<p>Found this website recently. Love the info these forums contain and very much break a leg to everyone over the next six weeks. One topic thats not covered very much especially in the musical theater (MT) threads is money. Thus </p>
<p>How are all of you going to pay for all of this?!</p>
<p>Perhaps some additional context would be helpful. We’ve been content for sometime that our son - who is in the middle of his high school junior year - would stay in-state and go to a state-supported school to pursue his degree in Musical Theater (MT). We have a few choices, though none would be confused for top tier schools. Recently he switched voice coaches to the head of the studio he’s been taking lessons from over the last year, and she advised that he should consider some other schools such as Carnegie Mellon (CMU), Michigan, etc. What was left unsaid is if she was going to adopt him and pay for it all.</p>
<p>As a rule of thumb we’ve been estimating the cost of in-state to be an all-in cost of $25K per year. Out-of-state/private would have a cost of $50K per year, and as I write that it already feels low. Thus we have been budgeting to spend $100K’ish on his education, and that’s doable. While we’re throwing out numbers we earn about $200K per year. I don’t type that to show-off but just to solicit candid feedback especially about financial aid. Finally, the final numbers I will throw out are 1 and 5 as in we have one other child that is five years younger than our son.</p>
<p>We have long had the philosophy to get both our children out of undergrad with zero debt and strongly encourage them to plan to get graduate degrees later in their 20s. The idea of potentially having to spend another $100K ($125K?) for our son’s undergraduate education is daunting. Debt does not make sense given the low (or is it high?) odds of son having a job with a MT degree which will pay well enough to be able to service said debt. </p>
<p>I lied earlier more numbers coming. Our son has good but not great grades - 3.6 out of 4.0 in an unweighted scale - and while scored very high on his verbals (99 percentile) on his PSAT he is right in the middle of the road in math (51 percentile). I expect he’ll score somewhere between 27 - 30 on his ACTs.</p>
<p>Weve told our son well take him to Unified Auditions in Chicago; however, for him to go out-of-state schools will have to offer a financial aid package what will make the cost comparable to staying in-state. Given the uber-competitive nature of getting into any audition-based MT program, is our current financial stance tenable? If we go down this rabbit hole and are fortunate enough to get acceptance letters, do we need to be prepared to spend 2x what we previously thought or as with many things in life reality is somewhere in the middle?</p>
<p>My D’s stats were close to your son’s - maybe a little higher grades at a very non-competitive HS. She auditioned for MT schools 3 years ago and received academic scholarships (merit) of anywhere from $15,000-$20,000 per year and several top MT schools. In addition, we qualified for subsidized Staffords and work-study, which helped a little. She only received small talent awards ($2,000-$3,000) from a couple schools. She received no merit awards from our state flagship. So, in the end, we are paying “around” $25,000 a year for a private school. It can be done.</p>
<p>This problem does get kicked around here on the MT Forum:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/884188-money-issues-worth.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/884188-money-issues-worth.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1311654-least-expensive-mt-bfa-u-s.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1311654-least-expensive-mt-bfa-u-s.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1209471-why-include-expensive-colleges-list.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1209471-why-include-expensive-colleges-list.html</a></p>
<p>Cost is definitely an issue and posts appear pretty much every year along the lines of, “gee, I got in but my parents can’t afford it, what do I do?”</p>
<p>With some schools costing north of $60k, it seems to me to be a major challenge to get the number down to your ballpark of $25k, which is also our ballpark as well ($35k in fin aid is a pretty big number with a family income of $200k).</p>
<p>We are realistic with our d in explaining that:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Schools north of $50k are highly unlikely to be affordable and she should limit her list in this regime to maybe 1 or 2 schools unless she has extra time at Unifieds.</p></li>
<li><p>Schools north of $40k are likely to be unaffordable unless she gets significant academic and/or artistic merit awards. She should limit her list to schools in this price range to places that indicate that this is probable after discussions with both the financial office and theatre department. Of course they cannot guarantee anything until after auditions but at least you can find out if it is possible and how probable the likelihood may be based on grades, test scores, and a general idea of artistic level.</p></li>
<li><p>She needs to have one or more schools on her list that are $25k drive-out without awards as “financial safeties.”</p></li>
</ol>
<p>This is just us, your mileage and approach may vary.</p>
<p>The good news is that there are private schools that do offer academic and/or artistic merit awards in the $15-25k range for students with solid academics and high artistic capability. Few state schools seem to offer awards in this range.</p>
<p>And another thing…we believe that student loans are so risky for MT kids as to be imprudent given their prospective earnings:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1418008-more-freakonomics-life-upon-wicked-stage.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1418008-more-freakonomics-life-upon-wicked-stage.html</a></p>
