Monkey Business

College Majors Business Major
1

<p>Has anyone here read the book Monkey Busincess by Rolfe and Troob? Its about these two guys who were IB associates and basically talk about why every part of their jobs sucked. I'm halfway through the book, and if what these guys say is anywhere close to the truth, you'de have to be out of your mind to want to go into IB? </p>

<p>How many of you high school and college kids really understand what IBankers do day to day? </p>

<p>And are there any I Bankers on here who've read the book and can comment on how much their experience was like the book?</p>

2

<p>Quite a few people on here have read it. Starting off life will be similar with a lot of grunt work and long hours. Some people can do that some can't its a matter of personal tastes. The bankers I have talked to worked very long hours as well. </p>

<p>I do not plan on being a banker.</p>

3

<p>plenty of people have read that book. that's like a must-read.</p>

4

<p>Whether they like their job or not, i-bankers still get extreme stress. But yeah, some people actually like doing that stuff. And many more don't like it, yet they can handle it. And the rest can't handle it and only thought about doing it for the money.</p>

5

<p>There's a different perspective to everything. Yes, I read it and did feel a little discouraged about some of the material, but these were obviously two disgruntled workers who had different ambitions in life than to become a banker. They probably got caught up in the hype of the "prestige" and "monetary" factors that they disregarded the grueling aspects of the job at the beginning and later suffered from their feigned desired. Am I saying this book is completely false and only relative to their perspective? No, unfortunately plenty of people feel the same way after a few months on the job and the authors are trying to create a test by utilizing the book to assess if the reader after reading their story really desires to become a banker. If you feel overall discouraged by reading the book then probably ibanking is not suited for your desires, but if you can accept all the strains and issues presented by the authors, then ibanking may truely be what you want out of life.</p>

6

<p>Well I doubt most people think about anything BUT money when going into banking. Lets be honest, one of the biggest reasons people become bankers is so that they can move onto the buyside (PE, LBO etc). Heck, thats why "exit opportunities" are one of the things bankers tout to discourage people to go into trading, IM. It also helps that its one job which is willing to pay an outrageous pay package for a person just out of undergrad (PE/VC/HF/excellent trading firms are harder to get into).</p>

<p>If you like money enough and willing to have no life for a few years early in your career banking is for you. Otherwise, look somewhere else...there are plenty of other opportunities around. The reason banks can get away with working people for outrageous hours is because the employees love money and know its not possible to be paid like this anywhere else. Simple as that.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
No, unfortunately plenty of people feel the same way after a few months on the job and the authors are trying to create a test by utilizing the book to assess if the reader after reading their story really desires to become a banker.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>They aren't creating any test. They are filling a void in the book market. Those two guys are smart enough to realize that every prospective banker will read that.</p>

<p>Their lives are [insert word for feces here]. And thats not my opinion, thats the opinion of two different low level bankers I have talked to. Don't confuse yourself with any notion that you will be doing some amazing work. It will be grunt work and you will have to endure long hours, stress etc. However, they are willing to undergo it to reach their goals.</p>

8

<p>You go through two years of hell for a future of wide open exit opportunities.</p>

<p>Look at the authors of the book, I believe one of them in particular moved on to a hedge fund. He got hired by the hedge fund because of his investment banking experience.</p>

<p>You wanna work for a fortune 500 company, private equity company, hedge fund, or venture capital firm where you -usually- get a better lifestyle? take a look at the job postings for these positions, they almost always will require 2-3 years worth of investment banking.</p>

<p>People should be fully aware that the banking lifestyle sucks. It is not good. Most accurate books will tell you this. Read Running of The Bulls by Ridgway, a girl in that book has to pull a -140- hour week during her SUMMER INTERNSHIP for Lazard. Another person chronicled by the book makes a note that while most of his friends spent a summer in NY for their internships, they never really got to see NY because they were spending every waking hour at the office. That's how it goes.</p>

<p>If you want a lot of money but don't want this kind of lifestyle then you'd better look to another potential profession.</p>

<p>Law? No. 1st Year Associates in big law work almost as much as bankers.</p>

<p>Medicine? You might be working less in medicine but only marginally and you have to go through so many years of schooling, residency, etc. You can get rich but it surely will not be in your early years.</p>

