More Colleges Backing off SAT and ACT Admissions Rule

Applying to College
201

@ucbalumnus

Didn’t Dartmouth do a study a few years ago that found that even students who did well on AP tests didn’t do well in the next level course at Dartmouth (one of their justifications for not giving credit even??) I’ll see if I can find it.

As to #198 that is why I said the SAT would have to become way more common. We don’t know what the break down would be for the general population. Language tests, for instance, would not work with your standard since the vast majority of SAT II language test takers are native speakers, or at least speak some of the language at home.

For other, less popular subjects it’s impossible to know how the SAT world at large would do - but if we’re just adding it to the SAT/ACT test, it’s not doing anyone any good.

Anyway, it’s moot to me, I’m done with kids taking SAT tests in a few years a nothing signficant will change by then, and it sounds like the Princeton Review president will go on pulling down an nice fat 500k plus for herding poor HS kids into another local HS 3 or 4 Saturdays a year… Poor kids.

(btw, this from an article on the Dartmouth study I was thinking of:
"But Dartmouth also ran an independent experiment in its psychology department, asking all students who had earned a five on the AP psychology test, which would normally grant them course credit at Dartmouth, to take a placement test that was based on the final exam for intro psychology. Ninety percent of the students who earned a five on the AP test failed that test, according to Tell. The college then monitored students who, after failing the placement test, chose to take intro psychology, and found that they did not perform significantly better than did their peers who either hadn’t taken AP psychology or had scored less than a five on the test.

Though more than 100 students were involved in that study, Tell acknowledges that it is not necessarily universally applicable. Still, he said, it reveals what he and other members of the Committee on Instruction had observed since the committee started debating the use of AP scores 10 years ago: the exams did not seem to predict academic success.

“I suspect that students who are academically ambitious and take AP courses sometimes are much better-prepared, but that’s different, I think, from saying that they have already mastered the material in a college-level course,” Tell said."

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/01/18/dartmouth-end-use-advanced-placement-scores-credit

202

There have been plenty of studies about what happens to students whose test scores are misaligned with the college they attend. An example is at http://journals.sagepub.com/stoken/rbtfl/iAyUJ9v44wd1I/full . It found that attending a more selective college than corresponds to a student’s test schools increases chance of graduation by 7.8% for each SD SAT difference, beyond expected graduation at a matched test score school. After adding in controls for HS GPA, highest HS course level, and demographics the increase dropped to +3.2% chance of graduating for each SD difference. After also adding in controls for college institutional characteristics including public vs private, college demographics, and tuition; the increase dropped to a+0.5% chance of graduating for each SD – essentially no difference.

One way to think about it might be where would a lower relative stat football player be most likely to graduate – at Stanford where the football team’s “graduation success rate” has averaged more than 98% over the past 4 cohort years, in spite of having average SAT scores at least 2 SDs below rhe school’s average or at a match test score school like Baylor, where ~70% of the overall student body graduates?

There actually are some ~4.0 GPA and ~1100 SAT type students at HYPSM… type schools. Almost all of them have some kind of strong hook or especially unique background. Some do go on to be quite successful. For example, awhile back the CC poster Mr. Tubbs was accepted to Stanford with a 24 and 25 Math/Science ACT. He went on to get a co-terminal masters degree with honors, received Stanford’s highest award given to students (Dinkelspiel), and become the youngest elected official of his home town… starting the campaign while a student. He is currently the mayor of Stockton.

203

@Center

But that is the point: there are relatively few 4.0 students with 1100 SAT. GPA is a pretty good predictor of SAT/ACT scores. SAT themselves found only 16-18% of students “Highly Discrepent” in favor of HSGPA over SAT. (Note, another 16-18% are considered Highly Discrepent in favor of SAT - meaning low HSGPA and high SAT) and 68% are what you’d expect. So only 17% or so are even going to have a high HSGPA and low SAT, and fewer than that something as discrepent as a 4.0/1100.

Now, can those students who would be “highly discrepent” be identified without an SAT, that is the question.

One thing to think about: GPA is a very blunt tool. But once you look at specific grades per class, I would wager that 17% can be brought down very quickly. Some GPA is goosed by getting grades for gym or religion (remember, SAT GPA numbers are “self-reported” by the kids on the test.)

I would wager most good schools, once they dig in for 10 minutes into what specific grades are, could ID weaker candidates without SAT.

Remember, SAT is nothing but an extra data point for colleges. The question is whether they can come to the same correct conclusion with different, existing data points. Many already do. My argument is I bet they all could.

But I’ve said that a few times here, I think… lol.

