More Changes to the Honors Program and the Retirement of Tulane Scholars (In Name Only).

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tulane University
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There is another important step in the evolution of the Honors Program (HP) taking place this fall. Before going into that, let me give a very brief history to date so there is context. Let me say right up front that any student in Tulane Scholars now will have all promises made to them at the time they joined kept. However, I don’t see how these changes really affect them much anyway, other than current freshman being expected to mentor next year’s freshmen. I am not sure that was part of the original plan. Perhaps it was.

What is clear is that Tulane, with the strong support of President Fitts, is creating a very unique program with amazing opportunities for those students that have strong academic aspirations for their undergraduate career and probably beyond. Tulane is in some ways uniquely able to offer this due to its strong focus on undergraduate education combined with top level research going on every day. IMO, this is clearly the next logical step.

The Honors Program Until Now

When I was at Tulane in the 1970’s, there was no “Honors Program”. There were honors level courses that anyone could take, but they had no impact beyond the student’s own enjoyment of taking a course that was taught at a higher level. For example, honors chemistry was completely different than regular freshman chemistry. 12 students vs. 100, a different professor teaching their specialty in 5-6 week segments vs, one prof for the entire year, and one 8 hour lab on Wednesday afternoons vs. a 2 hour lab once a week.

I am not sure when the HP as a program really got started, but let’s pick it up right after Katrina. At that point, even though there was a now a named formal program and it had some “perks” such as early registration (probably the most valuable perk), priority for housing in Butler, the quietest dorm for those who wanted that, and some additional advising opportunities, there were really not that many honors courses and while HP students had priority, any student could take those courses as well. In other words the program was not what I would call robust.

While it isn’t at all part of this program, it is worth mentioning that in Fall 2009 the first cohort of the Newcomb Scholars Program was formed. I bring this up because it has some similar characteristics to the Tulane Scholars program I am about to mention, and what is now the HP. Newcomb Scholars, once they are in, are required to take some seminar courses during their tenure in the program, and to complete a research project.

Two years ago, Tulane Scholars (TS) as a subset of the HP was announced. The idea was that those students who applied to and were accepted to TS were those most focused on academics for the sake of academics, be it because they envisioned a career in academics, going to grad school for a Ph.D., just because they liked the idea of the challenges involved, or some combination of these factors. Up to this time graduating with Latin Honors (summa cum laude, etc.) required being in the HP and doing a senior thesis. Now (and continuing into this new phase) achieving these Latin honors is solely dependent on cumulative GPA, whether in any of these programs or not.

The Honors Program as of Fall 2016

In an effort to ensure the program is a completely coherent one entirely of substance, the HP as what I would call an “ego boost” but not offering a lot in terms of real academic meat is no longer going to exist. What will exist in substance is what is now called the TS program, but the decision was made to retain the HP name and not use TS. To me, that is not what is important. What is important is how the program will be administered.

  1. All students invited to the HP will be expected to take a course offered by the HP. This 3 credit course will replace the TIDES requirement for entering freshmen. To be clear, however, if a student wants to take a one hour TIDES course that they think will be just for fun, as many of them are, they are still welcome to do so. But, if a student chooses not to take the HP course, they will be considered to have declined participation in the HP. In this sense it is somewhat like the Newcomb Scholars program I mentioned, and it is very much like agreeing to be in the Altman Program or other programs that have definite requirements in order to remain in it. The same holds true for second semester freshman year. If a student that took the course first semester chooses not to take the second semester course, they will be considered to have decided not to pursue the HP.

The emphasis will be to have students take the first semester course and then decide what they want to do going forward. Some will no doubt drop out of the program and that is expected. In the end there should be a very healthy cohort that will then all be together in Weatherhead dorm (SoHo) sophomore year.

  1. Wall is now the preferred freshman residence hall for HP students, a welcome change from Butler IMO. Whether or not an HP student lives in Wall, however, they will be required to participate in "Wall Societies". This is not new, from what I understand, but is a carryover from a program in Butler. Past Societies have hooked up small groups with faculty members and gone off campus to explore local and regional issues relevant to the New Orleans community, and give students additional opportunities for leadership and innovation in the local community.
  2. To remain in the program, besides taking one of the required courses each semester, a student must have a 3.6 during freshman and sophomore year, and a 3.8 by the end of sophomore year and beyond.
  3. A variety of other benefits such as seminars for HP only, trips to cultural events with experts in those areas to lead further discussions, etc. Of course the benefits of special research opportunities and internships remain at the core of the program.
  4. A senior honors thesis must be completed.

