More College Ranking Lists

Colleges and Universities A-Z Colgate University
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<p>We can't seem to get enough of people telling us what rank every college deserves to be at. Is this because we can't think for ourselves, because we want so-called "experts" to tell us where every school deserves to be ranked? I've never quite understood why this makes any sense. I can understand that some cars are better than other cars, but would we rank them as #1 car, #2 car . . . ? I like food Do I have a #1 food? I don't think so. Do I have a #1 friend and a #9 friend? There's something about rankings that seems so "official" and organized and scientific that we don't have to do so much thinking or investigating for ourselves. "Best refrigerator," "best city to retire in," "best college." Really? Who thinks like this except truly lazy people? </p>

<p>How in the world can anyone think that this college is the "best" but that other college that you liked even more isn't? What if I love college #26 but hate college #9? Am I making a terrible mistake by turning down Swarthmore for Bucknell which I like much better? If I turn down Harvard AND Yale AND Princeton (What a cool thing to do!) because I've decided I much prefer to go to Bowdoin or Kenyon or some other small rural school, am I doomed to a miserable life of regrets? </p>

<p>I really think rankings have addled our brains. I'm not saying that schools listed near the top aren't the "best" schools. I'm just asking what that means. "Best" at what? Many of my students (I'm a high school teacher) who attend Harvard (not to pick on dear old Harvard) say that they have a lot of teaching assistants. Is that really good? Students at Yale tell me they have more than a few large lecture classes. Is that what I want for my education -- to sit in large lecture halls and be anonymous or to be taught in once-a-week discussions, not by the professor, but by 24 year old grad students who aren't so good at teaching (yet). </p>

<p>The college lists everyone looks at suffer from a number of problems. One of them is that they aggregates many disparate elements, some of which seem scientific but might not be of much importance, really. Or they might not even matter to most of us. While there are no points for friendliness or campus beauty or enthusiasm (as far as I can tell) colleges get big points for things like the size of their libraries, their endowment, and what other administrators at other colleges think of them. </p>

<p>This last item has always bothered me a lot. Isn't that how "popular" a college is to other colleges? It's always seemed to me like those high school popularity polls. Remember them-- "most liked student," "most likely to succeed." Is that what these lists come down to? Colleges and universities that other colleges are a little envious of are awarded extra points? How does this make sense? </p>

<p>Size of library? I challenge anyone to convince me that a university with a library with 5 million volumes is substantially better at educating its students than a university that manages to struggle along with "only" one million volumes in its enormous library. Yes, libraries should count, but couldn't we count number of volumes as a minor factor when it's above a certain number of millions of volumes? After all, Harvard itself was founded with the donation of a few thousand volumes in 1630. Was it just a really lousy college until it reach the first 100 million volumes? </p>

<p>Endowment -- important. But how does an extra billion or two make the life of each student better? Would I really be any less happy or less well educated at a college with an endowment of "only" one billion dollars compared to a friend attending a college with ten billions dollars? Is he really getting an education that is any better than I'm getting? What is he getting, then? And yet these are the sorts of figures that the U.S. News college rankings are made up of. </p>

<p>And they lead to cheating. We've all heard of the "top" colleges that lied about their admissions stats or gamed their reporting of SAT scores. How reliable are any of these statistics then? Isn't it likely that even more colleges and universities are shading the truth on their numbers? Why should I take anything seriously when colleges that lie are compared to colleges that are honest? I'm just not convinced I should take them seriously. And then when the inaccurate stats are revealed, wouldn't you expect that that college would drop in the rankings -- or even be excluded? No and no. A bit odd, don't you think. </p>

<p>To me, any college or university among the Top 50 or so is an excellent one and any student should feel free to choose the ones that appeal to them most, largely ignoring the number that U.S. News, or anyone, assigns them. No, #4 is not "better" than #12 unless it's better to you for particular reasons that appeal to you. What's the #1 novel according to the experts on literature? Let me know so I can read that and not waste my time on #22 which I might love much more. I think people should largely ignore the rankings for their own sake. </p>

