@CaliDad2020:
“I don’t know enough to tell you what studies say, but my guess is, if the “regular” Chem or Honors Chem was the top class in a particular school, the As in that class are likely on par with AP class “As” at a similar school in terms of ability to succeed and thrive in college, which is what we’re trying to measure, I think.”
You could make that guess, but I have strong reason to think that your guess is wrong.
Basically, your intuition is that a student who did well in a less challenging class should do just as well as a student who did well in a more challenging course. If that logic held everywhere, then there would never be a need for academic rigor, as students from a less and more rigorous program would do equally well at the next level.
@CaliDad2020:
“I don’t know enough to tell you what studies say, but my guess is, if the “regular” Chem or Honors Chem was the top class in a particular school, the As in that class are likely on par with AP class “As” at a similar school in terms of ability to succeed and thrive in college, which is what we’re trying to measure, I think.”
You could make that guess, but I have strong reason to think that your guess is wrong.
Basically, your intuition is that a student who did well in a less challenging class should do just as well as a student who did well in a more challenging course. If that logic held everywhere, then there would never be a need for academic rigor, as students from a less and more rigorous program would do equally well at the next level.
@CaliDad2020:
“I don’t know enough to tell you what studies say, but my guess is, if the “regular” Chem or Honors Chem was the top class in a particular school, the As in that class are likely on par with AP class “As” at a similar school in terms of ability to succeed and thrive in college, which is what we’re trying to measure, I think.”
You could make that guess, but I have strong reason to think that your guess is wrong.
Basically, your intuition is that a student who did well in a less challenging class should do just as well as a student who did well in a more challenging course. If that logic held everywhere, then there would never be a need for academic rigor, as students from a less and more rigorous program would do equally well at the next level.
Regular chemistry at an elite prep school or public magnet school may be similarly or more rigorous than AP chemistry at a typical high school. But there are probably far more poorly funded high schools where the regular chemistry is a typical high school chemistry course that is less rigorous than the AP chemistry that it may want to offer, but does not have the funding to offer it for the 10 or so students per year interested in it.
@lastone03 I’d be interested to know which kids choose to place out.
My D’s college doesn’t offer AP credit for any courses, so there’s little point to doing it, unless you really want to get going on advanced Chem (as you can ask to place out of Gen Chem and go onto the next).
@CaliDad2020 There is no rule that says a college prep Chem student is forbidden to sit for the AP exam. The best way to know if what is being taught is apples to apples is to have the students sit for the exam. I am sure there are some kids in college prep Chem that would pass the exam and be excellent college students. Some won’t. Same with AP kids. But to me, a bigger measure of whether or not a student will be successful in college is tied to a myriad of social factors that are not being mentioned in this thread.
It doesn’t address how many kids successfully complete an AP course then skip the college equivalent.
I doubt such stats exist, as it is a personal decision a student makes in college and/or a college credit/skip class policy and both of those would vary a lot from kid to kid and college to college.
@OHMomof2 Colleges vary greatly on what they will and will not accept with regard to AP credits. A lot of public universities are being pressured to take “3’s” for first level courses to help kids get in and out of college in 4 years. The most prestigious schools tend to only accept 4’s and 5’s. I’m not sure where your student goes, but I haven’t run across a school in our searches that doesn’t accept AP credits. Thanks for letting me know.
As for as my situation goes, I have 2 college grads and a senior in high school. My oldest took a couple of AP’s but didn’t feel he knew the material well enough so he didn’t sit for the exams. In college, he switched majors and got behind on credits which meant he needed to take a May term and 2 summer school classes (which cost us more money). He graduated in August instead of May but still graduated, technically, in 4 years. My daughter sat for a couple AP exams and took 6 credits with her to college which was great because it allowed her to have an additional minor and still graduate in 4 years. My youngest will be taking 15 credits with him, which will give him additional flexibility to place out of some gen ed classes and add a double major if he wants to.
D goes to Amherst which does not give credit, certain departments might let you use one for advanced standing. Williams is about the same but does take a couple for credit.
Those policies are unusual, I think, but I haven’t seen a comprehensive list.
@ucbalumnus Caltech will allow advanced placement and sometimes gives credit but it’s not automatic.
[quote]
Course credit and/or placement in an accelerated program is sometimes granted as deemed appropriate by the department faculty. The awarding of Caltech course credit takes place at the time of registration each fall. /quote
Does that mean that I will not have to show my SAT? Because I got a horrible 1140 and I know that is not really good enough to get into any colleges at all.
@OHMomof2 Caltech gives placement/place-out tests over the summer before freshman year in math, physics, chemistry, CS, and writing. AP scores are not considered. Students can attempt to talk their way into advanced classes based on prior experience despite their lack of prerequisite classes. (This is true at many universities.) Gaining additional credits at Caltech is mostly irrelevant, since registering for 12 quarters is required for graduation.
@lastone03 I believe the thinking is that they want the classes to be taken at THEIR SCHOOL. They don’t see AP courses as being equal. In my D’s experience, the ones she “retook” were not anything like - and much harder than - her AP courses, but YMMV.
Also, these are 4 year residential colleges that do not make anyone declare a major before the end of sophomore year. The expensive mistakes that can be made at large public school (and IDK maybe smaller privates too) where students begin with, say, Bio as a major then decide to switch to CS and can’t fit it in 4 years really doesn’t happen.Their 4 year grad rates are very high.
It looks like West Point, Brown, Dartmouth, Amherst, Colby, Williams, Caltech, Harvey Mudd and Soka all do not accept any AP scores for credit, with several more schools limiting them by department or by an overall limit.
[quote]
At the University of Pennsylvania, French, physics and a few other departments award credit or advanced standing based on a student’s AP scores. But other departments, including chemistry and biology, found that students who used AP scores to skip introductory courses fared worse in upper-division classes than those who took the full sequence at Penn because they weren’t as well-prepared.
…some colleges are pushing back, saying the AP courses aren’t on par with their classes. They also say that too many exemptions from classes can take away from a shared undergraduate experience with other students.
@OHMomof2 Thanks for sharing your research. It would seem to me if the colleges are going to push these kids to take all of this rigor in high school, spend $90 a pop on the tests, and be stressed beyond what is normal and healthy, than the kids should get credit for doing so. This comment from one of your articles is disturbing to me:
"Admissions officers from some elite colleges say they still expect to see high-school transcripts loaded with AP courses, but don’t give much more than a pat on the back—and possibly an offer of admission—for the hard work. "
No wonder so many colleges and universities are investing in mental health centers and meditation rooms.
Thankfully there are plenty of other instituitions that don’t feel the same way and provide options so students can choose what is best for them and their families.
“Nationwide, 66% of colleges and universities awarded some sort of credit for a score of three on an AP exam this year, up from 64% in the 2015-16 academic year. But policies are far from uniform. According to the College Board, which oversees the AP program, nearly 4,000 U.S. colleges that accept AP scores have about 51,000 separate policies on awarding credit for the exams.”
However, changing major late in second year to a major with long prerequisite sequences may not be possible without delaying graduation, even if there are no capacity or administrative limitations on changing major, and no requirement to declare major early.
High four year graduation rates may have more to do with strong incoming students than anything else.