<p>So.. it is absurd, eh? For a newbie-punk like u, copy and paste other related articles should just do the job. </p>
<p> I enjoyed reading laughlinks' article and appreciate his/her point of view. I have another point of view and since it's always best for both sides to be presented, I thought it worthwhile to write.</p>
<p>First of all, I WAS a princeton student. However, I decided to leave the university after my sophomore year. Part of the reason was the eating club system, particularly the selective club system.</p>
<p>The selective clubs have a tremendous impact at Princeton because, though they are just 5 of 13 clubs, usually about twice as many students try to get into them as can. So essentially a great number of students get 'rejected'. This came into play in different ways. First, even though the 'bicker' process officially starts late in the sophomore year, it starts earlier than that socially. Second, alot of students have serious self-esteem issues after getting rejected at clubs. I was trained as a peer-to-peer counselor during my sophomore year and this issue came up more than any other single issue in the meetings. Personally I decided to leave Princeton and spend some time abroad. But I heard of social splits and fights between members of my friends over the eating club issue. In fact, someone I knew (not so well) even killed himself, and I heard 'on the grapevine' that part of it had to do with being rejected by the selective clubs. Of course, you can't blame the clubs for that - I'm sure there were other much more serious issues, but I'm sure the selective 'bicker' process put a big additional strain on him.</p>
<p>For me, the club system at Princeton is a mistake - I felt it systematically split the class up (selective or non-selective) and that the selective clubs especially have a great price. It was one of the reasons I chose to leave the school; I just felt it was an unethical system. I don't oppose fraternities or sororities, by the way, which are really external organizations to universities. But the club system at Princeton is very tightly fused into the very fabric of the school and in my view damages as much as it helps, and an old medical motto is 'First do no harm.' I feel it fails in that regard, regardless of the benefits.</p>
<p>Best,
Another View</p>
<p> re: minorities, I just know that a good friend who was black didn't bicker and the rep was that most african americans didn't bicker, but I'm sure some do and I'm sure some do and get into the selective clubs. I remember examples.</p>
<p>re: why i didn't just go somewhere else to begin with, which someone brought up, when I applied to Princeton (Yes I did get into equally ranked or higher ranked schools believe it or not :-), I didn't realize how powerful and pervasive the eating club system was. it's something you don't feel until you are actually on campus.</p>
<p>In my social group, the guys with less self-esteem bickered. But in other social groups, almost everyone bickered. it depends on how you are situated. But it's a very dominant phenom on campus - are you going to try to get into a selective club and if so which? as I said, in my year about 2/3 tried and about half of those got rejected. In peer to peer counseling it just kept coming up again and again and again - and let me tell you - people were HURTING. They wouldn't show it on the 'street' but they were in serious pain inside. In my social group, the 'coolest' person was ethically against the selective clubs and in fact there was a fight between him and someone else about it. At the time, 3 of the selective clubs were 'all-guys' and he thought it was sexist besides being against the social selective process in general. I really admired that guy, he was supercool, smart, blah blah and could have gotten into Ivy and he thought it was all just a crock of ..., and he didn't want to hurt his friends or see them hurt by the process. A prince. Since then a woman bickered all 3 all-male clubs, got rejected, went to law school and SUED them to become co-ed, so now all clubs are co-ed. But she was roundly hated by the selective clubs during her tenure and after.</p>
<p>I'm actually socially CONSERVATIVE, by the way. I'm not a liberal. I like George W. Bush and Condee Rice. But I think the selective clubs are damaging emotionally to a substantial part of the student body. As a roommate of mine put it (who got into a selective club) - 'Its a DOG EAT DOG world out there - if I were born in Russia during the USSR, I'd be a card-carrying Communist'. Sure, in a sense he's right, it is survival of the fittest out there. I just hate to see 'survival of the socially fittest' as a social value at a leading institution like Princeton. Sort of defeats the higher purposes of this country.</p>
<p>Again, just my 2 cents, it's people's RIGHT to have these places, but it's not morally right (and I'm not sure it should be an embedded right at Princeton unless the majority support it, in which case, what can you do? Go to yale ...). Kind of like gossiping about your wife behind her back. Hey we all deserve freedom of speech, but when it hurts others (and they have the right to say BAD things about bickerees at some of the selective clubs, by the way, while their pictures are on the wall in front of the whole club) - when it hurts others, it ought to be seriously reconsidered. There are plenty of ways to have fun in this world without adding to the injury of our fellows. Again, first do no harm. If your parties suffer a little, it's worth it! Life isn't just about this world, but the next ...</p>
<p>BEST WISHES in your decisions,
Another view (an old ex-Princetonian)</p>
<p> response </p>
<hr>
<p>Glad to hear your post, good luck to your daughter!
yeh, the residential college system was in place, but half of my RA group was figuring out how to bicker by the 2nd half of freshman year... it was like a social-survival TV Show over there. I asked to transfer to another college where I had a group of friends who weren't so into the clubs, but the university rejected me, saying you had to have 'medical reasons' to transfer colleges. If they had said 'yes' and I had been able to transfer with these other friends, I may have felt more insulated from the 'social wars' and stayed. I don't know ...</p>
<p>I did go back to visit princeton once. It was during a conference when I was an upperclassman somewhere else. beautiful place, truly, but I still had negative feelings because of the clubs, and especially because of the suicide of the acquaintance I had. That really did it for me. When I heard about that (I was abroad at the time) I just couldn't go back. He was a nice guy and I met him during Cane Spree athletic competitions between freshman and sophomores. I didn't know him well, but I felt we had a connection because we'd competed, and I really really felt for him and for his family.</p>
<p>My best friend in the world finished princeton and the clubs didn't affect him either (like you). he was very involved in various causes and extracurrics that were important to him and managed to rise above it. I guess I am just more of a sensitive soul than he is about these types of things. He's sort of the 'invincible type'.</p>
<p>Again, best wishes to your daughter and hope she has a great time!
anotherview</p>
<p>Now go back to your little dark corner and finish your curds before I whack u with my magic cane. Moron</p>