<p>But that’s just our family opinion.</p>
<p>We also worried about financing school at some of the higher priced programs. We are also intent on getting our children out of school with as close to zero debt as possible- so far, so good. We let our D know up front what our limitations were, and told her she was welcome to apply to some of the more expensive programs as long as she applied to a couple of financial safety programs also. We reiterated that even if she were accepted to a prestigious program, she could only attend if she received adequate scholarships-either merit or talent. It’s been a while, but I believe her stats were very much in line with your son’s.</p>
<p>It is very hard to plan financially for where to apply, as some of the very expensive private schools end up being less costly than in-state public schools. Her top in-state program was UCLA, which offers little in assistance. She was fortunate to get an adequate package at a private BFA enabling her to attend. However, she left after one semester and ended up re-applying . The second time, she ended up at an out-of state public which offered a very generous talent package, despite everything we had heard to the contrary. They ended up being significantly less than our in-state public, even with all of the travel expenses. If we had limited her applications to programs we thought we could afford, she would not have applied to either of these programs. </p>
<p>I think it is important to be honest with your student about what you are willing to spend, and then come up with a list that includes not only talent safeties and reaches, but financial safeties and reaches. Don’t exclude schools that appear to be too expensive, as sometimes they end up being the most affordable. At one point, I think there was more talent money for boys- I haven’t kept up and that may have changed with the rising popularity of MT for boys- I still think your son is more likely to receive a good offer than a girl of equal talent would be. In any case, this is a very daunting process, and there is a lot of great information here on CC. Good luck!</p>
<p>Interesting topic, although it comes up on a day when we just found out my D did not get offered an audition off one of her pre-screen applications (a program that accepts less than 1% of applicants, so not terribly surprising), so I’m kind of down about this whole process in general right now. My D got a 32 on her ACT and has over a 4.1 GPA. Thus far she’s gotten accepted academically at all places she’s applied, and for two schools has been asked to apply/interview for their top merit scholarships where she’d either get a free ride or well over 50% of tuition. I can foresee a scenario where she doesn’t get a spot in the MT programs at such schools, and does at ones where we’d have to pay more out of pocket. That will be an interesting discussion to have.</p>
<p>The money talk is really intimidating; I’ve had it many times with my parents. Our estimated EFC from FAFSA is about $1000. I’m hoping to get generous financial aid from my schools – I have a 31 ACT/4.27 GPA and we have a low income (35K a year), plus my sister is in college too. I also qualified to interview for full tuition scholarships at a few schools like jeffandann’s daughter and I applied for the Daniels Fund, a scholarship for low-income kids from Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado that covers every single penny that is not covered by EFC or other scholarships. If I received this scholarship, I would be able to go to any school I wish which would be the most incredible thing ever. But I’m not betting on it and am still applying for tons of scholarships, and praying for generous financial aid packages. I’ll be so insanely thankful when all of this is over and I can just get excited about where I’m going for school! Right now I feel like I’m going to have a panic attack every day haha.</p>
<p>Paying for college is an issue for all students and families. Where it becomes a particular issue for MT students whose goal is to perform after finishing their programs, is that you can pretty much count on very lean years when a student is focusing on auditions. Realistically, working a job that can meet the expenses and pay back loans is tricky. It also take parents with resources to be able to help out during those lean years when the performer is trying to make a go of it.</p>
<p>Many MT majors do go onto other types of work that offer more stability. We have a son who has forcused on performance since he finished college, and it has been tough. He is successful in that he is barely able to meet his expenses in NYC. He has to juggle a number of part time jobs, has had issues with past employers when he had to ditch jobs and run for an opportunity. None of his opportunities have yet come to a long term arrangement in terms of pay. </p>
<p>But he has NO college loans. He is square in that area. And we have none on his behalf either. So we can give a a hand, or handout every now and then. Those who did take out hefty loans have either had to fold and find something or have defaulted on their loans or both. My friend who is a mom who begged and borrowed to send their DD to TIsch has been having a very tough time paying back both the parent and student loans, and still wanting help out her DD now and again during some rough spots. </p>
