<p>Any insight into one or the other for engineering (prefers civil)? Looking for a uni to add to S3's list that we can afford (these we can). His reach is UofM (instate...even a reach i think for in-state kids with his GPA/test scores for COE) and he has two of the small LAC/engineering schools on his list...so need the financial safety. I have very little doubt he would be accepted to both Montana State and Utah. Personally he prefers the big to the "small." Vermont is on the list as his favorite, but I suspect that will cost us an arm and a leg and not looking for any 'other' unis to add, simply wondering if there are pros and cons to Montana State or Utah. Both will be a 2-plane trip, both will probably cost us about the same. Both have skiing (a wish list item). He's not terribly excited about heading west like his brothers but understands the "cost" factor. I like Utah, dad like Montana State :-) son has no opinion but there is that pesky factor of paying for college (and we are starting year 7 of college tuition payments with 5 more to go after taking a gigundo financial slam in 2008-2009.</p>
<p>Assume you’re talking about UUtah, not Utah State. Size of city/town is a big difference, is that important to him? I’d think it would be easier and cheaper to fly into SLC than Bozeman. I don’t know anything about their engineering, you might want to inquire on the Engineering major forum.</p>
<p>UUtah is now in the Pac 12 ;).</p>
<p>I don’t know much of anything about Montana State but there are a few things your son should know about the U. The most important would be that it is largely a commuter school. After freshman year, very very few students choose to remain on campus. This definitely does not help campus life or school spirit. The student body is fairly homogenous, most of the students are white. LDS students will be present, but certainly not the vast majority. SLC is a great place to live, and the U is situated in a pretty nice part of the city. As far as skiing goes, it can’t be beat! The three big Park City skiing resorts (Park City, Deer Valley, Canyons) are only roughly half an hour away and there are several other resorts like Alta and Snowbird that are even closer. A lot of students at the U are very outdoorsy and chose the school for its close proximity to beautiful mountains. Pac 12 football games are great, and school spirit certainly comes out at the Rice Eccles stadium (just fyi if your son chooses to come to Utah, Eccles is a name he will come across time and time again! Practically every building in the state was funded by the Eccles family to some degree!) While I don’t know much about the engineering department, I do know several bright kids who are heading to the U to study engineering, so he’ll certainly have some smart classmates. I hope this helped in some way! I’m not a student at the U, but my high school sends about a third of our students there every year, so I’m pretty familiar with it!</p>
<p>Can’t tell you anything about MSU’s civil engineering program other than it’s ABET accredited and has excellent pass rate on the FE exam.</p>
<p>Bozeman is smaller town than SLC, close to the mountains. Bridger Bowl about 20 minutes from town. I’ve been to Bozeman several times in the past 5 years (but only in the summer) and really like the town. It has a funky-hip-artsy vibe to it with an underlay of cowboy. It’s a nice, not-too-expensive place to live. Lots of bike lanes (road bike mecca in the summer with several of Tour de France quality riders/ex-riders living there), a surprisingly good farmer’s market, a down town within walking distance of campus with plenty of coffeeshops and a brewpubs. Bozeman has a fairly new medical clinic complex and new state of the art regional hospital. MSU students are laid back and definitely not commuters.</p>
<p>^^ And if that doesn’t convince him, you can remind him that Bozeman is (or will be–tenses are so inadquate for discussing time travel issues…) the site of first contact with the Vulcans. And that Efrem Cochrane and Lilly Sloan will design, build and launch the first warp-capable space vessel from Bozeman (presumably via MSU’s engineering dept).</p>
<p>Sounds like we need to go visit Bozeman…S3’s main negative about Utah is that he doesn’t like “cities” and while the campus is technically on the edge of town he just really doesn’t like “cities”. he has visited SLC and Utah because his older brother considered it years ago. This is the one whose arm we have to twist to go spend a weekend in Chicago.</p>
<p>If your son doesn’t like cities, he will feel right at home in Bozeman. In fact, anywhere in Montana. The highest building in the state is 14 stories. </p>
<p>I second wayoutwest’s mom in saying MSU is certainly not a commuter school. And, I don’t know whether that makes a difference or not, its student body is overwhelmingly white. (Kind of freaked my son, who as a caucasian was very much the minority in his high school.) But the school does have some regional diversity - OOS students from as far east as Vermont to as far west as San Francisco.</p>
<p>We visited MSU and UM in April. I’ll write up a visit report here on CC so you can read my impressions, though not from an enginering standpoint.</p>
<p>The U has great engineering programs, but so do many other large public universities! I will echo what lauren926 mentioned - the U is a commuter school and there is not a sense of community, even in the Greek System.</p>
<p>I graduated from the U many years ago and I really did not leave with the “college experience” that many of my friends talk about. I moved here from the southeast to ski & climb (not LDS). The skiing is fantastic but to be honest I don’t think the trade off was worth it. I got a great education, had unbelievable access to professors, and was given research opportunities that are unheard of in other University systems. However, I often will tell people that both my sisters went to small LAC (Millsaps and Rhodes) and I am very jealous of their college experience.</p>