I am sure there are a million questions and things that I did not address that I might have answers to, or I might not but could likely obtain them. Of course for those of you attending Top Scholars weekend there will be an opportunity to ask about this as well.

IMO, this is a very nice step further in the right direction, and I think the speed at which it happened considering TS was only introduced two years ago is a reflection of the vision of the current program head, Tom Luongo, and is also likely related to Mike Fitts being the new president. In any case, it is good to see a much easier to understand, unified program and not the “empty suit” the old HP mostly was. Not to be too harsh about it, but it really didn’t have a lot of punch. This has much more going for it, and much more room to grow naturally.

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3.6 and then 3.8? Ouch.

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3.8 has been the usual minimum level to be magna cum laude since they changed to the new system, with 3.9 being the minimum for summa cum laude. I believe that GPA of 3.8+ represents about 15% of a typical graduating class, which seems about right for expectations for an Honors designation.

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If I understand correctly, a student will be kicked out of the Honors Program if they do not have a 3.6 then a 3.8?

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My guess is that if they are close, they would probably be given a chance to get it to the needed level. It would be a judgement call by the HP admins. That is typically how I have seen Tulane and many other schools handle such situations. They really are there to help students succeed. But of course, every program needs standards if they are to mean anything.

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IMO this move has as many potential pitfalls as it does benefits. A university of Tulane’s caliber runs the risk of alienating a large set of extraordinary students by excluding them from designations like “honors” and subordinating their registration and housing choices to a select group of students who (by Tulane’s standards) will already be recognized with honors designations (Summa and Magna Cum Laude) at graduation. Beyond that, I fear that a broad application of GPA standards to remain in the program could be problematic - are all majors and colleges at Tulane graded on the same scales? That is, do Chemical Engineering students average the same GPA as students majoring in a foreign language or the arts? I am certainly not disparaging any course of study, but my own college experience was that certain areas of study were graded more harshly than others. I thought that admittance to Tulane’s honors program was more of a reflection of work done prior to college, certainly with the expectation that the student’s intellectual curiosity and drive would continue.

But those GPA standards are very high and could unintentionally cause exceptional students to shy away from taking academic chances. Few students in the program would risk taking a course outside of their skill set if doing so was at the risk of losing that honor status. Perhaps in the near future, Tulane, like some other top tier universities, will recognize that all of their students are exceptional and will no longer feel the need to classify some as more exceptional than others. I understand it is a kind of incentive for some students invited into the program, but it comes at a cost.

My daughter was offered the Distinguished Scholar award so I offer these comments in that context. My daughter received a very generous merit award as part of her acceptance, but did not receive an invitation to the Honors Program. For a student of her abilities and potential, the idea of feeling like a second class student at Tulane is now weighing heavily on her decision process. This is unfortunate because Tulane is an extraordinary place with unlimited options. But I certainly understand my daughter’s dilemma. I suspect that this notion of status may well result in her matriculating at a college where she is not relegated to second tier in terms of registering for courses, housing and graduation honors.

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Hi @FriendofMax. You bring up some very valid points, I see 3 in total. One I agree with as an issue but do not know how to address it, one I disagree with somewhat, and the other is an issue that is addressed in the web page write up for the HP but I am embarrassed I didn’t think to address it above.

The one I agree with is that some majors really are harder to get A’s in consistently than others. Maybe some disagree with this, but I think both the data (average GPA per major) and just experience says this is correct. However, what is to be done about it? It would look extremely odd for any school to say “we will say that summa and magna is 3.9/3/8 for all majors except engineering, chemistry and physics, where we will lower it 0.2”. I am sure there are other majors that could be included, some with different adjustment factors. It is just impossible. So the same would apply for HP retention. And an ameliorating factor is that all departments grade on a curve. Now whether that has enough of an effect to totally balance out the reality of what we are talking about I don’t know, but I think not quite. But I also think it does enough to make it not as huge an issue as it would be otherwise.