<p>Engineering? Good entry pay and entry hours but it requires a lot of preparation as an undergrad, and the pay doesn't increase as much as you'd find in banking or law.</p>

<p>You could try starting your business but there's a large amount of risk and you'd probably still be spending a tremendous amount of hours initially trying to get your business started in the first place. Entry pay might not even be great as you'd have all sorts of crazy expenses initially.</p>

<p>Trader? People who work on the trading desks will make as much as their banker peers and much more than their IBD peers later, but trading is a pretty intense atmosphere where you eat what you kill so if you can't kill you're ****ed.</p>

<p>Most people on this forum fail to realize the importance of exit ops. Yes there are obviously people who will be doing banking for the rest of their life. Maybe they like the long hours, maybe they like the fact that the job -- besides the hours doesn't require an extremely high level of thinking. </p>

<p>But many people end up switching industries. The natural move is to switch to the buy-side, why work on selling services when you can be on the side with the money that's calling the shots, the side where the bankers want to actually be friends with you. </p>

<p>Not only that but there's Corporate Dev/Business Dev, where your ideas actually matter and will affect how the company is run. There's a hairline cut in pay but the hours are only 40-60 a week. </p>

<p>The writers of monkey business were pretty much on point when they wrote their book. But the banking experience seems to have really helped both of them out and look at where they are now. I think that's the most important thing to get out of the book, that banking's lifestyle is tough but toughing it out can lead to something much better.</p>

9

<p>does IB really have much better exit ops than trading? </p>

<p>and dont traders work hours like 7-5 or something? compared to IB thats great.</p>

10

<p>yea but the initial work that traders do is much more mentally stimulating than what Ibanking analysts do, so a 80 hr work week for a Trader may actually feel more like a 100 hour work week for a banker. </p>

<p>Theres no way around the hours, everyone on Wall Street works hard.</p>

11

<p>Am I right in saying that Traders are more likely to get into Hedge Funds and Investment Bankers more likely to get into Private Equity? Do management consultants or any other occupatiion send more people to PE than Ibankers?</p>

<p>Also, if your goal is to eventually just become a real estate/stock investor or business owner which occupation would provide the best experience, Trader/Investment banker, PE etc?</p>

12

<p>even if a trader works 7-7 which is what a day in the life from vault says, they dont work on weekends so that cuts down the hours per weak substantially lets them have a social life</p>

13

<p>Do a search on the pluses and minuses on trading as well as differences in trading as well (flow vs prop etc). This has been discussed quite a few times. In a nutshell:</p>

<p>If you are a good trader you have a better lifestyle and its very performance based.</p>

<p>If you are a bad trader hours are the last thing you will worry about because you will be fired. </p>

<p>90% of all market participants are said to fail (they lose money). This affects traders who bet (for example prop traders who currently make the large pay packages).</p>

<p>Stop worrying about hours if you are going to be a trader, start worrying about how in the world you will succeed.</p>

<p>As always, use the search function of this forum. This has been talked about in several discussions.</p>

14

<p>trading's exit ops is really trading. the skills aren't very transferrable, that's one of the cons to doing trading.</p>

15

<p>I disagree. Traders are better suited (particularly prop) to move over to the buyside (PE,VC,HFs particularly). Eddie Lampert was a risk arbitrage trader at GS and moved over to starting his own place ESL. </p>

<p>And view it this way, a good trader is going to get enough business that s/he won't have to move in the first place. Its not like banking where you do a stint and they send you off to business school. Profitable traders can't be easily replaced. Bankers are replacable when it comes to the junior ranks.</p>

16

<p>Do most people recruited to a prop trading desk after undergrad get sent to business school after a couple years?</p>

17

<p>no business school is a waste of time for traders they learn absolutely nothing in business school.</p>

<p>Ashok Varadhan became like the youngest MD at Goldman Sachs, that's the beauty of trading, if you excel you will fly through the ranks -- you don't need trivial graduate degrees to be promoted, you only need to generate returns.</p>

<p>hell, some 25 year olds on the prop trading desk might be pulling in 1 million a year, an MBA simply wouldn't make sense for them.</p>

18

<p>is pulling a million a year considered a lot?</p>

19

<p>A -25- year old making 1 million dollars a year is considered a lot to me.</p>

20

<p>untitled...do you think that that is not a lot?</p>