the community college level as a high school senior. He’s in NINTH grade and has three more years of high school and a challenging IB courseload ahead of him. I’m sorry…but I just don’t see the reason for this. I just don’t. </p>

<p>High school is different than elementary school and middle school. Students not only need to know the material, but they need to be able to organize themselves to get the work done…and understand it. AND ask for help and get it when needed. From what the OP wrote…this student is sinking and isn’t willing to discuss it with the teacher or get any help to make the situation better. At the high school my kids attended, the decision would be out of the student’s hands…he would be moved to a different level of math with a D in that course…unless he retook it in the summer and got a better grade.</p>

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<p>orjr: Hey we’re on the same train, so I totally get where you’re coming from. And I, too, don’t see an obvious stop. </p>

<p>Our oldest, a HS junior has always been on the math (along with everything else) fast track. But as things got harder, math was the only thing that didn’t require much work to keep a high A. Just the way his brain thinks. None of this comes as easy to his younger sister (now 8th grade) but she tested into higher classes – same track as your son – because she’s a hard worker. But we’re seeing her having a harder and harder time keeping her head above water in math. A lousy Algebra teacher in 7th grade contributes to the problem, but the other is she just isn’t “getting” it.</p>

<p>So she’s doing okay (B) in Geometry, but we’re all concerned about Algebra II next year. I’d love her to retake Algebra I, but the way our school works, that is only for the remedial kids. GS thinks we’re crazy asking to repeat a course with a solid B, but I know the foundation is not solid.</p>

<p>Algebra I and Geometry both will be reported on her HS transcript (although not computed in the GPA). We’ll do some summer Algebra work, but may pull her back to the normal 9th grade “advanced” track (Advanced Geometry) if self administered tests show she’s not up for the class.</p>

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<p>SoCalGal09 - I soooooo agree with you that having a solid Algebra foundation is crucial.
My daughter, not a “mathy” person at all has tested into Algebra for 6th grade. We said a firm NO, and she will be doing pre-Algebra next year. I think that because she is following the “mathy” brother (as in your family :)), it has made us realize that fast is not always the best. Even with this “slow down” track, there is not going to be enough classes for her in HS ! This is really sad in this whole education system here!
A suggestion for your daughter, since she has already done Algebra 1 and Geometry - Intro to Algebra course at AoPS. I believe they are starting one this June. Let her try that and see if she feels like jumping into Algebra II at school. AoPS has a pre-test which will tell you if she is ready for this course.
I so believe that a solid Algebra is crucial, that I will have my son take this exact course in the fall (hope they will offer it) even though he will be in pre-calc at school at the same time. We LOVE AoPS here!!!</p>

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<p>What is AoPS???</p>

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<p>To all of you whose kids are struggling with Algebra II.</p>

<p>My understanding is that the next course in sequence is always pre-calc. This is basically Algebra II on steroids, so there is time to review material already learned.
We actually have a different problem here in our house - the Algebra II course is not moving fast enough for S, so he has resorted to following his own pace, ahead of the class. Looks very good on the surface, but I am having a BIG headache about it :(</p>

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<p>[Art</a> of Problem Solving](<a href=“http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5DArt”>http://www.artofproblemsolving.com)</p>

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<p>[Art</a> of Problem Solving](<a href=“http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/index.php]Art”>http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/index.php), a Web forum (where I first learned about CC years ago) and a series of books published by the people who run the Web forum. (The books actually came first.) </p>

<p>[Art</a> of Problem Solving Textbooks](<a href=“http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Texts.php]Art”>http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Books/AoPS_B_Texts.php) </p>

<p>They’re a good resource for math-learning young people.</p>

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<p>cross posted with token</p>

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<p>Speaking as a high school student, sometimes the paths we always planned on just don’t work out, and what gives any one else the right to tell us we have to continue to persue them? Your son has an interest in something and friends, it would be traumatizing to take him away from either and could effect his grades to the negative. It’s your call, ultimately, but give your selves both time to cool off then have a real, serious discussion about goals and plans and priorities, then see if you can settle on a plan you both feel good about.</p>

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<p>ojr,
At our IB program, the math track(s) for kids taking Alg II w/Analysis in 9th grade is this:</p>

<p>Alg II –> Pre-IB Math Studies –> SL Math Studies/AP Calc AB –> AP Calc BC OR AP Stat OR no math</p>

<p>Alg II –> Pre-IB Pre-Calc –> SL Math/AP Calc BC –> AP Stat OR MV/DiffEq OR no math</p>

<p>Alg II –> Pre-IB Pre-Calc –> AP Calc BC –> HL Math, but could take extra math – AP Stat and/or MV/DiffEq – if desired</p>