I would also point out that many, if not most, schools do their designations for Latin honors by GPA, so Tulane really joined the mainstream by doing it this way. Since the switch, there certainly has been a large group from the School of Science and Engineering that have earned magna and summa designations, not to mention going on to top med schools, etc. Also keep in mind that being in the HP is certainly not a requirement for doing research at Tulane. There will be no stigma when asking a professor to join the research team to not being in the program. I am 100% sure of that. There are various reasons one might choose not to be in HP that have nothing to do with GPA. I also don’t think that maintaining for the HP would ever dictate someones choice of major or similar academic choices. Nice as I think the program will be for the right people, I don’t think it will have that kind of sway in the decision making.

Which brings me nicely to the second point, and the one I disagree with in part. That is where you say that Tulane

The point of the program is not to confer an honorific upon these students, but to provide opportunities and pathways that their academic record to date indicates they would be both interested in and most capable of handling. Those of us that have been following Tulane closely for years know that every year there is a large group of extra serious, non-party type students that are concerned about going to Tulane for various reasons, and not just the party reputation per se but also that they will have trouble finding others like them. Hundreds of them, every year. I know Tulane is not unique in this regard, but it might be more exaggerated at Tulane than most. And those of us experienced with this tell them not to worry, there is a large “extra” intellectual cohort at Tulane and those that also don’t like to party, or at least party hard, will find each other. And they usually do, but this kind of program makes it much easier for them, just as frats make it easier for like-minded people to find each other. I wonder how much grief I will take for that last example?? And yes, people worry that being non-Greek will make them feel like an outsider, but at Tulane at least that is never true, partly because Greek life doesn’t dominate and partly because that just isn’t how Tulane is. Similarly, since these students are not segregated on a class by class basis except for one 3 hour course they take, it won’t be obvious who is who. So for the above reasons, I am not in the least concerned about this kind of “us vs. them” issue arising. I would also remind you that it is expected that about half the students eligible for the program will choose to not participate, for any number of reasons. Certainly not every HP member in the past 2 years applied to be in Tulane Scholars. If the prestige and cache´ of being in this program are so huge, this wouldn’t happen.

Also, and it again brings me nicely to the last point. It is not entirely based on what you did in high school. A person can join the program after freshman year.

So if this important enough to some students they can earn their way in. Your D, for example, would then be able to join the rest of the program in Weatherhead for her sophomore year housing, and she would be on track for Latin Honors by definition. But in no way should she feel like a second class citizen. I just don’t think that is the right way to look at it. It is aspirational, not punitive or shaming of others. Otherwise, how could there be programs like Newcomb Scholars or Altman Scholars or other programs that by necessity are restrictive in numbers, and therefore have certain parameters associated with them? There couldn’t, and that would be a huge loss to those that have interests and aspirations in a particular area, be it as narrow as one major or as broad as just generally focusing on the highest levels of academic achievement.

It’s not perfect in capturing every student that might be able to take advantage of what it offers, for sure. No program can be. That is why there is a path to opt in with the right credentials. We can’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

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I find I’m having a strong, negative reaction to the GPA requirement, as a parent of an accepted student for 2016, invited to Honors at TU.

She’s the kind of kid who would want to be in Honors, would probably insist on it. But, I don’t relish the idea of putting her in a pressure cooker environment. The anxiety over grades and always feeling like you’re not perfect enough? So not into that as a path to good mental health and living a meaningful life. High school was so out of balance, and I don’t want more of the same for her at university.

Thank you (sincerely) for updating the forum on upcoming changes to the HP program.

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@Midwest67
I would just point out that these are the same requirements to graduate with Latin Honors at Duke, Vanderbilt, etc. I think the reality “on the ground”, now that they are in college, is usually not as great as you might think. There are exceptions, such as those that are determined to go to Harvard Law or Columbia Med, etc. But they put pressure on themselves. Or have parents that put on the pressure to graduate summa and Phi Beta Kappa. But there certainly is no pressure from other students, or to be in the HP, or from faculty for that matter. It is college, the students are responsible for themselves. The HP is an additional benefit for some, but it doesn’t take anything away, like the ability to do research.

And let me reemphasize a point that perhaps I did not make clear. The GPA for Latin recognition is completely outside of the Honors Program. Anyone with those grades will be so recognized. And it is the most common method of awarding those honors as far as I know.