204

They do not give credit toward the number of courses needed to graduate. However, they still give subject credit and advanced placement for some AP scores: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~reg/enrollment/credit_on_entrance_exemption_charts.html .

What I remember reading was specifically in the context of AP psychology (as you quoted), which is not listed as giving subject credit or advanced placement in the above link. Dartmouth’s psychology department basically confirms that at http://pbs.dartmouth.edu/undergraduate/curriculum/transfer-and-ap-credit .

205

To further emphasize differences between the Old and New SATs and the College Board’s change of position on prep, last spring, the College Board trumpeted a new study, https://www.collegeboard.org/releases/2017/average-score-gains-on-redesigned-sat

College Board says this is a good thing because (quoting Zachary Goldberg, senior director of media relations for the College Board):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/05/09/can-coaching-truly-boost-sat-scores-for-years-the-college-board-said-no-now-it-says-yes/?utm_term=.844b768a5955

206

Well, the point is moot anyway, since SAT subject tests are falling into obscurity at most colleges, because they are the non-default test (compared to the SAT/ACT). UC found that SAT II (as subject tests were called at some point in time) were more predictive of college GPA than SAT/ACT, but probably did not like the fact that requiring extra tests beyond the default SAT/ACT excluded more first generation and low income students who may not have heard that they were needed. Hence their lobbying to get the English SAT II moved into the SAT I (where it became the writing/essay section) so that they could drop the SAT II requirement (which used to be English, a math, and an applicant’s choice).

UC seems hesitant to drop standardized testing altogether (probably due to variation across high schools), but has de-emphasized it relative to HS GPA in admissions. They probably would prefer it if SAT subject tests were the default test (instead of the SAT/ACT), but that is not going to happen.

UC is not the only ones who feel this way about the relative value of SAT subject tests versus the SAT/ACT. Harvard’s admission director once said something similar in an interview.

207

Its a data point that is essentially free to colleges. So why would they give it up? Certainly not to save parents money for test fees or to allow kids more free time to volunteer or visit parks (or given the nature of a lot of high school kids, sleep in later on a Saturday). Some have gone to optional standardized tests. But that was for marketing purposes as much as anything.

208

Everything is an extra data point for colleges. If they collect enough data, any individual item can be excluded without much loss. Producing and processing all of that data is time consuming for everyone - both the applicants in making it and the adcoms in processing it. I still find it strange to single out the standardized tests, as it isn’t obvious they take more time per value than any other component, and they are the only aspect that can be clearly attributed to the student alone.

209

As we all probably know, the SAT/ACT are also gamed and sometimes cheated on. I wonder how often it happens, we only find out when CB/ACT cancel a whole country/date/venue’s scores because they become aware that the test was shared ahead of time or whatever other cheating method is used at that time.

210

@turtle17 Standardized test scores are the cheapest to analyze from the school’s perspective. A few numbers that appear on an application. Compare that to reading and evaluating essays or letters of recommendation or evaluating ECs and GPAs.

211

@turtle17

Except the other data points exist and don’t require more time from kids and more money from kids.

College already sit down and interpret data. But the SAT/ACT is just a pointless exercise beyond college admissions.

212

@turtle17 has a good point, that SAT/ ACT tests “are the only aspect that can be clearly attributed to the student alone,” even with the usual caveats about how they track with zip code & income. I repeat: to eliminate them would remove one of the few arrows in the quiver of the top students from the small public schools. The argument is already pretty entrenched that little Jared with his 3.3 uw average from a top BS or public should be admitted to a selective college over 4.0 uw Dorothy from podunk high due to the supposed vast difference in academic rigor and student preparation. Take away Dorothy’s tests & she’s really stranded.

213

If we are talking about highly selective colleges using a holistic approach, they generally consider the transcript in the context of the HS and related opportunities. Students who attend small, rural HSs that offer very few AP/DE/IB/… classes are not expected to take many of such classes. It doesn’t put them out of the running. Instead the selective colleges might be impressed by efforts to expand intellectual horizons through learning outside of the classroom, beyond just number of advanced classes. For example, suppose the kid from the small, rural high school with few advanced classes researched on the Internet about a group in rural Africa that was using a methane based fuel delivery system, with natural and inexpensive fuel from animals; then organized a local group of students and together built a similar design to help his community. That would be a big positive for admission chances at most holistic colleges. There are many ways to show attributes colleges value besides test scores and how advanced your local HS’s curriculum is, in the context of holistic applications.

In the end, it’s up to the college to choose what type of admission system they’d like to use, and there are a variety of different approaches. I think it’s good to have a lot of variety and for students to have a lot of different choices, both in terms of admission system and in terms of college experiences.