<p>The pre-calc and pre-IB math studies classes are largely consoldiation of skills from Alg II and taken a little further. Not everyone comes in at Alg II level – but they must come in at least ready for pre-IB Geometry. Some come in higher.</p>

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<p>OK as far as the track goes, here is what our school offers:</p>

<p>Alg. II –>Math studies –> SL I –>SL II
Alg.II –> SL I –>HL I –>HL II
There are no other math classes offered except Intro to Stats (not AP) there are no AP classes offered.
Of these, he would take the first track listed, but if he could stay lower than that, he’d probably still be happy! SL II uses the same text as AP Calc.</p>

<p>NOW - for the upshot - I guess I really have to confess to an over reaction (maybe it’s stress - but that’s a whole other story!) Anyway, S met with teacher today who confirmed his assignments are all up to date and his grade is fine except for the two tests. Re: the test taken this past week, S explained all of his prep , confusion, etc. and the teacher said “Oh yeah, I haven’t told the class yet, but almost no one did OK on the exam - I think I may have set up the problems badly. I am planning to allow all students who want a re-take to do so next week”. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT???
S is very relieved - will spend time working on understanding this weekend and plans his re-take for Tuesday after school before leaving for the district tennis tourney. He is back to a smiling guy. This school frustrates me to no end though.
The best thing is he DID make the connection: “I’m so glad you made me talk to him (the teacher), mom”</p>

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<p>There is serious discussion that, after this year’s group of pre-algebra students (most are in sixth grade) finishes, we will no longer allow a student to take algebra in the seventh grade. Fortunately, my youngest S will be in this group. He, like his older brother and dad, is a math guy. But the same cannot be said for those in his class. He tells me just a handful do well in the pre-algebra class, but the grades do not reflect that. We have a retake policy, so these kids often retake quizzes and tests for higher grades. Sure, their parents can brag how smart their kids are, but … are they? Many kids live on those retakes.</p>

<p>Our math sequence is:</p>

<p>Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Pre-Calculus, AP Calculus AB</p>

<p>It will change next year, with all current pre-calc students required to take calculus before they take AP Calculus. Don’t ask. I cannot figure out that one. I am of the belief that scores on the AP exam will not jump if we put in calculus first. The problem does not start at HS. It starts in the elementary grades.</p>

<p>We also have Cambridge in our school. So, the advanced track is:</p>

<p>Algebra, Geometry, Cambridge Geometry, Cambridge Algebra II-Trig, Calculus and then AP Calculus AB.</p>

<p>There is a flaw. Why would the high-flying math kid take two geometry classes? Except that those classes are weighed. </p>

<p>We already have kids who take AP Calculus, learn little (and one cannot blame the teacher for all of this), get a passing grade but only take the AP exam for the weight. I wish we’d change that policy. If the kids had to get a 3 for the weight, maybe they would take AP a little more seriously. We’ve never had a kid get higher than a 3 on an AP Calculus AB exam. </p>

<p>(My oldest S took his BC class at an area college and got a 5 on that exam.)</p>

<p>One of our math teachers, who taught my oldest S two years ago, likes what some neighboring county schools do. They use the PSAT math score as a guideline for placement. Students do not place in AP Calculus without a 600 or better on the PSAT (or in this case, 60). Of course, there are exceptions, but it’s on teacher recommendation.</p>

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<p>There are whole countries that not only allow but require seventh graders to take algebra. (My wife grew up in one of those countries.) Crashing and burning in some higher math course is usually a sign that a lower math course was poorly taught. </p>

<p>[Hung-Hsi</a> Wu’s Home Page](<a href=“http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/]Hung-Hsi”>Hung-Hsi Wu's Home Page) </p>

<p>The best way to improve the math curriculum at a school where students are struggling would not be to slow it down in the higher grades but to make it better grounded in the lower grades. </p>

<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics: Teachers’ Understanding of Fundamental Mathematics in China and the United States (Studies in Mathematical Thinking and Learning.): Liping Ma: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematics-Understanding/dp/0805829091/) </p>

<p>Elementary math is neither really “elementary” nor particularly easy, but it can be well taught if a school works at that.</p>

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<p>D’s high school recently changed the sequence.
Previous, beginning in 8th grade: Alg I > Alg II > Geometry > Pre-calc/trig > Calculus.
Current, beginning in 8th grade: Alg I > Geometry > Alg II > Pre-calc/trig > Calculus.
I think they moved Alg II to sophomore year just for the reasons stated here: the difficulty of second semester Alg II. Another year of math & of maturation, plus having to deal with the visual/spatial requirements of geometry the year previously, makes it less likely that kids will crash & burn.</p>

<p>Any of these courses can be honors or standard, and can lead to standard calculus or AP calculus (I don’t think there’s an “honors” calculus). </p>

<p>Kids who struggle in math (obviously not the OP’s son) can take a modified sequence.</p>