Let me put it another way. The summa cum laude designation represents 5% of the class, and magna cum laude represents the next 10%, or 15% in total. So unless you are in favor of doing away with these traditions that have been around for hundreds of years to recognize excellence, I am not sure how else you would do it. I don’t want this thread degenerating into an argument over the “every kid gets an award or else no kid gets an award” issue, so we will just have to accept for these purposes that recognition of the top academics and many other areas such as service, leadership, athletics, etc. do exist and therefore there has to be a mechanism for selection. That argument has been had elsewhere on this site and can be renewed in the proper forum.

But as I said, the main purpose of the HP is to give those students who are looking at certain goals, be they extraordinary post-undergrad scholarships and fellowships such as Rhodes and Fulbrights, a leg up on an academic career, both, or some other goals, to give those students an excellent pathway to reach those goals that is not available at most other schools. This is innovative and designed to meet and exceed the needs of said students, just as the Altman is an extraordinary program to meet and exceed the expectations of those students looking for a career in International Relations. I don’t think anyone would argue that Tulane should get rid of that program just because it is limited to about 15 students per year that have certain talents and qualities. And as far as I know, there is no way to opt into that program after freshman year. One of the things that makes a great university great is that it has the programs and resources to offer many different students many different options. Just because real life gets in the way by limiting resources doesn’t mean that things should not be done at all.

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FYI, here is Vandy’s Latin Honors requirements

http://as.vanderbilt.edu/oas/academicpolicies/honors/ Same as Tulane’s except Tulane is 5/10/10

Duke:

https://registrar.duke.edu/student-records/academic-recognition-and-honors Take a look at their GPAs to qualify!! 3.934 to be in the top 5% of their Trinity College, the largest. 3.854 to be [magna cum laude*. Very similar for their Pratt College, which is their engineering school. The difference is very small, so maybe that somewhat addresses the concerns of @FriendofMax above.

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Thank you for your thoughtful reply @fallenchemist. Your coherent, caring and insightful writing on these boards is very helpful and you certainly are a powerful advocate for Tulane. I appreciate all that you point out and agree with your take on the Latin awards at graduation. But to be clear, Latin honors are assigned at the end of 4 years and not upon admission.

And I must disagree with you regarding the 2nd class feeling that might follow exclusion from the HP. If selection to HP upon admission affords a student special rights and privileges (early registration, special class and living arrangements) then it necessarily follows that other students will have diminished access, however temporary or fixable in their 2nd year. The notion that HP students benefit because like-minded, intellectually inclined students will be more accessible to each other implies that my daughter (intellectually motivated but not an HP candidate) will have to work harder to find and engage that cohort. I think it is a mistake to claim that HP students benefit from the program, while denying that a consequence of those conferred benefits is a lower status among other students. Perhaps stigma is too strong a word, but with early registration and special housing, I find it difficult to believe that the HP students are not a recognized, however subtly, special group.

I admit that I am biased and might see things differently had my daughter been offered a scholarship in the next higher group. She has been admitted to honors colleges at other universities, but the odd feeling of something caste-related still permeates her thinking with those programs. It raises the question of why the top LACs and Ivies do not make such designations (as far as I am aware). Certainly there are subgroups of students at Penn, Cornell, Bowdoin, Colgate, etc., who lean towards partying and others who spend their spare time in research labs. I am concerned that this kind of designation means that Tulane feels the need to append this special status to its top applicants in order to entice them away from other top schools. This disappoints me in ways that I am having trouble articulating.

The good thing is that the decision of where to matriculate is not mine. And I’m sure Tulane is big enough for my daughter to thrive. But the fact that others in her class start with a “leg up” is unsettling. Thanks again for your input. We plan to visit New Orleans in about a month and I am very hopeful that my daughter falls back in love with Tulane.

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I have no argument with the GPA requirements for Latin recognition.

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@FriendofMax I’m having a hard time articulating my disappointment as well.

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I guess I am having a hard time understanding what you think has changed that is negative. Tulane has had the Honors Program for some years now and those students always got priority registration and separate housing, albeit the housing used to be Butler. The GPA requirement for HP, even though it wasn’t as robust a program, was identical at least as far back as 2009 when my D entered. And Tulane Scholars, which was only here for 2 years in the form it took, was even more selective. None of this seems to have caused a “class/caste riff”. This move actually broadens the program by giving all HP invitees, which are at the same numbers as before, the chance to participate in TS level activities, and makes it their choice.