<p>Forbes Magazine has a college list which puts both large universities and small liberal arts colleges together and evaluates (ranks) them according to their long-term "value" (it's a business magazine so they're stuck with this way of thinking, I suppose). In the Forbes list, Colgate gets something like #48. That's not bad since the list includes lots of more "efficient" large universities (is this like comparing small businesses with mega-corporations -- which do you think Forbes is going to prefer?). But if you only consider the small liberal arts colleges in the Forbes list, omitting the Michigans and Berkeleys and Harvards with enormous grad schools, Colgate ranks around #22 or so. Much better.</p>

<p>Another list published by who knows who, but called "The Best Colleges," ranks Colgate #17. But they also include large universities and small colleges together which is a little like ranking cars and trucks together or evaluating best small towns against best cities. On this list, though, among liberal arts colleges only, Colgate comes out something like #5 or #6. So this list is now my favorite list. Go, "Best Colleges" list! Whoever you are. </p>

<p>I haven't got the slightest idea who publishes The Best Colleges or whether I should take them seriously or not. It's probably published by some crackpots somewhere using a system that makes sense only to them. Maybe it's even published by Colgate grads? Woohoo! </p>

<p>One year, U.S. News ranked Caltech as the #1 college or university in America. Then, maybe after considering that most people who worked at U.S. News had not attended CalTech, that school never appeared in the Top Five again. But Harvard and Yale and Princeton did. Every single year. Forever. East Coast bias? What colleges did U.S. News editors attend. I wonder . . . A Bit Odd. </p>

<p>What I'd like to see is a list which makes much less effort to rank colleges by size of libraries (Really, how many books are you going to read in four years? A million?) or total endowment, but includes the beauty of the campus and how nice the students are, whether students end up in lifelong satisfying careers, or even whether or not they received an excellent well-rounded education. How's that for an idea? How about a college list that asks students what they thought of their education--years later. Nah! That would take too much time. We can't afford that sort of useful nonsense. Let's just count volumes in the library and ask everyone which other colleges they're most envious of. That's the kind of list everyone wants. </p>

<p>Clearly, any list that considers those kind of subjectives can't be very objective, though, can it?</p>

<p>I'm Colgate Class of '70, if that matters to anyone.</p>

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<p>And, to reply to my own posting, which must break some rule, the college “rankings” I think are best are in those long, detailed books which includes 100, 200, or 300 “best colleges,” each described with lots of statistics. In other words, books which don’t list but which require that you read and think. Let’s hear it for that.</p>

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<p>[“Playing</a> With Numbers” by Nicholas Thompson](<a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2000/0009.thompson.html]"Playing”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2000/0009.thompson.html)</p>

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<p>[The</a> University of Chicago Magazine: October 2001, Features](<a href=“http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0110/features/abuse.html]The”>The University of Chicago Magazine: October 2001, Features)</p>

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<p>Great thread ColgateDad.</p>

<p>Unfortunately even if prospective students realize the flaws in the rankings, many still follow them. Some companies only intern or hire from the higher ranked schools and certain undergrduate schools are given greater weight in graduate school admissions. ( Although they deny this). So more students apply to the higher ranked schools. It is a selfulfilling circle. </p>

<p>Bucknell had an interesting event related to this topic but resulted in an unexpected end:
[Bucknell</a> Receives Donation After S.A.T. Flap | WNEP.com](<a href=“http://wnep.com/2013/02/12/bucknell-receives-big-donation-during-inflation-scandal/]Bucknell”>Bucknell Receives Donation After S.A.T. Flap | wnep.com)</p>

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<p>This is a tough topic to discuss: There some 3,000 colleges in the US, most saying they are the “Best” for your college education. As a competitive culture, we use tools to evaluate and compare …and look to “Experts” to rank and define everything we might purchase…which includes college. Like it or not, people need these tools to make such an important decision that, next to a home purchase, can be the most expensive investment a family can make. This has created a questionable recruiting culture where some schools have fudged their admissions data, reporting false numbers to US News and World Report in order to “Game” their rankings. Even when admission and correction is proffered by a school, for some schools (i.e. Iona College), it resulted in a big drop in rankings until accurate info was provided. For major schools (Emery) there was no effect on the ranking, so we might assume some bias and favoritism for the bigger, elite schools.
Look at any college site on-line and it is a colorful marketing tool to “Sell” the school to potential buyers…like anything else in our society…
And, like anything in our society, we have many choices and often seek help to make a good choice. College is no different. What country in the world has 3,000 schools (big, small, public, private, specialized, etc.) to choose from? College books and USN&WR serve a need and a demand.</p>