<p>I really like the fact that there are multiple levels of each course so that kids who aren’t really “math” kids can still take a reasonable sequence, but not fall behind, and so that the honors track really is an honors course, containing kids who (mostly) like and “get” math.</p>

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<p>D’s math track also has her in Alg II as a sophomore. I agree that the second semester is the toughest. During the second semester, her teacher has rearranged the sequence of topics to place the harder ones early in the semester and the easier topics toward the end. The later topics can stand alone (i.e. probability, sequences and series, etc). This rearrangement was done because the teachers in other courses really turn up the heat in the last quarter: significantly increased reading, more essays, large projects in History, English and Chem. Added to this is preparation for any SAT Subject Tests the kids “want” to take. Their success at this point is largely determined by how well they manage their time. This has been the most difficult problem for D</p>

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<p>“Maybe I don’t really have a question----- somebody just tell me that the fact he knows he’s unconditionally loved might help in some way, and how do you weigh allegiance and bonding with your school (friends, sports, leadership, newspaper, etc) with the idea of switching to the school down the road because their academic program seems to be a better fit?”</p>

<p>It’s a decision your son would have to make by weighing the factors for himself.</p>

<p>My S, 20, did it twice. First, when he decided to go to an IB program in a magnet school even though virtually all of his closest friends – who had been with him since kindergarden – were going to our zoned AP intensive high school. </p>

<p>The second time he did it was after junior year, when he transferred out of the IB program into the AP program at our zoned school. He did it because at the time he was considering engineering as a college major, but the way his IB curriculum worked out, he wouldn’t have been able to fit in a math class or AP physics in his senior year classes.</p>

<p>Both times worked out for him. He made some extremely close friends in the IB program, friends who are still friends now that he’s away in college. When he went to the local high school for senior year, he reconnected with old friends, and had a wonderful senior year in a program that was an excellent fit for him.</p>

<p>We allowed son to make the decisions in both cases. We just helped him make lists of plusses and minuses of the moves, but left the final decision up to him. H and I felt that either program would have been fine for son. In both cases, he waited until the last second to make up his mind, and he kept trying to get us to make the decision for him, but we left it in his hands. Both seemed to be important steps toward his developing the critical thinking skills to be a responsible adult in charge of his own life.</p>

<p>Interestingly, S ended up realizing he doesn’t want to be an engineer, but probably wants to be a teacher or psychologist. He’s still glad that he changed high schools.</p>

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<p>Momreads, it seems weird to me that you have kids doing Algebra in 7th grade, but don’t offer BC Calc. Here only the advanced students (25-30%) are allowed to take algebra in 8th grade, but most of them take Calculus as seniors and a good portion take the BC exam. A few kids take algebra in 7th, but only if their parents stamp their feet and insist on it. There were enough kids in Mathson’s class that did this (or skipped ahead by taking pre-calc in summer school) that they were able to offer a post BC Calc class his year.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that the original post raises two related but analytically distinct issues. The first is the math issue. Math performance tends to be in large measure a function of innate talent; different kids “hit the wall” at different times. I’m not saying to give up on tutoring (if the child wants it and is willing to commit to it). But slowing down is not necessarily a bad thing and might well have long term benefits.</p>

<p>On the AP/IB issue. I had two children with profiles that were somewhat similar to the OP’s S. If I had it to do over again, I would put them in programs that focused on their weaknesses. In my view, the strengths take care of themselves. So maybe if it is not going to totally destroy his confidence, keeping him in IB is the right thing to do.</p>

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<p>“On the AP/IB issue. I had two children with profiles that were somewhat similar to the OP’s S. If I had it to do over again, I would put them in programs that focused on their weaknesses.”</p>

<p>Research actually indicates that people achieve much more when they focus on their strengths. Given instruction, people who are strong in a skill will gain more than will people who were weak in the skill.</p>

<p>Lots of the research in this was done by the late Donald Clifton, an industrial/organizational psychologist, who said that one should play to one’s strengths while managing one’s weaknesses.</p>

<p>“Each of us has weaknesses, of course. Activities that are effortless for some may be frustratingly difficult for us. And if these weaknesses interfere with our strengths, we need to develop strategies to manage around them . . .. To clear our skewed perspective, however, we must remember that casting a critical eye on our weaknesses and working hard to manage them, while sometimes necessary, will only help us prevent failure. It will not help us reach excellence. What Seligman is saying – and what many of the excellent performers we interviewed are telling us – is that you will reach excellence only by understanding and cultivating your strengths.”
[Are</a> You Afraid of Your Weaknesses?](<a href=“Gallup Business Journal | Gallup Topic”>Gallup Business Journal | Gallup Topic)</p>

<p>Check out his book, “Soar with your strengths.”</p>