And to address those like @FriendofMax’s D who no doubt just missed being invited, there is an earn-in method. In fact, while I certainly cannot speak for the HP people, the old HP also said that student’s could request to come in after one year, but I know that they would take some after one semester. I strongly suspect those were students who also just missed being invited right out of high school and then did great first semester. It wouldn’t shock me at all to see the same for the revised program. I can tell you with the highest of confidence that the attitude is to be as open and helpful to ALL students’ success as possible, not shut them out. But the program does have to have standards and parameters to mean anything.

So glass more than half full. Be glad these things are there for Tulane students, and that any and all can aspire to take advantage of these limited resources (I have to keep emphasizing that, because this couldn’t possibly work as hoped if 500+ students in each class were involved). They didn’t design this program in a vacuum, it works for Tulane given the general makeup of the incoming classes each year. If all 1600 Tulane incoming students had these kinds of credentials and goals, then of course this program would make no sense and Tulane would be a different kind of school and handle things differently.

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@fallenchemist We had not looked into the nitty gritty details of Honors at TU as we are waiting to hear on the PT award and waiting to see if we visit for Top Scholars Weekend.

When I read your OP, I got the impression the high GPA requirements to remain in Honors was one of the new changes to the program. Thank you for clarifying.

I went to the web site for Honors, and there it is! Obviously, TU doesn’t think this is hurting their yield?

Backing up a bit, in regards to Honors programs in general and perks, in our case we are being drawn like moths to a flame by big merit money and offers of a place in Honors + perks.

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Well, there is always the factor that by making the school better it helps in admissions. I wouldn’t even know where to begin to disentangle the two, except to say that I feel pretty confident that programs like the HP, Newcomb Scholars, and Altman Scholars were implemented to provide a richer educational experience for students that are attracted to whatever it is they bring a high level focus. To whatever extent the presence of those programs convinces a student to attend Tulane and not WUSTL or Vandy or Miami, etc. that is all part of it as well. One is part and parcel of the other. Merit money, OTOH, is clearly a recruiting tool, pure and simple.

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My son declined the Honors Program as he really didn’t see any benefit to HIM. There aren’t separate honors classes in courses he needs (like an AP program works in HS). He had no intention of living in Butler and I am curious to see if the change to Wall attracts more students to Honors Housing. He has never had any issues registering, although he did transfer in almost a years worth of credits from AP and Young Scholars so that did put him ahead credit wise. NO one talks about being in Honors or not, it’s not something that comes up on a day to day basis. And non-honors students can live in Wall as well and Honors students can choose to live in other dorms. There really is no segregation. It’s not like HP students are kept in an Ivy tower and catered to in special ways. The benefits afforded them are more subtle and personal. The Honors program where I work is very similar except that you have to apply to it and be interviewed and there are a limited number of students selected each year.

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The GPA requirement felt “new” to me as well. I feel like the wait is killing me right now. Without an award, it is all moot anyway–but I do worry that D16 won’t manage a 3.8 in college.

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I should have quoted Tulane’s page while I was doing the others for comparisons,

http://honors.tulane.edu/web/default.asp?id=ProgramRequirements

So I was a bit off above when I said Tulane was 5/10/10, they recognize 5/10/15. The point is 15% of the class will be in that GPA range. I have to think it doesn’t vary much year to year.

All I can tell you is that with strong discipline to get all the work done and study for the exams on a consistent basis instead of cramming, a student with the intelligence and desire to do well can get that GPA. After all, most of them already showed those traits, including the study habits, in order to have been invited to the HP to begin with. Same applies to those that were very close; hopefully they will be even more motivated.

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FC
What is this New System you reference in the third post of this topic? (relative to gpa)

As a commemt- it Seems a bit weird that they state top 5%/10%/15% for the three Latin awards, yet reference the previous years graduating class gpa’s to determine the top percentiles for the current class? Why not use the real percentiles translated from gpa for the actual current graduates? After all, they need final grades for a final gpa anyways. Am I missing something?

Also, has Summa always indicated top 5%? Something seems off for the gpa’ss to be so high. I was lucky to graduate Summa back in the late 80’s from Tufts where I believe the cutoff was about 3.6 or 3.65 for Summa, 3.5 for magna and about 3.3 or 3.4 for cum Laude. Rising almost a complete half letter grade seems like a lot. That is unless gpa’s are now inflated like both the Sat (150ish points out of 2600) and Act (2 points) vs 30 years ago?