<p>There are many fine schools, Colgate is one of them…but what makes Colgate better than (or not as good as) a Bucknell? Lafayette? Lehigh? Holy Cross? Davidson? How does one compare a top, small private college to a large, well financed State school? A guide book can talk about details, but we all want to know how does A compare to B. At least USN&WR puts schools in different categories to reflect their comparative size and resources.</p>

<p>Selecting a school is really about which school is best for you and not which is best according to some ranking methodology. First, a student must know their stats and which schools they are an academic fit for: you don’t apply to the Ivies (or Patriot League) with low SATs and a 2.5 GPA…but there are many schools where such stats are accepted. Then, there is cost: what can a family afford? how much aid will be given? how much of a loan can be taken on? Then there is the fit: does the student love the school? love the location? the feeling? or does a kid have an attraction to a school based on reputation or sports fame?</p>

<p>So, do we need rankings to help start the process of considering the 3,000 schools? as flawed as they may be, we do. Do we base a decision on the rankings? I would hope not; selecting a college is very personal and so many factors have to be considered.</p>

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<p>Colgatedad,</p>

<p>What you may not realize when you say “In other words, books which don’t list”, by virtue that these books tend to be a “BEST” college guide, they do, in effect, list; they list the top 200 or 300 colleges academically, or top 10%. That the Princeton, NY Times, Fiske, Yale etc. guides select the “TOP” 200/300 schools out of 3,000 is a ranking of sorts. It is no coincidence that almost all of the schools listed tend to be the top 200/300 schools in USN&WR. Now, I agree that within those 200/300 there is no numerical order, but most if not all books provide “Ratings”, usually in the form of stars (1-4) for academics, quality of life, professors, etc. so as such still get into relative ratings/rankings. Again, giving people what they want: a tool to compare and rate A to B.</p>

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<p>I’m positive that rankings based on criteria such as “the beauty of the campus and how nice the students are, whether students end up in lifelong satisfying careers, or even whether or not they received an excellent well-rounded education” do exist. The Princeton Review’s rankings are based on student surveys so you’re actually seeing a reflection of people’s satisfaction with intangible factors such as those - especially rankings representing beautiful colleges seem to be everywhere, not just at PR.</p>

<p>Of course, I too share your concern of the prioritization of rankings by prospies in the factors used to choose a college to attend. However I do not think it fair to attack the type of education given at Yale or Harvard as opposed to Williams or Colgate. Sure, teaching fellows are everywhere at those gigantic schools and many people would probably prefer the closely-knit classroom environment at Williams but I think this is a personal choice and probably doesn’t hurt those who attend, well, Yale because they are very self-motivated kids (their admission to such a competitive institution itself would warrant the legitimacy of such a generalization) and will and can learn the material themselves (especially intro-level classes) with discussions with similarly intelligent friends to gain a good understanding of the material. Of course, classes do become smaller as students take upper-level classes (for their major) so they do get the small classrooms then? It’s really about how much hand-holding you need - not saying it’s a bad thing but rather a personal choice.</p>

<p>In terms of the endowment you would find that it does matter but on a per capita basis. Students would probably find it much more difficult to secure institutional funding to facilitate internships and such at Kenyon, with its meagre endowment, for instance, as opposed to Grinnell that can and often does literally fund its students for everything. Of course that shouldn’t persuade students to pick Grinnell just for that reason if they love Kenyon more, but it could be a factor should a student want to do extensive research that would require funding.</p>

<p>Just my two cents, other than that your post was very agreeable.</p>

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<p>I just saw the Forbes top colleges list for this year with Colgate at number 13 and 36 among LACs and all US universities and colleges respectively. Most commendable and impressive, don’t you think?</p>

<p>Of course I would not mention it if 13 were not the lucky number of Colgate whose founding was credited to 13 men with 13 dollars and 13 prayers- as all alumni and students know.</p>

<p>Lucky to see those numbers repeated here!</p>

<p>Go 'gate!</p>