<p>I moved away for some time but am now back in SLC and the U really hasn’t changed - other than the President of the U having an affair with the wife of one of the Eccles and being asked to leave! The student body is very homogenous, heavily LDS, and largely non traditional. </p>
<p>I do think the U has great programs, however, I would not go again if I had the choice.</p>
<p>This does not answer your question, but have you looked into UNH? Might be an option for this slot on his list?</p>
<p>momofthreeboys, has your son considered U of Idaho. Not exactly sure about the quality of the engineering program but the size, cost and location would probably meet your Ss criteria. Moscow Idaho and neighboring Pullman Washington are similar in many aspects to Bozeman.</p>
<p>I know a few students who have attended Utahs dance program, which is very good. The university and SLC is heavily LDS.</p>
<p>He actually liked Boise State better than U of Idaho but I honestly don’t think it’s on his list anymore. At the time he dropped Boise State he really was dead set against heading west…but things change I’ll remind him about the blue turf and our budget (He’s a three letter athlete…one being football). He’s got good schools on his short list of 5 so far in state and in the east…but those western prices are so darn attractive and the quality of life is so good, for this kid parent choice is going to be to pick at least one school in the west. After spending a decade with a Fortune 50 company that was mostly engineering and several years in HR, I know it doesn’t matter so much where the degree came from, starting engineers sad to say are a commodity, and the salary band is narrow. Sorta like our budget ;-)</p>
<p>Re Montana State U:</p>
<p>I don’t know how smart your kid is, but be aware that there may not be a lot available for academically high end kid at MSU. I don’t know anything about engineering but I did study their math/physics offerings recently. Overall pretty meager beyond the basic stuff. For example, I was shocked to see that they offer no Real Analysis course, certainly not at the UG level, and didn’t see one at graduate level either. For comparison, DS just took a year long Real Analysis course as a sophomore at another school. </p>
<p>I personally know one quite bright kid who did some college math in HS and he just graduated from MSU in 3 years and never seemed like he got really challenged or academically engaged. I do know of lots of kids who attend there and they range from average to pretty bright (had to work at Calc AB type) but nothing beyond that. </p>
<p>Beyond the school, Bozeman is a cool town (although that’s speaking relative to stuff around it which is definitely not cool) and skiing is fabulous. Very homogeneous student body though, mostly MT kids who haven’t been out beyond the state much and hence tend pretty provincial.</p>
<p>A (civil) engineer who is very familiar with, and has hired a number of, graduates of the program told me that they’re good at doing what they’re told to do but that he can tell that they don’t have the math/physics background to have a good understanding of the issues at hand.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t really recommend it for OOS very bright kid. We did not encourage DS to attend, even with free tuition.</p>
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<p>“UofM” means what? University of Montana does not have an ABET-accredited civil engineering degree program.</p>
<p>Montana State University’s yearly cost of attendance is about $16,000 for residents, $29,000 for non-residents. Assuming you are a Montana resident, note that South Dakota State University’s non-resident cost is only about $16,000 per year.</p>
<p>If you are not a Montana resident, then other schools which may be affordable at list price if your budget is in the $29,000 per year range include Minnesota, Virginia Tech, NCSU, South Dakota School of Mining and Technology, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, University of North Dakota, North Dakota State, and University of Wyoming. Also consider other in-state public universities besides whatever “UofM” is.</p>
<p>I believe UofM means Michigan, as it’s a “reach” for most kids.</p>
<p>List of schools with civil engineering with yearly tuition $20,000 or less (total yearly cost of attendance probably up to about $35,000) for a Michigan resident:
[College</a> Navigator - Search Results](<a href=“College Navigator - Search Results”>College Navigator - Search Results)</p>
<p>List of schools with civil engineering with yearly tuition $15,000 or less (total yearly cost of attendance probably up to about $30,000) for a Michigan resident:
[College</a> Navigator - Search Results](<a href=“College Navigator - Search Results”>College Navigator - Search Results)</p>
<p>ucb, Montana State is pretty generous with FA for OOS students. My OOS son at MSU got a substantial scholarship, and he ain’t no scholar. (Got it mostly for pretty good test scores.) An OOS kid with high grades may very well pay less than at home, instate. </p>
<p>OTOH, what ihs76 wrote about MSU’s classes/grads sounds very interesting - good food for thought if you’re the parent of a high achieving student looking at MSU.</p>
<p>Utah is a research powerhouse but also a commuter school. MSU is very popular and well-regarded in my area but doesn’t offer the same kind of research intensity.
Math 381-82 is the undergraduate advanced calculus sequence.</p>
<p>Math 505 (PRINCIPLES OF MATHEMATICAL ANALYSIS) uses Pugh’s well-known text.</p>
<p>Math 547 continues with measure theory and 551 covers complex analysis.</p>
<p>No need to be shocked…</p>