<p>Though most college grads find it a tough go to be self sufficient after graduation, the very nature of show biz makes it more difficult since auditions and gigs have sketchy schedules and are very demanding in terms of attendance. Trying to juggle lots of auditions along with a performance schedule AND a part time job is very difficult sometimes impossible. Often impossilbe. And if the actor wants to be in LA or NYC, it is expensive. It’s not as though these kids are going to want to come home after college and live at the parent’s house, performing at local venues, though many end up doing so due to lack of funds. </p>
<p>Also because of the competitive nature of MT programs with so many bodies trying to get so few spaces, getting money for them is difficult. Most talent awards are not so big; the best bet are the academic merit monies that are still tied to test scores. My son did get a number of talent awards but the highest was $5K for a program costing 10X the amount. We are over the top grateful that a state school has a MT program and that he chose it and even got some talent money for it. It helps when we give him some assistance here and there,</p>
<p>I want to emphasize that borrowing a lot for any kid planning on any major, even one that has all the lucrative earmarks, is a dicey proposition UNLESS you can afford it. Engineering majors dropping out of that field is very common Kids do change their minds while in college as to what they want to be. I have a close friend who borrowed and scraped up a huge amount of money for her DD to go to a school with a great program in something that had all the promise of a great payback. The DD switched her major to philosophy and noone had the stomache to make her transfer to a local school. We so want to give our children everything. Now both daughter and mother are in serious trouble financially with those loans just growing each day, as they can’t make a dent in them. My son has a number of friends and colleagues in the same situation. Their tax refunds are snatched, there are liens out at banks on them, etc, etc, all because they can’t repay their student loans and their parents are tapped out too. With MT and performing arts, you know up front that making the money is going to be a challenge for some years out of school, and it is something to keep in mind. If something otherwise happens, great. If you can afford to pay for this, great too. But if you cannot, please do think about this.</p>
<p>The above hits it squarely on the head. The costs of colleges now, and the debt you can ate on, is staggering. And what adds to this for me is when I talk to people in the business who insist that kids should go to college for something other than MT. I have had a number of people tell me it’s better to major in, say communications, minor in dance/theater/voice, then take your shot when you graduate, so you supposedly have something to fall back on. That ultimately when it comes to auditions it’s your talent and not your degree that matters. This past summer I listened to a guest artist at a summer camp tell kids (and us parents) you don’t have to go to college to be a performer! (despite anguished looks from many parents!!). He dropped out in his sophomore year,
was working in the financial planning industry, and on a lark decided to audition for a show in Chicago. Didn’t get it, and 6 months later he got a call to sing over the phone for a director that wanted him to replace a sick guy in the touring show for Les Mis. And he’s been on Broadway ever since.</p>
<p>I think the flip side is also true. I quote an article from SUNY Fredonia’s web site often, where they list the 20 or so work habits that make performing arts students attractive employees in the business world. So maybe kids going into MT will become millionaires using their acting skills to sell widgets!</p>
<p>Oh, well. We are committed to letting our D follow her dream, and I can only trust she gets a spot and that I somehow survive the angst of the next few months. As a somewhat older dad with a daughter going into performing arts and a younger child that still has to go to college, and even with each of them with the ability to get merit scholarships, when I calculate saving for college, retirement, etc, etc, my current estimated age of retirement is 121. If the market doesn’t tank again. And so it goes.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone for your responses, especially emsdad for the links you embedded. Discussing money is often a taboo subject, and given our financial situation I realize what we are dealing with is very much a first-world “problem”. It appears our thought process is similar to many of yours, though I’m still open to some one chiming in with a different view point. </p>
<p>We’ll pursue workshops for this summer as well as this fall begin the application process for admissions and auditions and see how it all plays out.</p>
<p>Regarding the OP: You should assume that you will get zero in financial aid other than unsubsidized loans no matter where you apply. (Sad but true). You don’t even need to get fancy to calculate this. The EFC will assume you can pay around 40% of your gross income in tuition and attendance costs. I’m not saying that you “can” pay this nor that you “will” pay this, but it is what the formula assumes. So you might as well know now, you’re out.</p>
<p>You need to count on merit scholarships and many schools do offer them but the majority are based on academics, not talent. Your son’s GPA is respectable. Tell him to keep it up. He should also keep taking that ACT until he does score 30 (or better… more is better) and that will help. It is time well spent since it can make the difference between being offered money and not at many of the programs he might be interested in.</p>
<p>I’m telling you this because if he is talented, he won’t have an academic issue with getting in to most schools with his grades and scores but the money is worth chasing and if getting it or not getting it boils down to just 1 more point on the ACT, take the test again!! In general, the majority of merit money is handed out to freshman applicants and is renewable. Get it while you can because with your income, you will not get financial aid. That’s just the way it is. Best of luck!</p>