214

Jon Boeckenstedt’s Admissions Weblog “Admitting Things” has an excellent post on test optional admissions. To find it, Google “Jon Boeckenstedt Test Optional” (link cannot be embedded into a CC post). Lots of money quotes in there; I like these:
– “Tell Michael it was only business.”
– “It’s almost like money has something to do with college enrollment.”

215

@Data10 @Center

A huge # of Ivy jocks have had GPA/SAT imbalance over the years. Probably not a lot of 4.0/1100 (save a few extraordinarily special athletes.) But anyone with access to Naviance could pinpoint the recruited athlete stats pretty easily by matching rosters, LOIs etc.

There must be decent studies on their success rates vs. rest of great unwashed.

@ucbalumnus Yeah, UCSC had a study along those lines and the SAT folks themselves argue that GPA + SAT II subject are “most predictive.”

But again, and maybe Data or someone else whose more into this world knows this - has anyone done a study of “predictiveness” of finer bands of GPA? Has anyone gone in and broken down GPA from “self reported” to “core academic” - maybe finding a weighting for honors/AP/IB/Top Track systems?

It seems simply using self-reported GPA is intentionally blunting the instrument. A 3 - 3.5 year transcript as at least 12 - 20 unique core grades. Everything from number grades to trends to…

216

@LadyMeowMeow

But SAT/ACT line up with income more than just about anything…

217

UC studies on HS GPA all use some form of recalculated HS GPA as specified by UC, covering core academic a-g course work. Some studies mention comparison between unweighted and weighted (by UC rules) HS GPA.

Current UC reporting on HS GPA should be assumed (unless otherwise specified) to be the recalculated version using 10th-11th grade a-g course work, with +1 weighting for up to 8 semesters of honors courses as specified on the UC Doorways site (AP and IB courses are included in honors, but only some HS-designated honors courses count as honors for UC purposes). However, the 8 semester cap did not always exist in earlier times, so one has to be careful with older studies and reports.

218

@CaliDad2020 @Data10 I see all you’ve said. I’m just thinking that if you eliminate standardized tests, you remove the ability of small-school Dorothy to compete directly in the category of smarts/ IQ/ mental horsepower/ whatever you think the test tests. If she really is a lot smarter than boarding-school Jared, you’d like her to be able to show it. Currently, for example, Dorothy’s hypothetical one-sitting 1550 SAT looks decisively better than Jared’s super-scored 1480 because she’s coming from a “weak” school. We wouldn’t want a system where all the Dorothys have to become community organizers cum research team leaders while all the Jareds coast into college on the reputation of their supposedly “rigorous” high schools.

Please note that I’m not overly invested in my own point. I think Data10 is right to suggest that it’s getting easier every day for Dorothy to show academic prowess through AP self-study, online coursework, community colleges, etc. The cheapest, nearest, easiest thing is still the test, though.

219

@LadyMeowMeow

I don’t understand the idea that Adcoms can “holistically” evaluate a student with SAT but are incapable of “holistically” evaluating a student without SAT. Especially the ones that say they can.

Why do you believe that schools aren’t capable of evaluating that Dorothy from Podunk can succeed at their school - especially since if Podunk is lower income, her scores are likely to be unerweighted anyway?

I have an idea! Instead of SAT/ACT how about an on-line mini-writing course and a mini on-line math concepts course! Heck, we could even let Princeton run it (with Kahn) so they can keep their fancy salaries. Some instruction. Homework, final. Then at least there’d be some learning involved and it could adhere to “universal” standards… And it could be done from home so kids in Podunk who don’t want to drive all the way to the big city on a Saturday can still participate.

220

As an example, Stanford ranks applicants on a scale of 1-5 in the following categories – Tests, HS Record, Support (LORs), Non-academic, Intellectual Vitality, Self-presentation, and Reader’s Impression. They readers also have a sheet showing various stats such as interview score(s), what course rigor box the GC checked, recalculated GPA, class rank (if provided), first gen, and many others. If you eliminate tests, there still a lot of other criteria that are being used in this holistic evaluation and still a lot of other ways for students to show they are capable of being successful at Stanford, regardless of whether they go to a small high school or a big high school.

It’s also worthwhile to note that the SAT and ACT are marathon curriculum focused tests, not IQ tests. The College Board advertises large score increases through test prep and encourages students to do so. They recently wrote the following:

This doesn’t mean such testing is useless. They can be quite helpful in certain situations. For example, if a college’s admissions decisions are not holistic and essentially come to a combination of HS GPA + SAT, then eliminating the SAT and only looking at HS GPA is going to cause a notable decline in predicting things colleges value, like chance of graduating.