<p>Our son’s preferred school was 20,000 higher than the in-state BFA option. Because of the track-record of the Preferred School’s graduates being employed, we went with the higher-cost option. This has been confirmed as a wise decision the more we hear from our son’s peers and their parents as to the type of training they are receiving in their current schools, however, the real proof will be in March of 2015 after his senior showcase, and then 1 to 5 years after that.</p>
<p>If you would like to PM me I’d share the actual numbers.</p>
<p>Couldn’t agree more about the ACT. When my D got a 32 on hers, it opened a floodgate of sorts as to the number of schools contacting us and the amount of merit scholarships that became available.</p>
<p>^^^yep and yep. I’m mentioning it as a cautionary tale. My daughter took the test, scored well enough we knew academically to get into almost every school she applied to with Northwestern being the only one that could go either way (she was in the range but not at the top). So she stopped and moved on to audition prep. If I knew then what I know now about how merit money is handled, I would have made her take that test again, and again and again until she got the best score she could. For a couple hours of her life, she could have earned 10’s of thousands of dollars in merit. Time well spent. Totally worth chasing. Wish we had known because she certainly could have scored near perfect if we knew to try for it. At the time I was only thinking about admission and I knew academically, she was fine it was just about the audition. I did not know at the time to also think about the money. So heads up!!! Won’t make the same mistake with kid #2. Live and learn.</p>
<p>One more piece of advice - some schools are willing to negotiate if you get more than one acceptance. When my son auditioned in 2007, CMU even advertised that it was willing to do this, and I think it helped us get a scholarship that came to about half tuition. I’m not sure, but I suspect it helped that he also got into SUNY Purchase, which as a state school was much cheaper but still considered one of the top acting schools. My son also had good SAT scores, which might have helped.
He also picked up some tutoring work starting sophomore year, and moved into an off campus apartment with some friends which brought the cost of room and board down considerably.
He was able to graduate without debt, and like others here I highly recommend it for anyone going into the performing arts. He is doing well for someone just a year and a half out of school, but we still have to help out on occasion. Theater is a complex business that takes some savvy to negotiate as well as talent.</p>
<p>We are in a similar financial situation to the OP. Major difference was that our other child was older by four years. She was talented academically and attended a private school with 80% paid in scholarships. DS, on the other hand, had decent grades but was an awful tester. We knew he wouldn’t get academic $ but he worked hard on test prep so he could get in the MT schools he was applying for. He ended up with several acceptances and went to a good MT program at a private out of state school that (at the time) was $45K/year. He got a quarter of that in a talent award. We took out about $25K in loans that we knew we could pay off within five years of his graduation in 2010. He is Equity and has gotten more work than I thought he would as a performer. He also teaches theater and choreographs and directs which adds to his income. It’s not steady, however, and he could have never been in a situation to pay back loans and pay his expenses. I will say, however, that although he was talented when he went into college, he came out a completely different performer. The training he got in voice, dance and acting made him into a professional. People who last saw him pre- or early college couldn’t believe he was the same person. Yes, talent is essential, but the value of training cannot be underestimated.</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone for your comments. Resisting the urge to go to Amazon and buying ten different ACT prep workbooks and locking him in his room until April.</p>
<p>My S did so poorly on the ACT that he came home and removed all of his colleges from the ACT website. His SATs were good, but not stellar. He did get a good amount of scholarship money anyway - so it all depends!</p>
<p>baymom - you made my night!!! I agree with your post, and I am glad your S got so much out of his education. I am a firm believer in college - not just to improve the talent, but to learn how to live life in general!!! I can’t wait to see the change in S from his senior year in high school to his senior year in college. I know it will be worth it - even the loans!</p>
<p>“It all depends” is absolutely true when it comes to merit money but not true when it comes to financial aid which is a formula. If you have an EFC that suggests you can pay the entire bill, you will get no need-informed aid. But you could get straight merit aid.</p>
<p>Laughing at the idea of locking your son in his room for the ACT prep 1stTimeLongTime. . I’ve got a son that is a junior too and I know full well that is a non-starter. Our strategy is prep once (right now targeting the April and June test dates), then take the tests back to back without any additional prep (at least nothing too hard core) and see how it goes. Sometimes test experience alone can make the difference. If we still need to revisit it in the fall of his senior year, we will but hopefully two swings will be good enough.</p>